But It's Art!!!!!

[Kharmine]

Y'know, I hope I can point out -- without anyone taking it personally -- that this thread is supposed to be about how we talk about art.

I don't know how it got into a belief on the part of some people that it was about putting down innovation or change -- the "evolution" of art -- and particularly how THEY like to express themselves and, therefore, somehow felt 'repressed" by the discussion.

We WERE talking about how if we ask someone about their artistic concept that we really ought to get a response that isn't just meant to blow us off.

Then we got into how hard it is not to make people mad just for pointing out a mistake. How we need to use tact and courtesy in replying to a question or making a correction that should be pointed out, when it is about verifiable facts.

And how hard it can be not to offend someone by our comments, opinions, even criticism -- no matter how carefully we try to word 'em.

It's a discussion that has traveled around a bit, but now feels like it's getting sidetracked into a completely different, perennial (and personal) argument.

Let's please not. Let's go back to discussing how we can talk about art, how we can ask for explanations without putting the artist's back up, make a correction gracefully, state an opinion without being spiteful or over-zealous, respond to opinions we don't agree with, answer questions with facts that may not please everyone, etc.

 

[sstacy123]

I'll not take it personally but I find it funny that it bothers people when topics veer off. That is the natural way of conversation.

 

[Kharmine]

I'll not take it personally but I find it funny that it bothers people when topics veer off. That is the natural way of conversation.

I absolutely agree with you. But only if it can stay civil and not be used to attack people just for having a different opinion. And not if it's to provoke arguments that aren't related to the topic and have been gone over and over and over elsewhere.

Then we just wind up like that character in one of Charles Dickens' novels -- everything discussed with him sooner or later came back to his personal obsession of what happened to King Charles II's head.

 

[Shanazel]

Following the discussion in a particular thread is not the same as face to face conversation.We do tend to wander off topic at times, but there's usually someone aware enough to pull the thread back to the topic at hand. Maybe we need a thread where people who so wish could all just go for stream of conciousness and let the topics change as they will. Maybe I will start one.

Yes, Simbal, we are serious, and assume you are too unless you plaster your posts with smiley and laughing faces. Sometimes we disagree with each other vehemently, but we mostly manage to remain friends and interested in each other despite the conflicts. I have seen very few instances where people on this forum were out to stick it to someone else, and those people don't last long.

You say you are an amateur; here's your chance to learn from a lot of people who aren't. What you do in the privacy of your own studio is up to you, but when you come into the belly dance world and repesent whatever it is you do for your own self as belly dance, you are going to get feedback you like and feedback you don't. I can hit a ball with a bat, and I can pitch across home plate, but I don't expect the Houston Astros to be impressed if while playing with my kids I give my son extra points if he stamps on each base twice. It may still be a sport, but it ain't baseball.

(Oh, lord, I hear you all moan , another analogy. Well, at least this one is not about food so perhaps we'll all avoid munchies.)

 

[Gabi]

I'll not take it personally but I find it funny that it bothers people when topics veer off. That is the natural way of conversation.

LOL, in my experience people generally object to being "off topic" when it's not going the way they'd like.

Looks like this one is going the way of same old same old.

I think "but it's art" is a valid remark and it is a subjective one. Some people are happy to leave it at that and pick and choose what they like, some aren't happy at all.

Bottom line - people are going to do what they want when it comes to artistic endeavors and if they have an audience they will be encouraged to continue, if not they won't. Some people will continue to make art, some won't. They will all call it whatever they want to call it unless someone else is in charge who disagrees.

For me, I've decided to call it belly dance if it's belly dance movement. I am not going to be the torch bearer for authenticity or cultural aspects in this way. I am a dancer first, then a belly dancer, or a fusion dancer, or whatever develops.

That's my line in the sand for now - movement.

 

[Simbul]

Are you Serious?

Ah, well, they're the words you chose to use. I did not take 'em out of context or misquote you. I pointed them out because for someone who claimed she didn't want to "start a fight," gratuitous words like these give rather the opposite impression.

"For you to come at me..." -- I wasn't aware any of us were. But I have far more legitimate reason to presume that you were including me in that "you" than you have for thinking that you were being ganged up on on this thread.

"...arrogant opinion." We are ALL encouraged to express our opinions on this forum without getting too mean or personal, and I think we tried to do that. This thread also discussed how to voice opinions, questions and corrections in a way that would be helpful and not offensive -- perhaps you missed that.

