Thread: Gypsy dance?

Originally Posted by goddessyasaman

I read this in some books about the Dom People, but it was a while back, I have it posted on my website, when i was studying up on gypsies and india I'm sure it's on the web some where, I'm sure someone had to have copied some of the text. I will check but these are some of the notes I have anyway.



"Ghawazi" (Gypsies)The Dom people which they are believed to be related to the Domba people of India,the Domari language that they spoke suggest that they may have haled from the indian subcontinent. It was around the 18th centery that they danced in egypt. It is said that the ghawazi style could have gave rise to the Egyptian raqs sharqi, I think it said that in 1834 they were banshed from egypt or parts of.

Still does not tell ya much, they say Belly dance is a ancient dance veiled in mystery and they are not make that up

I'd love to know where you got this if you can find it again. The Ghawazee are acknowledged to be Nawari for the most part, though you also hear Sombati and Sinti listed by some Ghawazee as their heritage. I haven't ever found any reference to them as Dom/Rrom, but I have found references where they specifically state that they do not consider themselves as "Gypsies" of any kind or Rromani specifically.

**edit: Found it. It looks like it was originally on a random web page and then on wikipedia where it got picked up by a lot of other pages and sources. If anyone knows the original source material (book or article) that this is from, please let me know so that I can add it to my research pile.

If you do a search on Youtube for Gypsy dance you end up with a hodgepodge of stuff from all over the place. The videos that appear to be more "Rom" do not show all the swishy skirts, etc. This is being said by someone who is not an expert but only based on my very limited knowledge.

Originally Posted by Sara

Well, the word 'Gypsy' is commonly believed to have been created wen the Roma first arrived in Europe, as the Europeans believed them to be 'Egyptians' which they shortened down to 'Gyptians' and then 'Gypsy'. It is a pejoritve term, which nowadays as been expanded to include various nomadic or settled peoples. I myself am unsure of the origins of the word 'Gypsy' purely because I do appreciate that in contiental Europe, particularly southern and eastern, the equivilent there is 'Tsigan' or a variation on that word. Now I don't beleive that this word originated out of the same reasoning as the word Gypsy did. I'm still researching this more, and so far I am not enitrely convinced. Still trying to make up my mind.

The origin of the word "Gypsy" stated above is actually the known etymology of the word, not a common but unproven belief. The word indeed began when the Europeans thought the Romani people arriving were Egyptians (which didn't turn out to be true). I think in some places people literally called them Egyptians, which came to be shortened to "Gypsy."

"Tsigan" is a different word, in a different language, that comes from the Greek word "atsinganoi" which means "untouchable."

The existence of another word with a different origin that describes the same thing, in another language, or even in the same language, does not disprove the origin of this word.

Originally Posted by Belly Love

From what I know, Gypsies are technically just a group of roaming people- people who migrate often. They can be of any ethnicity or from any country. Romani Gypsy just happens to be the most well known.

This would describe the adjective "gypsy" - lower case g.
"Gypsy" according to the OED is ""member of a wandering people of Hindu origin with dark hair and skin, living often by basket-making, horse-dealing, fortune-telling etc. and speaking a language related to Hindi". Not that everyone would agree with this - but the ethnic origin (and the captial G) is relevant - so many "gypsies" in the UK are not "Gypsies" . Many people consider the label as a slur.

Originally Posted by Belly Love

There can be a negative association with Gypsies (especially hundreds of years ago) that they are theiving, poor, witches, etc. Since they don't put down roots anywhere, own land or have traditional jobs they were often times not highly respected peoples.

Actually in Hungary, until last year, Rom were permitted to steal a certain amount as a means of "making a living". I think it was 10 000Ft - which may not be much to you or I, but is a couple of weeks income to the poor non-Rom they were stealing from

Originally Posted by Belly Love

I'm interested in doing a Gypsy belly dance, which will be more about the styling than anything. I think this might be why people associate Gypsy with belly dance, besides tribal stylings to be similar, they can be known to sing, dance and play music in the streets for money- so the idea of dancing for money combined with similar styling might be why one throws the word Gypsy in there.

Actually, this stereotype is one that most annoys those of an ethnic Rom/Sinti background. Their lives are often very hard - read Bury Me Standing by Isabel Fonseca for an idea how many live (who haven't (or cannot) integrate into mainstream society and have more pride than to become thieves and prostitutes)

Originally Posted by Aziyade

There is no such thing as "Gypsy Style" belly dance and it drives me CRAZY that teachers still promote this. Throwing on a dozen hip scarves over a full skirt whilst wearing a babuskha does not make your performance remotely "Gypsy" anything.

Wouldn't that be like saying Gypsy doesn't exist? Any belly dance can be a style of anything if that's what one chooses. If one is dressed like a clown while belly dancing and calls it a clown belly dance, would you say clown belly dances don't exist?

Originally Posted by Aziyade

It's a Western fantasy -- all the skirt swishing and tambourine banging and it's fine (albeit WAY overdone) if advertised as Oriental Fantasy, but to call it "Gypsy" anything is not only being deliberately ignorant but also borders on racist.

I think this may be quite extreme. I wouldn't think someone who is labeling their dance "gypsy" is borderline racist. After all, Gypsy doesn't just refer to a specific group of people, it's also used to refer to someone as a roaming person. This is common knowledge, it's not just something I'm making up.
Millions of things as we know them today derived from something different. That's not necessarily a negative thing.
You, yourself said that Gypsy people roamed because they were forced to, so I don't see why calling someone a Gypsy in reference to them being a roaming person is "Western fantasy". It derived from truth. I'm sure there is truth to some of the Gypsy people having uncommon jobs as well, seeing as they moved often.

