Thread: Is this the true history of belly dancing?

Originally Posted by Shakti

Of course Bellydance is enjoyed by millions of people. It is social, but it is generally viewed and not performed by millions of people in the Mid East.

So what do you call what those millions of people do at parties? What do you call what I witnessed in coffee shops in Cairo - by guys just sitting around hanging out with their mates? It certainly looked like belly dance to me.

Originally Posted by Shakti

The nomads of Egypt are not Roma gypsies ( I have seen dance video's calling ghawazee dance gypsy bedouin, it is not wrong - Gypsy is a word that means alot of things to a lot of people) Though both are nomadic. Egyptian nomads I am pretty sure are bedouin and I am 'pretty sure' they are Arab descent. Not all Egyptians are Arab but most are. Arabs came to North Africa to spread Islam to the Berber Tribes of North Africa....okay stopping the tangent here.

I guess I will reiterate what most people will agree on that the origin of bellydance is not clear. but looking at Genetic markers of present day people does give life to the human journey, and possible evidence to the story of the dance/genre we all adore.

Although Egypt is politcally Arab, Egyptians are more Berber than Arab and there is also Nubian blood - but also have genetic markers in common with the easter Mediterranean and southern Europe. Or as Arredi et al put it

"the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well."

Originally Posted by Greek Bonfire

Aziyade, can you explain when local dancers started adding ballet to their dancing? From what I've read and heard from dancers from Egypt, they are now starting to take up many western dancers as a standard part of their education.

(Foreign) professional teachers tended to be teachers of ballet. This gave dancers a certain legitimacy.

The national folkloric troupes - whose dancers were considered more acceptable than street or nightclub belly dancers - made extensive use of ballet teachers. These days many notable belly dancers were trained - at some point - within this tradition.

I heard that some years back the training requirements for your belly dancer ticket in Egypt included ballet (not sure if as well as or instead of folkloric).

Fat Chance Belly Dance Instruction

I just read this entire article and I don't agree with most of it. What do you all think?

Originally Posted by Aziyade

BellyLove, some comments are just made by jerks, but most of the time when I have heard, say an Egyptian, criticize an American or Russian dancer it's not because of the movements or her style. It's because she is completely ignoring the music.

I can see that. I just think sometimes when say, an Egyptian person knows the performer is of a different culture, they already have their mind set that they are not going to like them and it's going to take a person who dances exactly how that Egyptian person likes the dance, for them to change their mind.

Originally Posted by Aziyade

I agree. And we have a more recent example -- the coin hip scarf.

Why did you have to pick something bad?! Isn't there anything actually used in the ME culture?! Like a type of bra top or something? I feel like the chiffon skirts and sparkly bras weren't common until the mid 1900's... am I wrong?

Originally Posted by Aziyade

it's hard to lose a lifetime ballet "accent."

I figured that's why some have that "accent"... and then that style of dance spreads around those regions making it the Russian/Eastern European way to belly dance. I do like that style of dancing. I actually like many styles, it just depends on the specific dancer and what I'm in the mood for.

Originally Posted by Kashmir

But belly dance is their dance. If you are belly dancing - you are doing - by definition - a Middle Eastern dance. If what you do gets a WTF reaction - you are not doing it right - as belly dance. Although you may be doing something quite valid in a different dance genre.

Well, then whose not doing belly dance- the Egyptians or the Turks, because neither of them dance the exact same so one of them must not be belly dance. According to you, it's whoever did it first, which may be neither. Many Eastern European belly dancers get a wtf reaction because their style isn't liked. That doesn't mean it's not belly dance. I get that on a great level there needs to be authenticity in the movements, but because someone does not belly dance the exact way it's common for many Egyptian belly dancers to dance, does not mean they are not belly dancing.

Originally Posted by Kashmir

I've given up looking at "belly dance" on YouTube because about 90% is not belly dance - of any style. Just some belly bunny in her underwear trying to be cool

Wow, really, 90%? I think a lot of people are not amazing, but that doesn't mean they are not belly dancing. You can be a horrible dancer but still be belly dancing. If one is doing ballet, but isn't a good, that doesn't mean she/he is not doing ballet- they just happen to not be good at it.

Originally Posted by Kashmir

And how many Hollywood movies include (real) belly dancers? Because most of the movies I've seen with belly dancers in them were made in Egypt - not the States.

I'm thinking of older Hollywood movies and the styling in many of them is the same style that I see today on ME dancers. I don't know what was proper then, but something does not have to be proper to influence a culture.

Re the Youtube thing. If someone put on a tutu and ballet shoes and posts themselves goofing around to Swan Lake, I personally wouldn't say that they were dancing ballet even badly. In the same way, someone bearing their midriff and wriggling around to Shakira isn't ballet dance.

Originally Posted by jenc

Re the Youtube thing. If someone put on a tutu and ballet shoes and posts themselves goofing around to Swan Lake, I personally wouldn't say that they were dancing ballet even badly. In the same way, someone bearing their midriff and wriggling around to Shakira isn't ballet dance.

True, but I wouldn't say those types of vids comprise most of the belly dance videos on YT. I have seen hundreds of Youtube belly dance vids and I have yet to see one that fits those descriptions (toddlers exempt). While I'm sure they exist, there is a vast area between "belly bunnies" and amazing & authentic dancers. I would say most fit in that vast area.

