Fighting for Muslim women's Rights--BBC story

[cathy]

BBC NEWS | Special Reports | Fighting for Muslim women's rights

Six Muslim feminists writing about the issues women face in the Muslim world, from the third International Congress on Islamic Feminism, taking place in Barcelona.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Very interesting article.

I am beginning to hear this more and more about culture being confused with religion.

You only have to look at how different countries percieve Isalma to see how much culture comes into play.

Christian women I know in Egypt have exactly the same restrictions placed on them as Muslim women because it is a 'culture'. The same everywhere I guess.

My husband often refers to friends of his as being a 'bit' or 'very' Oriental in their attitude, meaning 'sexist' on a cultural level basically.

I see young men in my own city display similar behaviours and attitudes towards young women.

Where and how did this concept of keeping women down come from? did it start with the Bible and go on from there? or does it pre-date modern religions? the mind boggles.

 

[Amulya]

Where and how did this concept of keeping women down come from? did it start with the Bible and go on from there? or does it pre-date modern religions? the mind boggles.

It must have come from the times when the Bible was formed, if you read the Bible you can find countless things that are women unfriendly (like women could be given away to be married off etc.)
But then again, that was not the only time and place where things like this happened.
I read once that it might have had to do with the fact that women can bear children and that society depends on them for that and in order to control that, men tried to control women. Not sure if that's the real reason.

 

[Mosaic]

[snip]

Where and how did this concept of keeping women down come from? did it start with the Bible and go on from there? or does it pre-date modern religions? the mind boggles.

From my various readings through the years ( don't have the names of books/authors sorry) prior to Christianity and other organised religions, women appeared to be very independent, owning land/livestock, chose their own partners and in some cases just as easily cast them off I believe with the advent of more formal religions somehow men took charge ( although it had been happening with the beginnings of warrrior tribal people riding into the matriarchial societies and laying waste to the land and taking over the more peaceful societies - where and how these first patriarchial types began to emerge, I haven't quite worked out). Once the more formal and controlling religions came to the fore, the full on oppression of women began, the change to so called western societies began with WW1 and became even more of a movement with WWII, with change continuing at a more sedate fashion through to the 60s and then the youth of 60s "saw the light" and change became a powerful force. ( that is my take on it) Why other parts of the world have in many ways become more oppressive towards women I just don't understand. My understanding of the Koran is that men and women are equal. But somewhere along the line the male leaders and Imams seem to have interpreted the Koran to suit their ideology ( mind you the leaders of the Christian Church had their field day for a very long time as well, and tried to wrest the power back form the people for a long time ... but it didn't work!).

When I listen to and question a several friends of many years about Islam and the Koran, I believe it really is a peaceful religion, and in some areas (the fundamentalists which can be found in most religions) the words have been interpreted totally incorrectly in many of my Muslim friends opinions. It seems women don't truly have a voice in many Islamic countries, or if they do those voices are often discounted. But having said that I do believe those womens voices and the moderates are getting stronger and hopefully change will come in the not too distant future.

Hmmm I have probably let my thoughts wander a bit there.

But I do think if this world is to survive we have to believe that 'goodness' and tolerance will out! Unfortunately, maybe not in my lifetime.
~Mosaic

 

[Aisha Azar]

Females, etc.

Dear Mosaic,

From my various readings through the years ( don't have the names of books/authors sorry) prior to Christianity and other organised religions, women appeared to be very independent, owning land/livestock, chose their own partners and in some cases just as easily cast them off

In studies in anthropology, both paleo and modern, I have not read of any ancient or more modern cultures where women were equal with men, and so if you COULD come up with some resources, that would be wonderful. I would be very interested!!

I believe with the advent of more formal religions somehow men took charge ( although it had been happening with the beginnings of warrrior tribal people riding into the matriarchial societies and laying waste to the land and taking over the more peaceful societies -

Frankly, I have also not heard of any peaceful societies before or since history. There have been signs of war and aggression going right back to the first hominids. However, it does seem that there was less big scale war before the invention of city-states. In other words the small tribe seems to have been a somewhat more peaceful arrangement than the larger human group. BTW, Jane Goodall, in her studies of chimpanzees, our closest primate relatives, found that groups wage war on each other.

where and how these first patriarchial types began to emerge, I haven't quite worked out).