"...don't recall anyone who does improvise making a comment on this thread."
I don't recall that improvisation was ever at issue. Belly dancing is largely about improvisation. Probably EVERYONE who has commented on this thread has improvised his/her dance at some point.

...all so against evolving???" Again, your choice of words, and your assumption based on no evidence. No one here has made an argument to somehow freeze the most authentic Middle Eastern belly dance traditions we can find and not allow any innovations or changes whatsoever if we're going to call it "belly dance."

But there is a point when you have to ask is, "Is this belly dance or another dance style with belly dance moves included?" The point was, if I remember, How do you even raise the question without pissing off people who want to call it belly dance, regardless?

Which is why I suggested that you (and anyone who else who feels as you do) re-read the posts and consider the character of the post-ers (as much as you can tell), before gittin' all riled up and attacking people for having opinions you don't like or just don't understand.



No, I don't think so.

"Respect" is a hollow word when you're still choosing to assume the worst and take offense at someone's reasonably expressed opinion.

You don't agree with the opinions expressed? Then express your own -- but with reason, with maturity, with courtesy -- not the resentment of "It's only YOUR opinion," (yes, that's "just" my interpretation of your response) as if anything different from yours counts for nothing.

You took the words I used out of complete sentences which resulted in not expressing the points I was trying to make. Again cute. :lol:

I am not attacking people. If they feel that way, I will readily apologize. I am not offended. After 18 years in the military and dealing with other members from all the states, I have learned through trial and error not to have such a thin skin.

You are 100% correct that a forum is for people to communicate. I am a member of over 8 discussion groups. I am not saying for people to hold back. As the posters submitted their replies, so do I.

The problem with some posts in forums is that it doesn't always convey the posters tone or attitude. That is why I use a lot of smileys and try to be very careful with my words.

Oh, last. I am not a "she"

 

[Simbul]

Sigh

Following the discussion in a particular thread is not the same as face to face conversation.We do tend to wander off topic at times, but there's usually someone aware enough to pull the thread back to the topic at hand. Maybe we need a thread where people who so wish could all just go for stream of conciousness and let the topics change as they will. Maybe I will start one.

Yes, Simbal, we are serious, and assume you are too unless you plaster your posts with smiley and laughing faces. Sometimes we disagree with each other vehemently, but we mostly manage to remain friends and interested in each other despite the conflicts. I have seen very few instances where people on this forum were out to stick it to someone else, and those people don't last long.

You say you are an amateur; here's your chance to learn from a lot of people who aren't. What you do in the privacy of your own studio is up to you, but when you come into the belly dance world and repesent whatever it is you do for your own self as belly dance, you are going to get feedback you like and feedback you don't. I can hit a ball with a bat, and I can pitch across home plate, but I don't expect the Houston Astros to be impressed if while playing with my kids I give my son extra points if he stamps on each base twice. It may still be a sport, but it ain't baseball.

(Oh, lord, I hear you all moan , another analogy. Well, at least this one is not about food so perhaps we'll all avoid munchies.)

I am not arguing with you or anyone, but discussing things. Also I am not a forum flamer, I just love discussing things and that is why I belong to so many social forums.

In the long years I have been in forums, no thread has ever stuck to the original post. They all changed during the discussion because other elements had a relationship to what was being discussed.

Yes I am an amateur to belly dancing, but not to dancing. I would love to learn from the professional dancers in the group, but were we not talking about how belly dancing is interpreted and what the term "art" can be attached to? :think: If so, I have an opinion and have expressed it.

Why do I plaster my posts with smileys? Check my previous post.

I would like to be any of your friends, but please don't take it too seriously when I post my opinion. I am entitled to it, right?

 

[Aisha Azar]

Art

Dear Group,
There are a couple pf points that I think need clarification. Many people think that those of us who believe that belly dance means something very specifically ethnic are against innovations in the dance.
The idea that one can only innovate by losing the ethnic essence of the dance is just way off base. I find that the native dancers from countries of origin DO innovate, and they do so without losing the basic spirit and feeling of the dance itself. Belly dance in its countries of origin is an evolving art, but because of the cultural connections, the dance retains its spirit and feeling. It is a dynamic art that moves in its own cultures and with them, taking up influences and putting their own unique ethnic spin on them..
RE the idea that authentic belly dancers do not improvise: MOST authentic dancers improvise. Even when they choreograph for a solo dance, that choreography is much different than the western idea of choreography. There is no such thing as a movement arrangement being locked in stone for them. The reason is because the music and the physical dancer and the emotional feeling of the moment that is the result of the combination of the two, is not going to be the same two times in a row. The physical body is another musical instrument that expresses the abstract cultural/emotional content of the music and manifests it visually, along with the feeling that the music gives the dancer. This can only be done when there is room for improvisation.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Simbul]

Last, I PROMISE!!!

