Thread: Gypsy dance?

If someone is dressed as a clown while dancing authentic Egyptian belly dance, what would you call that? It may be unappealing, but it's still a clown belly dance, like it or not. Fantasy goes without saying sometimes.

I don't like the term "white", yet, it's used all of the time and accepted. Although, I don't think people who use it are racist because it's not used in a derogatory sense. The N word was commonly used in a derogatory sense and this is common knowledge. I have never heard anyone personally use the G word in a derogatory manner nor do I know anyone who thinks being a gypsy is a negative thing. The G word is not commonly used nowdays as a derogatory term, the N word is. Even if someone used the N word unknowingly, that wouldn't make them a racist. Ignorant to the word and it's history, yes.

Too much politicing in dance takes away from its purpose.

To Seona,

I know that for a lot of people Gypsy is the only word they've ever heard Romani people, new age travellers and Iris travellers referred to. For me, I personally feel frustrated by governments and organisations who are asking you to tick this 'Gypsy' box, when they have the manpower and obligation to get it right and research.

A lot of my mates at uni couldn't quite get their head around it for ages, so I couldn't be angry with them wen they said Gypsy, instead I cose to educate them, and now they all say Romani. I think there should be some sort of cultural education in schools or something not just about Roma but all ethnic cultures in britains. Old and current.

Originally Posted by Belly Love

The G word is not commonly used nowdays as a derogatory term, the N word is. Even if someone used the N word unknowingly, that wouldn't make them a racist. Ignorant to the word and it's history, yes.

I'm afraid it is. :-( From living on a camp where people would graffiti the place, to school, college, uni, even my great nan of 82 (who is the nicest woman you will ever meet) had 'Gypsy dogs' sprayed on her caravan. At least in the Uk Gypsy is a very loaded term. Some travellers embrace it, but for my family personally it is degrading and upsetting. We are quite proud you see

Originally Posted by Belly Love

If someone is dressed as a clown while dancing authentic Egyptian belly dance, what would you call that? It may be unappealing, but it's still a clown belly dance, like it or not. Fantasy goes without saying sometimes.

No - it is mis-costumed Egyptian belly dance. A type of fusion perhaps. To be "clown belly dance'" you'd have to fuse real clowning with belly dance - I saw it done very well once but the result was a clown doing belly dance.

Originally Posted by Belly Love

I have never heard anyone personally use the G word in a derogatory manner nor do I know anyone who thinks being a gypsy is a negative thing. The G word is not commonly used nowdays as a derogatory term, the N word is. Even if someone used the N word unknowingly, that wouldn't make them a racist. Ignorant to the word and it's history, yes.

The fact that people seriously consider going "Gypsy dance" with swishing skirts (showing legs is offensive in traditional Rom culture - let alone the thighs); that "Gypsies" spend their time singing and dancing; that their lives are one big romantic fun time (I've even heard of a dancer adding "theft" to her dance as she went from table to table - as a "joke"); that people do not listen to the voices of the people they are pretending to be (but just as a tourist they can go back to their privilege any time they get bored) - all this says to me that the "G word" is being used in a derogatory manner - through sheer ignorance. I bit like saying the darkies like working in the fields because it reminds them of home - and they have the minds of children so wouldn't know how to handle being paid. They are all happy.

Go back a few decades. Europe. My mother was appalled that my father's mother paid the Rom who did odd jobs for her in food. My mother (first generation NZer) thought it was demeaning. But, as Dad pointed out - money wouldn't be much use as most people would not sell (food or anything else) to cigány (and no - non-English speaking countries do not use the English word to describe these people )

Originally Posted by Belly Love

I have never heard anyone personally use the G word in a derogatory manner nor do I know anyone who thinks being a gypsy is a negative thing.

Just because you aren't aware of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are tons of racial slurs I have never personally heard anyone say. That does not mean that they aren't racial slurs.

What we're trying to explain in this thread and the history one, is that a great deal of Americans ARE ignorant of the connotations of some of these words we toss around so carelessly.

