Gender Discrimination, what do you think ? - Page 4

Darshiva · 02-06-2012, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashmir

(If you are in Western Australia you may have seen Gintaurus way back when - don't tell him he can only do X or Y!)

Do you mean Belyssa's son?

I've never met him but I have heard spectacular things about him from some dancers who've taken his workshops.

khanjar · 02-06-2012, 11:45 PM

I believe this discussion about how to teach males belly dance has been aired on these forums before, where it was generally decided, one teaches males just like one teaches females for the movement is the movement, it is what it is.

But how the movement differs between male and female is purely down to each gender's physiology and in some ways their personality and as a result may come across as though it is different when reality it's not.

But as to differences the minority gender aside, what about people of different sizes, people of different sizes and ages interpret the movement differently, their body says what goes and what doesn't, so how can movement tuition for the male gender be any different ?

Or is it nothing to do with movement tuition at all ?

Near three years I have been taking classes now and the way I have been taught, is the same way as the rest of the class, but even though we have been taught the same, my dance is different and that because my physiology is different, I tend to dance with muscles, my upper body work being the strongest, as is typical of male in anything, because that is the way we are, even un-muscled weeds like me. The ladies dance with joints and excel in lower body work, because that is the way it is, it is the way we have been designed to fulfil our primitive roles.

So because our physiology says we are different, did anyone ever consider males and females complement each other and has anyone ever seen a male and female belly dancer dancing a duo, I will tell you, it is awesome, just so complete, where a lone dancer can look kind of well, alone.

( The duo I saw was Tarik and Morocco when they visited the UK, their performance was just simply moving, it was as if all the puzzle pieces just slotted into place )

Perhaps before all this gender superiority crap came into being, the ancient dances that have come down to us through the ages, perhaps in our singular roles as individual dancers, we are just not getting it right and nor will we until we do get it right.

khanjar · 02-07-2012, 12:01 AM

But tips for teachers from a student who happens to be male ;

If you think a male is there for impure reasons, site them at the front of the class and treat them as anyone else. Curiously my teacher refers to all of us as 'guys' as in ''right guys, we'll do this....''.( Curious do you not think how terms of address have somehow become unisex, yet the people that actually belong to that term of address come in for such a hard time ?)

Now before I got involved, I read all the reasons why classes didn't want to include males, so when I did get a class, I acted by placing myself at the front of the class using the excuse I have poor hearing, that way the only ogling of wiggling asses is going to be the ladies behind me, so, I am no threat to anyone. But as a male I am glad I was at the front of the class, as I was there to learn dance not be distracted, even though I have the ability to turn the primitive me off when it is not wanted, most males, in fact all have that ability too, but some, well, some are poorly educated in manners.

khanjar · 02-07-2012, 05:26 AM

But another perspective from another label one doesn't often hear much about, an article from the blog site Tumbler on some of the very issues being discussed here ( and sure seems to have got his undergarments in a twist about it) ;

Transvestite • Just Smith.

Emmab81 · 02-07-2012, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashmir

Unless you were teaching something like haggala there isn't much you need to change. In Egypt (for example) men have the same movement vocab in social situations as women. Professional dancers have more restrictions though. So if you are teaching dance - you teach dance. (If you are in Western Australia you may have seen Gintaurus way back when - don't tell him he can only do X or Y!)

Thanks Kashmir - as I was on the spot, that is exactly what I did! This was the workshop I prepared, this was the workshop I presented but at the time I felt uncomfortable because I felt that I hadn't researched it properly and wasn't prepared. As soon as I got home I immediately started researching and was very relieved to find that I hadn't done the male student a dis-service and that he had got his money worth for the workshop as well as the female participants.

Zorba · 02-07-2012, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariadne

Well, first off I wouldn't use the media as an accurate view of US views. The news media for the most part spins extreme left and often does their best to make anything to the right look bad even if it's an extremely inaccurate portrayal. It's so bad some of them have actually realized they're completely out of touch and are creating "liaison" positions so they can hire someone to explain the motives behind things to their reporters since they just don't get it. The movie/TV industry for the most part panders to a group that is probably less then 20% of the population. On top of that the US is very large and we have a great many regions. While there is an "American" culture there is also an awful lot of subcultures.

Very true! I'll add that (IMNSHO) the media certainly is very leftist, and politically we're caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Socialism or Theocracy are what our choices boil down to. I don't want either - but I'm faced with communists/socialists on one side, and preachers/Bible thumpers on the other!