Honest, this is my last amateur opinion!!!

Lets say there was a belly dance competition and the requirement was to demonstrate proficiency in belly dance in its traditional form. I would dance it just like that.

Now if the competition called for the dancer to show talent, innovation, etc... I would go all out.

When I "TRY" to belly dance, I feel good. For some reason I feel a type of joy. I cannot explain it properly, but it is like letting go. The music, the grace, etc... all of it loosens something in me. If I were out and dancing and someone approached me to ask what I was doing, I may say "belly dancing". Their reply could be that it isn't true belly dancing. Knowing how nonchalant I am, I would most likely say "not for you" and continue enjoying myself. Now if the person persisted, I would quickly come to think they are very rude and do as I always do. Scream over the sound system "LEAVE ME ALONE!!!!, I JUST MISSED THE HOOK"...:lol:

 

[Aisha Azar]

Art

Dear Simbul,
Again, the message that I get from you here is that it is all about YOU. In belly dance, that is never the case. It is in part about the dancer her/himself, but a LOT about other things; the nuances in the music, the cultural expression, the quality of the human condition seen through the combined eyes of the musicains and the dancer, etc.
There is not much else I can say if you truly do not want to be convinced of the amazingness of this dance as something outside yourself. Art stands alone, you know, and is a thing in itself with or without us as the egocentric point around which we might think it evolves.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Shanazel]

I would like to be any of your friends, but please don't take it too seriously when I post my opinion. I am entitled to it, right?

You bet, babe. Post away.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Sigh.

As the original poster, I'm dismayed that my point appears to be lost.

Once again,
"When you "push the boundaries of your art" you should expect people to question you. And you should be prepared with a response. Art is about communication. What are you communicating?"

Art with a capital A, that is.

NO ONE is saying that Art doesn't evolve. Okay? No one is saying that the performing art known by some as "Bellydance" shouldn't evolve.

But we are not talking about social dance, or people dancing around in their living rooms or parties. We're talking about the PROFESSIONAL PERFORMANCE ART known as Bellydance or Raqs Sharqi or Oriental Dance or Middle Eastern Dance (various forum members have preferred names.)


Frankly, and I'm not meaning to step on anyone's toes, but the category of people who complain and whine the loudest about people misunderstanding their "art" are the newbies -- the novice performers, the students with a few years of classes (or less), and the student drop-outs who flit from one dance form to the next, attempting to fuse it all together.

The dancers who have BEEN AROUND, so to speak, realize that actually going to the trouble of creating ART or creating good fusion is difficult and takes a lot of time, energy, and effort -- AND you have to know your subject matter inside and out, which entails more than just one class a week for a few years.

Nobody wants to stifle anybody's creativity. But if you do something completely against the "tradition," you need to be prepared for people to call you on it, and not complain later that you're misunderstood.

Newbies:
If you've only been taking classes for six weeks or six months, you don't have to worry about creating "art" because you won't be. You should just ENJOY the dance and enjoy learning more about it. Dance and be free. Explore. Have fun. Play. Learn about cultural appropriateness, learn about the folk dances that underlie Middle Eastern Dance, explore the great singers of the past as well as those of the present,read about the history of African music. You have a whole world in front of you. Open up and dive in.

When you're ready to take your studies to a higher level and become a performer, then you can start looking at and studying the "greats" -- those pioneers our community considers Artists. And from there, possibly, you can go on to create Art of your own.

Or just enjoying being a performer and don't worry about communicating anything other than the music. Nothing says to have to try to create Art with every performance. Sometimes it's just play. Sometimes it's just practice.

 

[sstacy123]

Sigh.

As the original poster, I'm dismayed that my point appears to be lost.

Newbies:
If you've only been taking classes for six weeks or six months, you don't have to worry about creating "art" because you won't be. You should just ENJOY the dance and enjoy learning more about it. Dance and be free. Explore. Have fun. Play. Learn about cultural appropriateness, learn about the folk dances that underlie Middle Eastern Dance, explore the great singers of the past as well as those of the present,read about the history of African music. You have a whole world in front of you. Open up and dive in.