Look, to be blunt, the movie Clerks 2 dealt with this issue. Randall, a while guy, uses the term "porch monkey" to describe a kid. His co-workers are astonished that he doesn't realize this is racial slur.

When I was in school, I learned that a female Native American was called a "squaw." Now that term is recognized as a pejorative -- whether it started out that way or not.

The G word is not commonly used nowdays as a derogatory term, the N word is.

Yes it is. We have given you specific examples. Check out
Black List for more. And as NRADO describes, it's considered derogatory to use the term "Gypsy" in a way that is offensive or contrary to the culture, or to portray them in such a fashion.

Even if someone used the N word unknowingly, that wouldn't make them a racist. Ignorant to the word and it's history, yes.

This is exactly why NRADO and others attempt to EDUCATE the public. You are not a racist if you use the term in error. You ARE a racist if, after being educated about the topic, you refuse to acknowledge that it is a derogatory term, and/or continue to portray "Gypsies" as something out of a Stevie Nicks album.

Too much politicing in dance takes away from its purpose.

Um, I don't know if you realize this, but dance (and the arts in general) have been politicized for centuries.

Originally Posted by Aziyade

Farasha, I think you are probably a LOVELY and amazing dancer! Like I said, I love good fantasy -- Hahbi Ru has always captured my heart with their "faux-loric" approach to dance. And I love Ren Faires! I love to watch the tribal groups in Kentucky do the Highland Ren Faire -- it's BEAUTIFUL and exciting and FUN!

But they don't call it "gypsy," because the organizer knows better.


Think about it -- just a few decades ago EVERYBODY was using the word Nigger. Now some of you will probably flinch when you read it, and I admit to a certain amount of shame just typing it, but we ALL know how loaded this word is and we recognize it as a word that we no longer want used.

Parallel situation here, ya know?


As for the fantasy dance, or the skirt dance, or the tambourine dance -- by all means do it! Dance it! Just label it appropriately.

Well, I think the problem in my situation is that my teacher makes much ado about the word "gypsy." I thought it was all right, and even used it as one of the tags in the videos I just uploaded to YouTube. I'm so sorry, I didn't know the word was so loaded. I'll edit my vids and remove that tag tonight on all of them.

Now, the question I have is, what do you do when your teacher doesn't seem to realize how highly charged the word "gypsy/Gypsy" is? I don't want to appear to be some little know-it-all upstart, so what can I do to help educate my troupe without hurting feelings, or being insubordinate?

I just realized we call our tent, "The Gypsy Camp."

Hang on, let me find one of my videos that shows my teacher MC'ing our show...

*comes back* Hmmmm, I could have sworn our teacher called us "gypsies" during the beginning or the end of one of our sets, but I only have the first set uploaded to YouTube. I'll have to go through the rest of my unedited vids to see if I can find it.

This may take awhile.

Originally Posted by Belly Love

See, I don't see anything wrong with this! He he Is obviously fantasy... although, I have a feeling I wouldn't actually want to watch it.

"Faire" enough!

Originally Posted by Belly Love

I don't think there is anything wrong with Ren Faires (except spiritual stuff I don't personally agree with) for the following reason: it's just fantasy and everyone knows it. It's like watching a play or a movie- no one expects that they are historically accurate with the costuming or the music, it's just for entertainment.

I definitely agree with you on the spiritual stuff.

Originally Posted by Belly Love

Btw- what's it like dancing at the Ren Faire? Do you audition? How is the pay? You don't have to answer if it's too personal

It is sooooo much fun! No one has to audition (at least in our troupe). We practice on our dances throughout the year, and whenever it's performance time, it's understood that the advanced class is in the front line on stage, the intermediate class in the second line, and the beginner/intermediate class in the back line (depending on which routines they've worked on and know). We don't get paid personally, we only receive tips at the end of each set, but this money goes towards necessary things like a new tent for changing in when the old one wears out, upkeep and replacement of our personal PA system, CD's, etc. Everyone in the troupe benefits from the tips, because it helps us to make sure we have the equipment we need to continue to bring awesome performances.