My feeling is that since males are in general stronger physically than females, even when they are the same size, among many primates, they were able to get their own food better, fight for their own rights better, etc, in situations where most of the time, to survive, fighting was necessary on one level or another. What they could not do was get women to have sex with them, if the girls would hide or run away. If males were too scary and mean and only thinking about survival, then they got no nooky. So, eventually the sexes learned to share what resources they had,physical and emotional and mental,but in the end, men were still stronger, did not get pregnant, and could still hunt in times when women could not because they attracted big predators when they were having their periods, etc. So, men controlled most of the resources AND were predominantly responsible for protecting those resources against others who might try to take them away. (This of course does not mean women never fought, but that they played a more back seat role in being predatory, migrating hunters, and like brother Cain, tended gardens, etc, which the Old Testament made sure we all understood was not as cool as killing and sacrificing live animals.)

Once the more formal and controlling religions came to the fore, the full on oppression of women began,

I disagree with this. It appears that this has always been a condition of the human situation and there has never been any real equity between the sexes.
Oppression of women has been a constant since we were out in the Savannahs of South Africa, nearly as I can tell. It extends backwards in time clear back to many of the other primates. Our consciousness of it is what we might explore, I think. When did we become conscious of this inequity? Clearly Hatshepsut got it..... and clearly those who took power after her death wanted to erase any memory of a female who acted like a male and wanted to dominate.

the change to so called western societies began with WW1 and became even more of a movement with WWII, with change continuing at a more sedate fashion through to the 60s and then the youth of 60s "saw the light" and change became a powerful force. ( that is my take on it) Why other parts of the world have in many ways become more oppressive towards women I just don't understand.

This makes me wonder just WHERE this equality is in the West. The Glass Ceiling alone is enough to prove that there is no equality here as of yet. There are so many examples of sexual inequity in most western systems; as many as in Islamic ones. We just have been trained not to notice in our own systems, I think. Many women in Islamic countries think its terrible that western systems are set up so that most western women can not even stay home to raise their own children, and I agree.

My understanding of the Koran is that men and women are equal. But somewhere along the line the male leaders and Imams seem to have interpreted the Koran to suit their ideology ( mind you the leaders of the Christian Church had their field day for a very long time as well, and tried to wrest the power back form the people for a long time ... but it didn't work!).

Actually, the Qur'an and the Bible seem in the end to have pretty much the same things to say about women and equality, with several more equitable things for women in the Qur'an. For example, women have the right to own their own property and buy and sell it and it is considered an obligation to God that both men and women use their minds and get educated. Men have to take care of women just as in the Bible, and both give men permission to beat their wives. All cultures that I can think of distort their written texts given to them by God in their belief systems, to give men advantages and control over women and over other men in the form of slavery or a clear cut caste system.

When I listen to and question a several friends of many years about Islam and the Koran, I believe it really is a peaceful religion, and in some areas (the fundamentalists which can be found in most religions) the words have been interpreted totally incorrectly in many of my Muslim friends opinions. It seems women don't truly have a voice in many Islamic countries, or if they do those voices are often discounted. But having said that I do believe those womens voices and the moderates are getting stronger and hopefully change will come in the not too distant future.

As a recovering Catholic, I can tell you rightly enough that women do not have a voice in that Christian religion, nor in many other sects of Christianity. Under that religion, a woman may not even choose the time that is right for her to have children, whether or not she can afford to take care of them. Islam extends the right of birth control to women.

But I do think if this world is to survive we have to believe that 'goodness' and tolerance will out! Unfortunately, maybe not in my lifetime.
~Mosaic

Goodness and tolerance are out there in small and important ways every day. Every time someone can hurt someone in some way and chooses not to, a deed of great importance has been done.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Sita]

A'isha I think you've made some fantastic points (and I love the phrase 'recovering Catholic - much better than just lapsed ).