That is absolutely what I want to do! I just feel like I'm walking into a cloud of negativity though.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I remember when I read the book Snake Hips not understanding what Anne Soffee meant by the term "ethnic police," now I do. While I do appreciate and respect the people trying to preserve a culture and an art form something about the way it is being done is turning me off just a bit.

Stacy I've been in your position. It sucks.

When I was a rank baby dancer, I had two people from both extremes whispering in each ear. I was TOTALLY confused about just what was meant by "authentic" and it almost made me crazy.

I was terrified to pick up a cane in case I had the wrong music. !! Could I do veil? Could I dance to pop music? What about cymbals?! And is George Abdo authentic music?!! What if I'm dancing to him and an Arab woman got offended ???!!!! AAAAAKKKKKKKKK!

I just feel like I have to watch what I say, I feel bound in my dance, I feel like anything I do bellydance wise will be scrutinized (not by the general public but by the bd community).

Yep, been there. And anything you say probably will be scrutinized, and in some cases even made fun of, but you're going to learn A LOT from commenting and asking questions.

I made a lot of postings to the MEDdance list -- that was I think the only real outlet we had to ask questions of Those In The Know -- and was alternatively coddled and slapped around by Them. I have a thick skin; I got through it. (Plus now I can officially claim I lived through a public scathing by Morocco.) Finally one poster just basically told me, "Authenticity needs to be self-defined. You'll figure it out eventually."

I made friends with Arabs and took every opportunity to pick their brains. I performed a cane dance once, at a university student showcase, and one of my Egyptian friends asked me why I chose that music (George Abdo) I explained that it sounds Arab enough, and the rhythm is Saiidi. What more was there?

He smiled and laughed and said, "Well, his accent is Lebanese. And you say you want to dance Egyptian? Why not pick an Egyptian song?" He wasn't offended -- but thought it was curious. Was I embarrassed? Sure, but not for long. I learned from that experience (and later developed a fascination for Metkal Mknawi).

While I believe everyone has the right to their personal preference I feel put down because I'm learning American cabaret.

My real love is Turkish Oriental. So we can be put down together

Seriously, everyone new to this dance/music starts out ignorant. We're blank slates. There's nothing wrong with that, and there's nothing wrong with asking questions or commenting (no matter if later you decide those comments were bone-headed.) How else are you going to learn???

It's DELIBERATE ignorance that really bugs me. Of this kind:

"Well, I want to be a professional performer and I want to get a restaurant job and be an ARTIST, but I don't want to learn anything about the cultural significance of the dance, and I took a flamenco class for two weeks, so I think I'll create a new fusion of flamenco and bellydance and then I think I'll start teaching and giving workshops and who the hell cares what Aziyade and A'isha think, cause I'm an ARTIST!"

And I see this all .... the .... time. Sigh.

Some of the most famous Am Cab dancers (Anaheed Sofian, Jenaeni Rathor, Alexandra King) are women who have done A LOT of research on the cultures and music that make up Bellydance. They're in the know, but prefer to stick with the American Cabaret form of the dance. Others like Fahtiem and Dahlena have moved away from their Am Cab roots and gone more Egyptian.

For me, I place Am Cab squarely in the "Bellydance" definition, and I'd put Amaya and Dalia Carella there too. I reserve the term "Oriental Dance" and "Middle Eastern Dance" for the styles that have a distinct ethnicity, devoid of too many modern western fusion elements. That's how I self-defined authenticity.

Perhaps I will change my opinon as my dance "career" continues but for now I feel repressed and judged.

You will most likely change your mind dozens of times, the more you learn and grow. I had zero interest in Egyptian style until I studied with Shareen el Safy. Also zero interest in the modern jazzy styles until I studied with Suhaila. Most of what I end up PERFORMING is what's loosely called Westernized Egyptian, because that seems to go over pretty big with the GP here.


BESIDES, if nobody commented on any posts, longwinded people like me (who like to TALK about dance almost as much as we like to DO it) would have nothing to do all day.

 

[sstacy123]

And anything you say probably will be scrutinized, and in some cases even made fun of, but you're going to learn A LOT from commenting and asking questions.

I made a lot of postings to the MEDdance list -- that was I think the only real outlet we had to ask questions of Those In The Know -- and was alternatively coddled and slapped around by Them. I have a thick skin; I got through it.