Oh, I should have mentioned that the only criteria as far as our teacher is concerned is that we know the dance well enough to be able to perform it by yourself in front of an audience (even if it's just the class), without getting flustered or lost. Regular stage performance is an entirely different matter. We have to do the dances correctly, or we're not allowed to do that dance, and we must show up for dress rehearsal before the performance.

Rats, I double-posted...

Originally Posted by Yame

My other question is, where does tambourine dance come from? Is it just a completely made up fantasy thing, or are there actual dances, even if non-Gypsy, that use it? I know how to recognize some real gypsy dances, like Rajasthani and Turkish Romani, and know they look nothing like the gypsy fantasy dances that are popular here in the US, but I thought the tamborine thing had come from an actual dance... maybe one that I'd never seen before, but I didn't think it was completely made up.

When I took Artemis Mourat's workshop on Roma dance about 10 years ago, she said that one of the topics she was researching was the question of whether there ever had been a tradition of using a tambourine in Romany dance. As of then, she had not yet been able to find such a thing, though she said she had further research planned on the topic. So, she didn't say "No, tambourine is associated with Romany dance", but neither had she yet found any evidence of there being a link. So her conclusion was that there's probably not a link, but she was keeping an open mind in case new evidence should come to her attention. I don't know whether she has found any such evidence in the 10 years since I took that workshop.

As for whether there ever actually was a tambourine dance for some ethnic group in the past, the closest evidence I've been able to come suggesting the possibility is the Bible. Below are some references in which "timbrel" and "dance" appear together. "Timbrel" is the name of an ancient Hebrew frame drum that resembled the modern-day tambourine:

As you read the references below, please note that they're not necessarily claiming that the timbrel was utilized as a dance prop. I think in most of these cases the timbrel actually is NOT being described as a dance prop, but rather as a musical instrument that someone is playing while someone else dances. But read the passages and draw your own conclusions:


Jeremiah 31:4 "I will build you up again,
and you, Virgin Israel, will be rebuilt.
Again you will take up your timbrels
and go out to dance with the joyful"


Exodus 15:20 "Then Miriam the prophet, Aaron’s sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women followed her, with timbrels and dancing."


Judges 11:34 "When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter."


1 Samuel 18:6 "When the men were returning home after David had killed the Philistine, the women came out from all the towns of Israel to meet King Saul with singing and dancing, with joyful songs and with timbrels and lyres."


Psalm 149:3 "Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with timbrel and harp."


Psalm 150:4 "praise him with timbrel and dancing, praise him with the strings and pipe,"

Originally Posted by Sara

My bf's mum when I complained said that it was the common term and people knew what it meant and didn't know what Romani meant. I was sooo angry. Just because people can't be bothered to learn doesn't mean we should sacrifice our cultural name for their ease. Why should I indulge their ignorance? (sorry for ranting. I still get wound up lol).

Well, the only people who really NEED to know what the term means are those who actually are members of that ethnic group, right? And chances are actual Roma would know the term "Roma" and know that it applied to them, wouldn't they?

Who cares whether random non-Roma people know the term or not? they wouldn't be candidates to check the box anyway!

Originally Posted by shiradotnet

Well, the only people who really NEED to know what the term means are those who actually are members of that ethnic group, right? And chances are actual Roma would know the term "Roma" and know that it applied to them, wouldn't they?

Who cares whether random non-Roma people know the term or not? they wouldn't be candidates to check the box anyway!

Well, I think it is important what non-roma people called us. I think people should be educated that we are not called Gypsies even Traveller and Romani people. Many call themselves Gypsy now because if you say anything other people look at you all confused. Slowly we're adopting the word ourselves. If people are not educated, and this terminology continues to be used, things will never change. We'll always have a fantasy attached to us and negative connotations. I think that in a time when everything is sooo PC (ie/ now it is bah bah multi-cultural sheep) that Romani people and Travellers should have the same respect shown to them.