Thread: Gypsy dance?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsd9aozgsSg

That episode was quite interesting. Albeit it was about Irish Travellers with only one Romani guy, it is a snippet of life for Romani and Traveller people in the UK.

Agreed!

This topic has lots of aspects, the word gypsy it's self is now being recognised as a slur, and the fantasy dance aspect oppose to real dance. I totally see why people aren't comfortable with it. First they have thier own music and dance and also if you look at history these are persecuted people, to which continues to this day sadly.

Originally Posted by Sara

To Seona,


I know that for a lot of people Gypsy is the only word they've ever heard Romani people, new age travellers and Iris travellers referred to. For me, I personally feel frustrated by governments and organisations who are asking you to tick this 'Gypsy' box, when they have the manpower and obligation to get it right and research.

A lot of my mates at uni couldn't quite get their head around it for ages, so I couldn't be angry with them wen they said Gypsy, instead I cose to educate them, and now they all say Romani. I think there should be some sort of cultural education in schools or something not just about Roma but all ethnic cultures in britains. Old and current.

Hey Farasha!
I hope you don't feel bad! I guess it's just an eye opener and a bit of a shock to discover that what you do, from a place of not bad intent, is considered bad taste/dergatory. You must feel awkward now. Maybe you could try and drop it into a conversation one day, if you feel that's a good idea!

I think maybe in the US you don't get to hear much about the Roma/travelling people, so perhaps in some minds there, maybe some have romantic/ fantasies about thier lifestyles, when in fact it's a million miles from the truth. .....Maybe due to media- being far from Europe, issues may not be reported.
(thats a generic comment, not intended at anyone personally

QUOTE=Farasha Hanem;182336]Well, I think the problem in my situation is that my teacher makes much ado about the word "gypsy." I thought it was all right, and even used it as one of the tags in the videos I just uploaded to YouTube. I'm so sorry, I didn't know the word was so loaded. I'll edit my vids and remove that tag tonight on all of them.

Now, the question I have is, what do you do when your teacher doesn't seem to realize how highly charged the word "gypsy/Gypsy" is? I don't want to appear to be some little know-it-all upstart, so what can I do to help educate my troupe without hurting feelings, or being insubordinate?

I just realized we call our tent, "The Gypsy Camp."

Hang on, let me find one of my videos that shows my teacher MC'ing our show...

*comes back* Hmmmm, I could have sworn our teacher called us "gypsies" during the beginning or the end of one of our sets, but I only have the first set uploaded to YouTube. I'll have to go through the rest of my unedited vids to see if I can find it.

This may take awhile. [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Farasha Hanem

Now, the question I have is, what do you do when your teacher doesn't seem to realize how highly charged the word "gypsy/Gypsy" is? I don't want to appear to be some little know-it-all upstart, so what can I do to help educate my troupe without hurting feelings, or being insubordinate?

There is no easy answer to this, and I alienated my first teacher because of something similar. I was living next door to an Egyptian family, and had developed a circle of Egyptian friends. They commented upon some things that Americans do that they found very offensive (wearing face veils, for one) and I just sort of casually mentioned that in class, only to be told something like well we don't want to stifle people's creativity just because some _Arab_ might be offended. (think of a sneering tone of voice when you say "Arab.") That was the beginning of the end for me and her.

A lot of dancers are heavily invested in their personal myths. Suhaila has some very strange (to me) beliefs about dance that she learned from her mother. It's unlikely that she's going to throw out the education she got from her mother in favor of some random student's research. We girls can be very possessive of our mommies and our legacy!

A start might be to get dvds of real Romany dance and maybe organize a video night? Or you could introduce the subject through music -- although the term "Gypsy Jazz" does seem to be acceptable to musicians playing a specific kind of Rom-derived music. (confused much? I know.)

I'm not sure -- the teachers that I've encountered who promote the "Gypsy" thing usually don't address the controversy. Most students who know better sort of turn a blind eye to it. I don't think ignoring it is the right approach, but I'm not sure how to bring it up without risk.

Maybe other dancers will have suggestions??

I might spin this off into a new thread....

Originally Posted by seona

I think maybe in the US you don't get to hear much about the Roma/travelling people, so in minds there they have romantic fantasies about thier lifestyles, when in fact it's a million miles from the truth.

So am I strange that I've never considered it romantic ever? There was a family of "Gypsies" that used to come through my home town once a year. The life I saw (what little of it I saw) never appealed in any way.

Originally Posted by Ariadne

So am I strange that I've never considered it romantic ever? There was a family of "Gypsies" that used to come through my home town once a year. The life I saw (what little of it I saw) never appealed in any way.

No, it's not strange. You were exposed to the reality, and so the fantasy never took hold.

A lot of preteen girls have romantic fantasies about being ballerinas. When my friends saw my ripped up feet, and saw how much I had to work just to stay afloat in the class, that pretty much shattered that romantic fantasy for them.

Originally Posted by seona

I think maybe in the US you don't get to hear much about the Roma/travelling people, so in minds there they have romantic fantasies about thier lifestyles, when in fact it's a million miles from the truth

I think perhaps this is true of my country, or at least my little neck of the woods. Where I live (which is smack-dab in the middle of Oklahoma), we don't have any exposure to real Roma people, at least as far as I know. Native Americans, African Americans, quite a lot of Mexicans (of which I'm half), Germans, even small settlements of Vietnamese, and people from India in the metro area, but no Roma.

What little exposure we have of them is usually found in Hollywood (think Maureen O'Hara and Disney's versions of "The Hunchback of Notre Dame"). Our bellydance community in this state can perfectly be described as "mish-mash." Same can be said of our Ren Faire community. You see a lot of young people dressed in fairy wings and sparklies along with black/white makeup, Skittles-colored hair, and crazy hairdos. xD I think they realize they're not being historically accurate, but I think it's their way of having fun during Ren Faire season.