I'm not an anthropolagist(sp) so my knowledge here is sparse and based in gender/Culture/critical sudies. Although I too have not nessarily seen or witnessed ancient cultures that gave true equality to women in their societies (although anyone feel free to enlighten me on this)The place of women in society always appears to be connected with her abiltiy to produce offspring for example; this concept of 'Mother Earth' that I've heard people argue for is based firmly on the idea of women as a 'Mother';nuturing, fertile etc. It hardly shows women or presents that image as equal to men. The Ancient Greek's are terrible; the only strong women like the goddess Athena or Artemis are virgins and have had to deny their own sexuality to achieve this status of learned logical strong women. Unlike the male Greek gods. Continually in Greek Myths as soon as the women becomes or is in a sexually active position she becomes either a femme fatale see Aphrodite or a jealous scheming harlot see Medea and Hera.

For me I think the idea of women as a 'vessal' that hold's the future child prehaps heir influences this 'sexist' behaviour and ownership. If women are to hold and carry your heir you want them to remain pure and unstained...(and a garantee that it's yours ) and in every culture I've come accross even where women have taken part in wars and fighting like the celts; their main role in the society is based on that of the 'Mother'/nurturer and of the domestic as shown in the roles of the cultures gods/goddesses. Indeed there is a power in this role but it is a restrictive role that doesn't seem to allow room for women to be anything else. Although in fairness the same could be argued for the inflexibilty of men in the 'protector/provider/warrior' role.

I have never yet come accross a culture (even today) that is truly comfortable with the idea of an infertile women or one who has no interest in having a family or children. Women still seemed to be naturally conected to children and family far more so than men. Yet two of my sisters have no interest in children or marriage just career's and while we in the family are okay with this most people find this hard to understand or even accept. Would it be the same if they were men ? I don't know...
But as I said my angle is more cultural literally based not in anthropology so these are just my own feelings o the matter. I do however see this as existing prior to Biblical culture but more a universal cultural tradition/system based solely on the biological/physical differences between men and women which led to standard roles being enforced even to this day....
Sita

 

[Sita]

Very interesting article.

I am beginning to hear this more and more about culture being confused with religion.

I think it's easier for people and the media to label it a religious factor than truly going into depth also I think it allows them to forget that not even a century ago our society held pretty much the same traditions to the ones we now view as 'oppressive or uncivilised' such as arranged marriages or female rights to vote. In fact the big turning point for women's rights was WWI and WWII. For England it wasn't until the 1870's that abuse was grounds for divorce (before that a man had the right to come after a abused wife and 'kidnap' her back home)

I recently saw a news story that Britain has changed the laws regrding domestic abuse and homicide and one aspect was that it refused to allow men to basically claim nagging as an legitimate excuse for spousal abuse or murder :shok:- people forget the West still has far to go to reach equality but I think it uses Islam and other cultures as an excuse to boost itself. I mean in the UK there's no right to freedom of speech unless you are in speakers corner nor do we have a written constitution....

Sita

 

[AngelaJP]

From my various readings through the years ( don't have the names of books/authors sorry) prior to Christianity and other organised religions, women appeared to be very independent, owning land/livestock, chose their own partners and in some cases just as easily cast them off

There were powerful women in history alright, a few ruthless too - Cleopatra, Hatsheput, Russian, English, Spanish queens, other empresses in Asia.

I forgot which peoples were that where their women were also trained to fight and defend their homes when the men were away fighting. They also did men's jobs when their men were away. Women were treated as a treasure. Grrrr! Can't recall now. I'm too young to have Alzheimer's

I don't know if I am correct in thinking this but I also reckon that some powerful people's interpretation of religion or proper culture contributed to women holding a lesser importance in society than men. There are priestesses in other religions but in my Catholic religion, only men are allowed to hold masses or to marry and baptize people.

Mosaic: My understanding of the Koran is that men and women are equal. But somewhere along the line the male leaders and Imams seem to have interpreted the Koran to suit their ideology ( mind you the leaders of the Christian Church had their field day for a very long time as well, and tried to wrest the power back form the people for a long time ... but it didn't work!).

Aisha: Actually, the Qur'an and the Bible seem in the end to have pretty much the same things to say about women and equality, with several more equitable things for women in the Qur'an. For example, women have the right to own their own property and buy and sell it and it is considered an obligation to God that both men and women use their minds and get educated. Men have to take care of women just as in the Bible, and both give men permission to beat their wives. All cultures that I can think of distort their written texts given to them by God in their belief systems, to give men advantages and control over women and over other men in the form of slavery or a clear cut caste system.