Originally Posted by Kashmir

This would describe the adjective "gypsy" - lower case g.

Yes, you are correct. I should be using the lowercase g when appropriate

Originally Posted by Kashmir

Actually, this stereotype is one that most annoys those of an ethnic Rom/Sinti background. Their lives are often very hard - read Bury Me Standing by Isabel Fonseca for an idea how many live (who haven't (or cannot) integrate into mainstream society and have more pride than to become thieves and prostitutes)

I agree, it is a negative stereotype. Social classes were much more defined and respected years ago.

Some of this just got me thinking about how some dancers don't like belly dance being "fantasy". Well, I understand that it's not fantasy in cultures where it's common, but in cultures where it is not common, like in the U.S., it is fantasy for a lot of people. If a group of African people, in Africa, started line dancing to country music, they may see it as fantasy as well. Imagine if they weren't wearing the exact proper attire and called it a "Cowboy" dance and then some actual ranchers from Texas saw it- do you think the ranchers would think those African people were racist?

This is giving me a lot to chew over. Let's see if I have this right:

Using the "G" word, unless it is a specific group who labels themselves that way, is like using the "N"word. Gypsy with the capital letter is an ethnic group and gypsy with the lower case g is the blanket term ethnic slur? I'm still murky on this differentiation.

Is it generally accepted now that doing gypsy fantasy dance is racist or disrespectful, and perpetuates stereotypes?

It is the common consensus of the forum that they did not bring belly dance with them or invent it, but did have some influences on stylization in the Middle East, Turkey and North African areas where some lived- yes?

Originally Posted by Jane

Using the "G" word, unless it is a specific group who labels themselves that way, is like using the "N"word. Gypsy with the capital letter is an ethnic group and gypsy with the lower case g is the blanket term ethnic slur? I'm still murky on this differentiation.

I think I glazed over the part where someone mentioned the N word.
Gypsy refers to an actual ethnic group, gypsy (lowercase g) refers to a nomadic person. That's how I see it anyway- no negative connotations whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Jane

Is it generally accepted now that doing gypsy fantasy dance is racist or disrespectful, and perpetuates stereotypes?

I hope not. I certainly don't feel this way.

Originally Posted by Aziyade

No correction -- that is how a lot of American dancers view it. It's a mishmash of whatever, done with whatever mishmash of costuming, and to whatever mishmash of music you want: Alabina, Balkan folk, Greek music.

To me it's ridiculous, but I've seen so much of it that I'm ready to barf, AND I've seen it passed off as ethnic dance way way way too many times. A deliberate fantasy is one thing. Deliberate ignorance is another.

Well, if you think you're sick now, empty your barf bag, 'cause you're fixing to refill it: try Gypsy Bellydancer Warrior Princesses...with swords.

Yyyyyyeah.

I have to admit, although I knew that there are some here that are not into the Ren Faire scene, I didn't stop to think about what social, political, or ethnic messages our troupe is sending out. I dance at Ren Faires because it's one of the few "family-oriented" venues I have the opportunity to dance in, besides art festivals. I'm not ready for restaurants, and I refuse to dance in bars (which, unfortunately, make up a number of my troupe's performances ). Now I'm starting to feel guilty about Ren Faires.

But then again, our local Ren Faires themselves are anything but historically accurate.

Originally Posted by Farasha Hanem

Well, if you think you're sick now, empty your barf bag, 'cause you're fixing to refill it: try Gypsy Bellydancer Warrior Princesses...with swords.

Yyyyyyeah.

See, I don't see anything wrong with this! He he Is obviously fantasy... although, I have a feeling I wouldn't actually want to watch it.

Originally Posted by Farasha Hanem

I have to admit, although I knew that there are some here that are not into the Ren Faire scene, I didn't stop to think about what social, political, or ethnic messages our troupe is sending out. Now I'm starting to feel guilty about Ren Faires.

I don't think there is anything wrong with Ren Faires (except spiritual stuff I don't personally agree with) for the following reason: it's just fantasy and everyone knows it. It's like watching a play or a movie- no one expects that they are historically accurate with the costuming or the music, it's just for entertainment.

Btw- what's it like dancing at the Ren Faire? Do you audition? How is the pay? You don't have to answer if it's too personal

What is a Ren fair? I hear people mention them alot. I don't think we have them in Britain that I'm aware of. What kind of things do people perform there?

As for gypsy style belly dance, I think it does perpetuate the stereotype but that's also because those who do this dance style tend to have an interest in the stereotype. I don't think anybody means to be disrespectful or racist etc, they just tend to be swept away the the 'mystery' and 'romanticism' of it all. They neglect reality a tad lol. Despite this, I have found some of the stuff out there a bit infuriating. For me it is because it is taking a part of a persons culture, in this case usually just the offensive name, and overlooking the actual culture. Even if they just tried to get the dance right and ignored everything else, it would be a start. But a lot do not even do that.

My problem with the fantasy stereotype is that some people seem to envy something which does not exist and either try to emulate it or turn a bit nasty. For the other stereotypes (ie/stealing/dirty) they can be exceptionally insenstive and racist.

Yame: Thank you for saring that info with me. I think that where I get confused, is that now in European countries they say Gypsy (or variants) too. I guess it must have spread across from England? Or do you think that that they were called that in Europe too along side Tsigan/Gitan/Czgany?