Quote:

That said the discrimination I have seen in the US occurs on the fringe of both sides. On one extreme is men expected to be grunting, belching, manly (cave) men and on the other they must be "sophisticated", metropolitan, unaggressive, feminists or they're not "real men". The reality is that most men fall somewhere in the middle but unfortunately the media seems to only recognize the two extremes and either treats men like they are "stupid" neanderthals or "civilized" metro-sexuals. It's gotten so bad that most of the men I know no longer watch most cable/TV shows because they're tired of the insults and stereotyping.

Very true. Commercials really are this way. Although I've given up on TV years ago because its an insipid waste of time.

As for me, I'm way beyond "metro-sexual" I guess...

Quote:

Also most of the men I know have absolutely no problem with the idea of a male bellydancer. They may think it's odd and it doesn't mean their interested but hey, whatever floats their boat. That's individually of course. Society in general is unfortunately rarely individual but rather the perception of whoever and whatever group is the loudest. Right now the loudest is usually those represented by the media... and since public perception also tends to shape public policy...

Otherwise known as the miasma of "Political Correctness".

Quote:

Personally I get annoyed at both the people (often men) who seem to think that my husband is a "pansy" because he actually cares about my opinion and the ones who think he is "uncultured" because he couldn't care less about name brand suits etc. Fortunately in reality they are a minority (albeit a loud one) but seriously people, get over yourselves.

I've been saying it for years: The biggest obstacle to "Men's Liberation" isn't women - is other MEN!

As for suits - NEVER again! I consider the suit and the necktie to be the mark of the male slave and the symbol of male oppression (again, mostly by other MEN).

Quote:

PS. My husband has been called a liar by more then one feminist man when he told them that not only doesn't he have a problem working for women he prefers female bosses, which he does. Evidently in their world view every man in existence is by nature prejudiced against women so he must be deluded or lying. Please, like I would have married him if that was true.

Its been my observation that many women just "don't have a sense of humor" as the saying goes when it comes to men working for them. Much like the oft quoted (and true enough) "Good ol' boy's club", many times men working for women aren't part of the "Good ol' girls club" and can't "get away" with anything - but the girls can! My wife, who was in the fast track "power career" for many years, confirms this.

With that said, although I've never worked for a woman, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I prefer women Doctors, and other "personal professionals" as well. In fact my Tattoo artist, my dentist, my hair stylist, my nail tech, and my esthetician are all women. Granted, the latter 3 are traditionally so - but I wouldn't have it any other way. The dentist was "the luck of the draw" (she's fantastic), and I only trust a woman's esthetics when it comes to artwork that's going to be permanent on my body! My current doc is a guy - and he's terrific (he pierced my ears back in the day)!

As for teaching males - for those who haven't seen it, here's my article on the subject:

Male Student, Now What?

As always, suggestions on improvements to this - or any of my - article(s) are VERY welcome!

Kashmir · 02-07-2012, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darshiva

Do you mean Belyssa's son?

I've never met him but I have heard spectacular things about him from some dancers who've taken his workshops.

Yes. I used to meet him at the Winter Warmup in Brisbane - I always looked forward to the years he performed in the show.

Ariadne · 02-07-2012, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Its been my observation that many women just "don't have a sense of humor" as the saying goes when it comes to men working for them. Much like the oft quoted (and true enough) "Good ol' boy's club", many times men working for women aren't part of the "Good ol' girls club" and can't "get away" with anything - but the girls can! My wife, who was in the fast track "power career" for many years, confirms this.

Interesting. I had my husband read this and he says he has never seen it. According to him there has never been a problem with his female bosses having a "sense of humor" where any of the employee's were concerned nor was there ever any question who the boss was. I suspect that it's an individual thing rather then gender just like the "good ol' boys", some are and some aren't. I also wonder if there is a difference in "etiquette" for comfortable working relations and since my husband has mostly worked for women he just has the right "language" so he hasn't had the problems.

Kashmir · 02-07-2012, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

my dance is different and that because my physiology is different, I tend to dance with muscles, my upper body work being the strongest, as is typical of male in anything, because that is the way we are, even un-muscled weeds like me. The ladies dance with joints and excel in lower body work, because that is the way it is, it is the way we have been designed to fulfil our primitive roles.