Well I guess that is part of my difficulty...I do NOT have a thick skin.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Art

Dear Stacey,
I am not sure why you think anyone has a negative attitude toward Amercian Cabaret dance ( or American Oriental, as Salome calls it: a name I find entirely wonderful). This dance is an art in itself. I just don't happen to believe it has an inherent ethnic quality necessary to refer to it as belly dance. I have great respect for dancers like Salome, Ne Kajira Janan, Suhaila Salimpour Khoury, Cassandra Shore, and others who really bring American Oriental to its peak in performance art. The style is beautiful, innovative and often the dancers in this form create some of the best fusion around.
While I disagree with Aziyade that it is belly dance, I agree with every other thing she said in her last post, which was right on the money in my own experience.
I guess you might label me as one of the main "ethnic police" out there. Well, it's a nasty and thankless job a lot of the time, but how much would we still know about the realities of the ethnic styles if not for people like myself. I just thank my lucky stars every day that I started with Arabs and have gained an understanding of the dance from their point of view. Authentic dance would be so buried under a mound of dance, both good and bad, that we might never again find it if not for people willing to speak out.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Kharmine]

You "A" girls rock!

IMHO, if you're going to bring change to an art form that has a particular style and long traditions, it's perfectly reasonable to expect that you've thought your concept out even a little bit and aren't rude or condescending when asked about it.

Let's say a young new musician walks into a diverse gathering of jazz professionals and starts playing in a very different and experimental kind of way. The more experienced and older jazz professionals would be perfectly justified in asking, "What's that you're doing?"

If the newcomer says "It's bebop!" (or progressive or funk or some other style) -- the ones who are very familiar with that style might well say, "Uh, no, it isn't." They're not being rude (unless they take an unnecessarily mean tone) -- they really do have knowledge and experience and what the newcomer is doing just doesn't fit in with what he's claiming.

But if the newcomer responds with "It's music," or "It's doin' my own thing with some jazz thrown in," well, nobody can really argue with that. In fact, he could then get into a very enjoyable discussion about his innovation with the more experienced dudes who don't feel he's claiming something specific they know to be wrong.

Along those lines, we should be able to have a civil but lively and interesting conversation about what is specifically belly dancing (in all its styles) and what might be called a different kind of dance with belly dance-type moves.

But some people seem absolutely threatened by the mere question, "What is that?" They blow off the questioner -- or worse -- and then they're outraged when their claim is challenged, even if respectfully, by someone more knowledgeable and experienced.

Maybe they need to be evolving, too. I dunno.

So how DO we talk about this and related topics without descending into accusations, charges, and unrelated diversions? I'd really like to hear some sensible suggestions from those people who claim that just hearing others' opinions about HOW to talk about their art makes' 'em feel personally attacked or repressed.

 

[sstacy123]

I do wish I could remember the posts that have given me this impression...it may not have even been here, it may have been the MED list...giving the impression AmCab was lacking. For now it is my personal opinion that bellydance is a generic term, anything more specific is just what it is. But I know that topic has been debated! Yes, I would say you are a member of the "ethnic police" but I don't want you to get me wrong. I'm glad there are people that do care enough to preserve an art and a culture. You are obviously very passionate about it (by the way I would love to see you dance, anyone with that much passion must be a wonder) bit I just can't help but feel a negativity surrounding it. I'm sure this probably not the intent but it exists just the same.

 

[Shahrahzad]

Dancing for yourself

As a dancer who has done many styles (ballet, modern, tap, jazz, musical theatre, blah, blah, blah) the most important point to dancing a form is that you know the rules of that form. Once you have a grip on that, you are able to make informed choices about exactly what it is you are doing.

Rules are not restrictions or limiters of imagination, but a structural framework for understanding, a map to begin a journey.

Once you know the rules, you are free to explore the whole territory without wandering in circles or getting lost. Plus if you create a whole NEW form you will be able to articulate what it is!

 

[sstacy123]

Hey, S girls rock too ! Kharmine it is a challenge and I certainly don't have all the answers, after all I am the newbie. I'm just pointing out something I see as a problem. (How are you going to preserve the dance if everyone is scared away?) While it is okay to ask questions I hope nobody would literally ask "what is that?" And as far as other ways of not being so negative I can't answer that question generally, perhaps in a specific situation...But I think often the way to go is putting the information out there and making people aware and the people that are interested will seek it out and if there is a question about it then it is up to them to ask someone who is knowledgable. The rest don't care anyway so comments are falling on deaf ears.
Respectfully,
STACY