I agree. From what I have read and heard, the Koran and Bible have more or less the same teachings. In the Koran, women are respected. In my country, the Muslims can have many wives, ugh! In Turkey though, correct me if I'm wrong, it is now illegal to have more than one wife. Men used to have concubines in China and other countries, at least as many as they can afford. In the modern world, there are more discreet ways - extramarital affairs, etc. which in some countries, can get the man into a lot of trouble if proven. In the Philippines, my ex-hubby could have had lost his license to practice as a lawyer for life if I filed an adultery case and won. In Africa yesterday, a woman accused of adultery was stoned to death in front of so many people. I wonder if they do the same thing to adulterous men?

Male leaders, in my opinion, did distort religious and cultural teachings (really major influence in society) to give them more power over women.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I also remember a lecturer from Uni providing us with a theory in respect to the root of female domination.
She declared 'it was when men discovered they had a role to play in human reproduction. they realised that whilst the women carried, it was they who put it there and thereafter came the obsession'.

She did not date it to a time in history, but I always thought it was a reasonable explanation.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Females, etc.

I also remember a lecturer from Uni providing us with a theory in respect to the root of female domination.
She declared 'it was when men discovered they had a role to play in human reproduction. they realised that whilst the women carried, it was they who put it there and thereafter came the obsession'.

She did not date it to a time in history, but I always thought it was a reasonable explanation.

Dear Caroline,
The reason that I would disagree with this is that nonhuman primates and other mammals also show the same kind of ownership attitudes toward females of their species, without supposed consciousness of having been a part of the reproductive system. Also, there are many, many males who do not care about a line of descendants who also treat women as second class citizens. In fact, in many situations, it has been more important to women that they create a line of descendants for males in order to gain power through providing an heir to a throne or whatever. The men really could care less in some cases WHO they got pregnant, or in some cases even IF anyone blessed them with an heir unless there was something in it for them. Hence we have that stupid reply to the question of if such and such male has any kids and his reply is something ridiculous like, "None.... that I know of". We also have countless cases if men who have children and do nothing at all to help take care of them, paying no child support or in any other way contributing either spiritually, physically or psychologically to their up bringing.
Kind of very much like those other male mammals who procreate without consciousness. I feel that there are many men who are family oriented, but many who are not as well. (I am also well aware that there are women who abandon their children as well. So do female elephants during times of great duress.)
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Yshka]

I will get back on this later, I just got home and am soo tired, but I had to say this.
I think I remember a documentary from about a year back on National Geographic describing the influence of women in the matriarchal society of Cambodian Ankhor Wat, where women tended to have higher positions than men.

I'm not sure it happened anywhere else though, but I'm not sure it didn't either.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Angkor Wat

I will get back on this later, I just got home and am soo tired, but I had to say this.
I think I remember a documentary from about a year back on National Geographic describing the influence of women in the matriarchal society of Cambodian Ankhor Wat, where women tended to have higher positions than men.

I'm not sure it happened anywhere else though, but I'm not sure it didn't either.

Dear Yshka,
I can't remember a lot about this, but if I remember correctly, a Wat is the temple and Angkhor is one of the temples in the region and they were built by Khmer peoples, who were a patriarchal society who might have had some kind of goddess situation in which women were revered. Cambodians in general are not matriarchal, I don't think, unless it is something like the inheritance situation among some Berbers where inheritance comes from the mother;s side, but it does not mean that women have a lot of power in the general scheme of things. I could be off base as I just do not member very much about the Khmer, but in looking at some of my stuff, I read an abstract from the Journal of Anthropological Research ( volume 51, #3) that stated that the matriarchal theory among the Khmer is in reality a myth and has not been substantiated. It is not true now for sure. They do tend to pay women respect in small ways, and like Arab women, Khmer women often have say over what happens in the household.
Oh. The article is called "Women, Work and Kinship". I THINK the author is J. Ledgerwood, but my notes are sketchy.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[masrawy]

Gain their trust first ...

Dear friends,
I have refrained from posting in this thread as I have my doubt the intention of the thread author ... Lots of things have been said left and right.

Muslim women are respected in the Muslim societies much more than Westerner one as A'isha have explained. They are mothers, sisters and daughters. Here is a quote from Hadith that illustrate that.