Originally Posted by Belly Love

Well, then whose not doing belly dance- the Egyptians or the Turks, because neither of them dance the exact same so one of them must not be belly dance. According to you, it's whoever did it first, which may be neither. Many Eastern European belly dancers get a wtf reaction because their style isn't liked. That doesn't mean it's not belly dance. I get that on a great level there needs to be authenticity in the movements, but because someone does not belly dance the exact way it's common for many Egyptian belly dancers to dance, does not mean they are not belly dancing.

There is a legitimate and specific style of belly dance unique to Turkey. When some Turkish dancers try to dance in the Egyptian style to Egyptian music, it can look a bit off. It has nothing to do with "who did it first" it's a stylistic difference in musicality. It's all a matter of musical interpretation. I'm sure it would look just as WTF to Turks if they saw an Egyptian dancer trying to do Turkish Oryantal. So it's not exactly that they aren't belly dancing, but that they aren't specifically doing Turkish Oryantal or Raqs Sharqi quite right. I can't talk about Lebanese belly dance, I don't know much about it. Belly dance in Eastern Europe does have a unique accent and is not an indigenous dance form. That's why it looks a bit WTF to a person who comes from a country where the dance is from.

Most of these arguments boil down to "It's everyone's dance and anyone can change it to suit their artistic vision", vs. "This is a cultural dance and it should only develop in it's countries of origin and stay authentic." We spin off into origin theories, defining belly dance and if should it include styles developed in other countries and how far from authentic belly dance you can get until you have to change the name to something else. My viewpoints and opinions have shifted over the years. It's best to do lots of research from academic sources and keep an open mind.

Originally Posted by Jane

Most of these arguments boil down to "It's everyone's dance and anyone can change it to suit their artistic vision", vs. "This is a cultural dance and it should only develop in it's countries of origin and stay authentic."

I feel like it's a bit of both. Yes, it's a ME dance but countries outside of the ME do this dance with their own flavor. It's always a ME dance unless it veers too far from the original dance.

It's like English- It's spoken differently in the states than it is in England, but it's still English. It may not always be proper or the authentic way to speak it, but it's still valid.

I read this in some books about the Dom People, but it was a while back, I have it posted on my website, when i was studying up on gypsies and india I'm sure it's on the web somewhere, I'm sure someone had to have copied some of the text. I will check but these are some of the notes I have anyway.

"Ghawazi" (Gypsies)The Dom people which they are believed to be related to the Domba people of India,the Domari language that they spoke suggest that they may have haled from the indian subcontinent. It was around the 18th centery that they danced in egypt. It is said that the ghawazi style could have gave rise to the Egyptian raqs sharqi, I think it said that in 1834 they were banshed from egypt or parts of.



I posted that in another thread on this forum a few days ago, Really the only way to find out for sure where belly dance really came from would be either to be an immortal and have been born at the beginning of time or to bring back some of the died of that time and ask them some questions, but nether of those look close to happening so yeah. I don't know, I have read a lot of things and I still study on it and I have been in this art form for 14 years, I have had talks and arguments about where belly dance came from, I did'nt want an argument, because I think when people are talking about history of anything there should be talking not arguments, I like facts and truths, now all we really know as far as I can see is that "belly dance" as it is called sometimes came from the east/middle east, but where and what culture in the east is not a sure thing, sure you will have the some people say well there are Egyptian Hieroglyphs that show "Belly dance" and I'm like ok and how do you know that this is what they are showing for sure? Unless I had a person from that time perido tell me that this is how you dance these pictures and then they do belly dance I can't just go by what people of today say. Also lets say it is true, what does that mean really? Does it mean that it was first made and danced in egypt? It's not as if there were never other races of people inslaved in egpyt, how do we know that they did not make it and it clamed by egyptians, there are to many what if's to say where for sure, then there are the Gypsy travelers, who could have haled from anywhere at that time. Really I have to say I will study and study but I may never know for sure, but I am done with any arguments about it, there are no cold hard facts as of yet so I will just keep on calling it the Dance of the east/middle east.

Now when Belly dance came to america I wonder did people really think that no new styles would be born? Maybe they did think this, When I see ATS or Tribal fusion Belly dance, not once did I not connect it with Belly dance, I know a lot of belly dancers will say that it is not belly dance but who are they to say, after all when a dance style that is like belly dance spreads far and wide it will change a bit. Like the fact that there were already different styles of this dance, but ofcourse these styles arouse in the middle east first , you have Egyptian, turkish, and Lebonese all these styles are different and they all have different kinds of music that they use to interpret Belly dance, Is that not what has been done with new style such as ATS and it's sister Tribal fusion? ofcourse the movement will look different a bit as it should because as many have pointed out the music is a very big part of this dance style, now if they were dancing one of the other styles to the music they use... well then it would not look right and that would be very wrong.

New styles to me is not wrong and it can't help but happen as cultures are different and we have so many in america because that is what we are a gathering of many cultures, things will evolve even if they should not and we don't want them to as the word evolve means to develop by gradual changes; unfold and to develop gradually by a process of growth and change
I'm not saying that the dance should change only that with different cultures come different interpretations, wrong or right it happens.