Off topic I know, but everyone dances with their muscles. Muscles make the bones move. The usual difference is those who use their leg muscles to generate hip movement versus those who use their abdominal muscles. What you seem to be saying is you do less hip work and more upperbody work. Embrace the dark side - move those hips

Zorba · 02-07-2012, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariadne

Interesting. I had my husband read this and he says he has never seen it. According to him there has never been a problem with his female bosses having a "sense of humor" where any of the employee's were concerned nor was there ever any question who the boss was. I suspect that it's an individual thing rather then gender just like the "good ol' boys", some are and some aren't. I also wonder if there is a difference in "etiquette" for comfortable working relations and since my husband has mostly worked for women he just has the right "language" so he hasn't had the problems.

That may well be. I'd assume that me myself would be fine with a woman boss as I "run with" mostly women anyway, and communicate with them far better than most guys - I had to re-learn communications when I entered "this woman's world" of Belly Dance. Gals communicate way different from guys - I won't say that I'm an expert at woman communications, but I'm far better than most guys.

After 28+ years marriage - my wife can STILL surprise me in the communications dept!

OTOH, I've seen situations - as has my wife - where a male employee of a female boss had WAY less leeway than a woman employee. That may very well be more a communications issue than anything else. *shrug*

02-06-2012, 11:45 PM	#32
khanjar V.I.P. Join Date: May 2008 Location: Plymouth, England Posts: 1,514	I believe this discussion about how to teach males belly dance has been aired on these forums before, where it was generally decided, one teaches males just like one teaches females for the movement is the movement, it is what it is. But how the movement differs between male and female is purely down to each gender's physiology and in some ways their personality and as a result may come across as though it is different when reality it's not. But as to differences the minority gender aside, what about people of different sizes, people of different sizes and ages interpret the movement differently, their body says what goes and what doesn't, so how can movement tuition for the male gender be any different ? Or is it nothing to do with movement tuition at all ? Near three years I have been taking classes now and the way I have been taught, is the same way as the rest of the class, but even though we have been taught the same, my dance is different and that because my physiology is different, I tend to dance with muscles, my upper body work being the strongest, as is typical of male in anything, because that is the way we are, even un-muscled weeds like me. The ladies dance with joints and excel in lower body work, because that is the way it is, it is the way we have been designed to fulfil our primitive roles. So because our physiology says we are different, did anyone ever consider males and females complement each other and has anyone ever seen a male and female belly dancer dancing a duo, I will tell you, it is awesome, just so complete, where a lone dancer can look kind of well, alone. ( The duo I saw was Tarik and Morocco when they visited the UK, their performance was just simply moving, it was as if all the puzzle pieces just slotted into place ) Perhaps before all this gender superiority crap came into being, the ancient dances that have come down to us through the ages, perhaps in our singular roles as individual dancers, we are just not getting it right and nor will we until we do get it right. __________________ Variety is the spice of life; Ignore people one day and annoy them the next.

02-07-2012, 12:01 AM	#33
khanjar V.I.P. Join Date: May 2008 Location: Plymouth, England Posts: 1,514	But tips for teachers from a student who happens to be male ; If you think a male is there for impure reasons, site them at the front of the class and treat them as anyone else. Curiously my teacher refers to all of us as 'guys' as in ''right guys, we'll do this....''.( Curious do you not think how terms of address have somehow become unisex, yet the people that actually belong to that term of address come in for such a hard time ?) Now before I got involved, I read all the reasons why classes didn't want to include males, so when I did get a class, I acted by placing myself at the front of the class using the excuse I have poor hearing, that way the only ogling of wiggling asses is going to be the ladies behind me, so, I am no threat to anyone. But as a male I am glad I was at the front of the class, as I was there to learn dance not be distracted, even though I have the ability to turn the primitive me off when it is not wanted, most males, in fact all have that ability too, but some, well, some are poorly educated in manners. __________________ Variety is the spice of life; Ignore people one day and annoy them the next.

02-07-2012, 05:26 AM	#34
khanjar V.I.P. Join Date: May 2008 Location: Plymouth, England Posts: 1,514	But another perspective from another label one doesn't often hear much about, an article from the blog site Tumbler on some of the very issues being discussed here ( and sure seems to have got his undergarments in a twist about it) ; Transvestite • Just Smith. __________________ Variety is the spice of life; Ignore people one day and annoy them the next. Last edited by khanjar; 02-07-2012 at 05:28 AM.