Narrated 'Aisha:
(the wife of the Prophet) The Prophet said, 'The word 'Ar-Rahm' (womb) derives its name from
'Ar-Rahman' (i.e. Allah). So whosoever keeps good relations with it (womb i.e. Kith and
kin), Allah will keep good relations with him, and whosoever will sever it (i.e. severs his
bonds of Kith and kin) Allah too will sever His relations with him.

of course, you can find flawed in anything .. life is not perfect even in Muslim society.
I would recommend that you find for yourself. Just visit any Islamic Center around you. They won't bite you over there, find out when they meet. In many cases, it's on a Sunday for couple of hours sometimes man and women will have it together sometimes the women just meet by themselves. Get to know them ask questions but please, don't stick it in their face with material you find the Web. Gain their trust first is a key ...

 

[cathy]

I posted the link to this story because I am interested in the role of women in the Middle East. Not so surprising that a member of this forum would be, is it?

Given that I am not Muslim, I thought it made sense to let Muslim women speak for themselves on this issue. That's why I posted the link.

I didn't expect this conversation to turn to the ancient roots of patriarchy in particular. Some interesting comments about this have been posted but I am really personally more interested in more recent history when it comes to this issue. As some of my previous posts will attest. For instance, Hoda Shaarawi. I am also reading Khul-Khaal: Five Egyptian Women Tell Their Stories by Nariya Atiya now and who knows? May post about it soon.

I am certainly not planning to "rub material found on the web" in the faces of anyone. If you don't like it, don't read it! I pass over most of the threads on this site myself.

Cathy

 

[Amulya]

I also remember a lecturer from Uni providing us with a theory in respect to the root of female domination.
She declared 'it was when men discovered they had a role to play in human reproduction. they realised that whilst the women carried, it was they who put it there and thereafter came the obsession'.

She did not date it to a time in history, but I always thought it was a reasonable explanation.

Yes that's what I meant with:

I read once that it might have had to do with the fact that women can bear children and that society depends on them for that and in order to control that, men tried to control women. Not sure if that's the real reason.

Would be interesting to find some references.

 

[Amulya]

not even a century ago our society held pretty much the same traditions to the ones we now view as 'oppressive or uncivilised' such as arranged marriages

So true, my great grandmother had an arranged marriage with a guy she never met and she was put on a boat to be shipped to Indonesia to meet new husband. Her parents did this because she had fallen in love with someone from a lower class and this was their 'solution'. Although her husband was a Dutch man (she herself was Dutch too), my great grandmother gave birth to a half Indonesian daughter (my grandmother), so she got her revenge
My grandmother from my fathers site was married to a man who her family thought to be 'suitable', so although she was allowed to chose her husband, there wasn't much to chose from.


I have no idea what happened with this lettertype!

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Dear friends,
I have refrained from posting in this thread as I have my doubt the intention of the thread author ... Lots of things have been said left and right.

Muslim women are respected in the Muslim societies much more than Westerner one as A'isha have explained. They are mothers, sisters and daughters. Here is a quote from Hadith that illustrate that.

Narrated 'Aisha:
(the wife of the Prophet) The Prophet said, 'The word 'Ar-Rahm' (womb) derives its name from
'Ar-Rahman' (i.e. Allah). So whosoever keeps good relations with it (womb i.e. Kith and
kin), Allah will keep good relations with him, and whosoever will sever it (i.e. severs his
bonds of Kith and kin) Allah too will sever His relations with him.

of course, you can find flawed in anything .. life is not perfect even in Muslim society.
I would recommend that you find for yourself. Just visit any Islamic Center around you. They won't bite you over there, find out when they meet. In many cases, it's on a Sunday for couple of hours sometimes man and women will have it together sometimes the women just meet by themselves. Get to know them ask questions but please, don't stick it in their face with material you find the Web. Gain their trust first is a key ...

SabaH El Kheir Ya Mahmoud,

Firstly, I feel the desire to defend Cathy here.

I have always enjoyed Cathy's posts as she questions everything and adds food for thought beyond the superficial. I admire anyone who can stick their head above the pavement and do this. It is about a personal desire to learn and understand rather than attack.

What followed this interesting news report was a very general discussion about why and how sexism came about, and no place has been blamed in one area.

With regards to how Islam is practised, I am not sure that finding a religious centre and joining them is such a good idea? :think:

Something like this should come recommneded or introduced by a friend.