As for my little bellydance group, I think my teacher is one of the more well-known ones in the state. She's on TV a lot, and our class also has opportunities to appear on TV, too. My teacher says that she teaches Egyptian style, but from what I've been exposed to here on the forum, I would say she teaches American-style Oriental, with this and that thrown in. She attends a lot of workshops, is a Bhuzz member, and a former physical therapist, and is very meticulous about making sure her students "do the moves correctly" so we don't injure ourselves or look awful onstage. She also tells us we need to "feel the music," but doesn't expound on that.

I love my teacher very much. Although she's like a drill sergeant with a sense of humor in class, she's very warm, kind-hearted, into many causes, and seems to have a respect for all life. One day she stopped practice to pick up a spider with her bare hands, and gently put him outside. I have a lot of respect for her. She just seems to have her own ideas about bellydance.

I've encouraged her to join our forum, but I don't think she's a member here, otherwise she probably would have said something to me by now. I would love to have some of our teachers here on the forum do a workshop with us in hopes that perhaps she might receive some eye-opening insights herself, because there are other areas of bellydance that I silently disagree with her on.

She seemed thrilled with the idea of having Tarik do a workshop in our area, but nothing has come of it so far. I don't think she has contacted him. I would love to have not only him come, but some of our other members here, too. Maybe it would be a way of exposing her to many of the things we talk about here, and encourage her to join our forum. I hope. There are other teachers in our state, but they're too far-flung for me to be able to attend their classes, and I don't have a desire to leave my class. Even if I did find another teacher, I think a lot of the myths/ideas that are prevalent in my group are also the general consensus of the teachers here in our state.

Originally Posted by Aziyade

I might spin this off into a new thread....

*looks above at my mini novel post* I think that would be an excellent idea, Aziyade, since my problem seems to be quite involved. If the mods of this section would like, they can take my post/posts, lift them out, and put it in its own thread. I would love everyone's input.

Sorry, I can't seem to edit my post from the phone without messing it up. 

I would never, ever, EVER knowingly disparage against anyone's race, ever. This thread has been an eye-opener for me, and since my teacher is well-respected in Oklahoma and has a lot of exposure, my wish is for her to be the best educator she can possibly be.

Originally Posted by Sara

Well, I think it is important what non-roma people called us. I think people should be educated that we are not called Gypsies even Traveller and Romani people. Many call themselves Gypsy now because if you say anything other people look at you all confused. Slowly we're adopting the word ourselves. If people are not educated, and this terminology continues to be used, things will never change. We'll always have a fantasy attached to us and negative connotations. I think that in a time when everything is sooo PC (ie/ now it is bah bah multi-cultural sheep) that Romani people and Travellers should have the same respect shown to them.

You and I actually do agree. I'll try to clarify what I meant.

I feel that a form asking what someone's ethnic group is should use a term that people who belong to the ethnic group would recognize and feel comfortable using to identify themselves, even if outsiders don't understand who the term refers to.

In other words, the argument that the word "Gypsy" should be used on the form so that uninformed gadje will understand it is a stupid argument. The people who would have reason to check the box will understand the word "Roma", and there's no need to dumb down a form for the convenience of people who wouldn't have reason to check the box anyway.

So I agree, people need to be educated and urged to use correct terminology, even if it's not (yet) widely recognized by the masses. The only way the masses will learn to understand and use the culturally respectful term is to see it used.

Sorry for any misunderstanding!

Originally Posted by Kashmir

saw it done very well once but the result was a clown doing belly dance.

Semantics. Same difference

Originally Posted by Sara

I'm afraid it is. :-( At least in the Uk Gypsy is a very loaded term.

While I now understand that it is a derogatory term to some people, it is not a derogatory term to all people, some people embrace it and not necessarily just those who are uneducated in the subject. Like the Gypsies I mentioned in my personal story, I did not personally label them Gypsies, they called themselves Gypsies. They were not just a group of young kids trying to be cool, they were of all ages, even some elderly.

Originally Posted by Aziyade

Just because you aren't aware of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are tons of racial slurs I have never personally heard anyone say. That does not mean that they aren't racial slurs.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm simply saying that it is not universally embraced as a slur. The N word is universally embraced as a slur and in our culture always has been. Negro was a term used that many people thought was okay and now don't, not the N word.

Originally Posted by Aziyade

What we're trying to explain in this thread and the history one, is that a great deal of Americans ARE ignorant of the connotations of some of these words we toss around so carelessly.

I understand wanting to educate people, but calling people borderline racist because they use a word that some people find offensive is unfair.

Originally Posted by Aziyade

You ARE a racist if, after being educated about the topic, you refuse to acknowledge that it is a derogatory term, and/or continue to portray "Gypsies" as something out of a Stevie Nicks album.

Not true whatsoever. The only people who are racist while using the term, are people who purposely use it as a slur. That's it. If someone is aware that some people in the world feel the G word is derogatory, but they don't personally feel it's derogatory or use it in that manner, nor is it accepted universally as something as derogatory, that does not make them a racist.

Originally Posted by Aziyade

Um, I don't know if you realize this, but dance (and the arts in general) have been politicized for centuries.

Fully aware. Too many politics can ruin the purpose of many things.

And in reference to Africans calling line dance a Cowboy dance- I'm saying it may be fantasy TO THEM because it is vastly different from what they know in their culture- the clothing, music and style of dance. There is nothing wrong with them feeling like it's fantasy or using it as such.