My husband was advised not to go to the Mosque when he moved to the UK as there are 'strange people around'. He was advised by other Egyptians whom had lived in the UK as they had not liked it.

He dismissed this entirely and went to find the Mosque. 3 weeks in he decided not to go anymore. He felt it was not the Islam he knew and understood from Egypt. My brother in law lives in London and is experiencing similar things. The cultural triggers were not present and the delivery was so different he was afraid it was not real somehow. He didnt like the tone and attidude of some of the guest speakers. He felt they were not qualified enough, and would not accept anyone who had not trained at Azhar.
He considers himself to be very knowlegable about his religion and wont allow anyone to preach to him.

Many people perhaps do not know the difference?

You cannot assume that all people think the same and come from the same postition. One church is different from another in every country too etc.

You know very well that most things are open to abuse and anyone can add their own spin onto anything.

I have studied the Arts and Islam with the Arts Council of Britian. It was all led by Muslims, I have also been to on various training courses led by the Islamic Institute to study youth work with young Muslim people.

The idealogy and cultural differences here in the Muslim UK are very different from that in Egypt. It is very influenced by the dominating culture here which is Pakistan, in Liverpool it is also Yemeni.

I was a trustee for the Liverpool Arabic Club for years.

We had representatives on various council groups for local government.

The representatives would report back often feeling annoyed that there were other Muslims present painting a very different picture from them.
This was very common.
In other words, you cannot visit and befriend one group and take everything they say as 'it'.

It is a valid experience and perspective, but not the only one.

Interpretations and culture do differ from country to country and this does appear to be about interpretation.

If I have had one valuable lesson in life then it is this....question everything.

 

[Mosaic]

Dear A'isha,
I went looking to see if I still had some of the books, but I don't, they are from many years ago, One book I think was called Mothers and Amazons ( just looked up the author - Bertha Diener). This book is generally regarded as a classic of feminist matriarchal study. Her view was, that in
the past all human societies were matriarchal, then, at some point, most shifted to patriarchal societies and degenerated.

I have tried to find others on the web, to no avail, other than Friedrich Engels, I do vaguely remember reading something of his.

There are a number of tribal peoples around that have matriarchal/matrilineal systems, the Mosuo of China ( here is a link to a bit of info on them I found on the web:
FRONTLINE/WORLD . Rough Cut . The Women's Kingdom . Background Facts and Related Links | PBS

The Minangkabau people of Somatra Indonesia is another group that was ( I believe0 matriachal and matrilineal, the matriachal side of things is not so strong now, the young folk over the last 20 years have opted out and want the modern life in the cities, so the society is a bit fractured now, although the matrilineal side of things still exists for the mostpart.

I think the Ainu people of japan are also considered matriarchal/lineal, or were. Many of these societies are probably quite siluted these days

and while looking around found the links below which have some interesting content

Women in Egypt: Matriarchy?

Women in the Aegean: Minoan Snake Goddess: Excursus. Matriliny in the Aegean Bronze Age

Interesting take on the Bible ( Genesis and Eve)

Eve and the Identity of Women: 3. Eve's Identity

Eve and the Identity of Women: 4. Genesis, Patriarchy, & Matriliny The last 3 paragraphs of this section particularly interesting.

You may have seen this: Second congress of matriachal Studies

Modern Matriarchal Studies

With constant ongoing and updated research in all fields I am probably very likely out of date with a lot of what I did learn about in the past and I probably know more about Asia than the rest of the world. Your studies and research are probably more up to date than mine

I tend to think that paleolithic societies very likely ran along matriachal/lineal lines, and yes the men did the hunting, but probably that was their main job. The community would have been run/organised by the woman, maybe some sort of council system of men and women were the elders, with the men stepping away from the day to day running of the community. Now that I can't prove Just my thoughts on the subject.

~Mosaic

PS: Just found this brief discussion- Matriarchy Women Female Matriarchal Society Mother Men Family

 

[Aisha Azar]

Matriarchies

Dear Mosaic,
Thanks. I will read the sources below. IN studying anthropology, on thing I generally found is that a matrilineal line does not necessarily mean matrilineal power, but more often just means that men inherit from their mother's side of the family. Also, often societies like the Khmer who were supposed to be matriarchal were usually not, but had some goddesses they worshipped. Of course no human woman can live up to that, can she??I have not read much evidence to show that there was equity in paleolithic societies, and I think part of the Hebrew myth of Cain and Able was about Cain doing "womens' work" which was not as "important" as men's work, plus was punishable because he was stepping out of his male role. (This is an opinion, not a fact, but one that makes sense in view of the clearly defined roles in that society.) As for China, this is a country that suffered a shortage of girls some years ago, because the One Child rule that the majority group was subject to had people either aborting daughters or abandoning them because everyone wanted sons. Chinese orphanages were full of female children. I am going to read your sources and thanks very much for taking the time to bring them to my attention, because I would very much like it if there was even one truly equitable society out there, besides meerkats!!
Regards,
A'isha

Dear A'isha,
I went looking to see if I still had some of the books, but I don't, they are from many years ago, One book I think was called Mothers and Amazons ( just looked up the author - Bertha Diener). This book is generally regarded as a classic of feminist matriarchal study. Her view was, that in
the past all human societies were matriarchal, then, at some point, most shifted to patriarchal societies and degenerated.

I have tried to find others on the web, to no avail, other than Friedrich Engels, I do vaguely remember reading something of his.

There are a number of tribal peoples around that have matriarchal/matrilineal systems, the Mosuo of China ( here is a link to a bit of info on them I found on the web:
FRONTLINE/WORLD . Rough Cut . The Women's Kingdom . Background Facts and Related Links | PBS

The Minangkabau people of Somatra Indonesia is another group that was ( I believe0 matriachal and matrilineal, the matriachal side of things is not so strong now, the young folk over the last 20 years have opted out and want the modern life in the cities, so the society is a bit fractured now, although the matrilineal side of things still exists for the mostpart.

I think the Ainu people of japan are also considered matriarchal/lineal, or were. Many of these societies are probably quite siluted these days

and while looking around found the links below which have some interesting content

Women in Egypt: Matriarchy?

Women in the Aegean: Minoan Snake Goddess: Excursus. Matriliny in the Aegean Bronze Age

Interesting take on the Bible ( Genesis and Eve)

Eve and the Identity of Women: 3. Eve's Identity

Eve and the Identity of Women: 4. Genesis, Patriarchy, & Matriliny The last 3 paragraphs of this section particularly interesting.

You may have seen this: Second congress of matriachal Studies

Modern Matriarchal Studies

With constant ongoing and updated research in all fields I am probably very likely out of date with a lot of what I did learn about in the past and I probably know more about Asia than the rest of the world. Your studies and research are probably more up to date than mine

I tend to think that paleolithic societies very likely ran along matriachal/lineal lines, and yes the men did the hunting, but probably that was their main job. The community would have been run/organised by the woman, maybe some sort of council system of men and women were the elders, with the men stepping away from the day to day running of the community. Now that I can't prove Just my thoughts on the subject.

~Mosaic

PS: Just found this brief discussion- Matriarchy Women Female Matriarchal Society Mother Men Family

 

[Mosaic]

[snip] As for China, this is a country that suffered a shortage of girls some years ago, because the One Child rule that the majority group was subject to had people either aborting daughters or abandoning them because everyone wanted sons. Chinese orphanages were full of female children. I am going to read your sources and thanks very much for taking the time to bring them to my attention, because I would very much like it if there was even one truly equitable society out there, besides meerkats!!
Regards,
A'isha

China now has the problem of too few girls in their mid 20s ( the age recommended for marriage) and they can pick and choose when it comes to a husband, so many boys are missing out and have begun trying to "import" a wife from other countries, i don't think it is working too well though Girls are much more valued today although the must have a male heir in rural areas is still alive and well. The Government has been doing a lot to change perceptions for a while now.

The tribal folk in China have for the mostpart been semi autonomous and followed their own cultures, because they stayed within their own 'confines' some were subject to the 1 child policy others were not or just ignored it. But I think these days many or the youth from tribal cultures want the big city life/money so the cultures are changing. Sad in a way, but pretty much the norm for the worlds youth, they all want what their peers have wether it be in their own country or the world in general. and as they say nothing is static .. everything changes.

As for meerkats .. they are awfully cute!
~Mosaic