West meets East.

Anyone watching this;

BBC - BBC One Programmes - The Man Who Cycled the World - Previous episodes

more details here;

BBC - Scotland Outdoors Programmes - Pedalling Around

The story of a cyclist who embarked on a 18,000 mile trip around the world, with very good footage of what he meets on the way. This Evening's episode showed the journey through Pakistan and India and the cyclist's commentry on route.

What was of interest was where he encountered one of the Indian Hindu festivals where men were dancing in the street, hips and hands. The author commented on how uncomfortable he was with being commented on his physique from men, and the touching from men when in communication. People in the West are just not used to this kind of treatment, and this I feel says something not very good about our society.

Anyway, the series continues most of this week if anyone is interested.

khanjar said:

Anyone watching this;

BBC - BBC One Programmes - The Man Who Cycled the World - Previous episodes

more details here;

BBC - Scotland Outdoors Programmes - Pedalling Around

The story of a cyclist who embarked on a 18,000 mile trip around the world, with very good footage of what he meets on the way. This Evening's episode showed the journey through Pakistan and India and the cyclist's commentry on route.

What was of interest was where he encountered one of the Indian Hindu festivals where men were dancing in the street, hips and hands. The author commented on how uncomfortable he was with being commented on his physique from men, and the touching from men when in communication. People in the West are just not used to this kind of treatment, and this I feel says something not very good about our society.

Anyway, the series continues most of this week if anyone is interested.

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Dear Khanjar,
I was born in India and it was very hard for me initially in Australia not to touch other men while communicating with them. Luckily I surrounded myself with people who understand my situation and cultural upbringing and they don’t care whether I touch them or kiss them on the cheek. I find it hard that touching another male is such a big issue in Western Society, When I meet my dad I always give him a hug and he always kiss me on the cheek, I do the same with all male members of my family including friends.

I think in some cultures the male has to prove their butchness or masculinity by not doing things which are considered feminine. I can save myself if I get attacked or I can fight back when needed, but I don’t think I have to prove that bit by doing so called manly things for no reason. In many African and Asian countries the missionaries tried to define sexual behaviour by gender , In India they even teach that men holding each others hand is not a thing that god would want to to see.

It’s a very complex topic and probably the hardest psycho analysing one can do. Most studies show masculinity as rather fragile provisional , something to be own and then defended and something under constant threat of loss.

Regards to all.

What made me put up this post, was when I was watching and listening to the cyclist talking about his uncomfortable feeling when in the situation he was, I was at that point thinking about the parallels with the recent 'Orientalism ' thread.

What I thought was obviously the cyclist had his 'Gaydar ' operating, as he took the touching and the sights he saw as that, what would possibly be referred to as gay in the west. The men who were being friendly and welcoming to a western face in their town on their special day were doing with he, what they do with each other, where I expect they themselves would not see it as homosexual contact. I suppose there may be another level of friendliness for those so attracted to each other.

What I am saying here, is most of the west has got it very wrong, we are perhaps deficient in our communication skills. It has got to be black or white, contact or no contact to define sexuality. And why is the west so wrapped up in sexuality, we must be as a race so insecure.

The parallel I saw with the western view of oriental, those of the middle east, would still exist even so long after the colonials and others made references to the natives sexuality because of how men in those countries can be with their fellow men, which I suppose is similar to how the Indians were in in that film. The west either simply fails to see the levels of communication and does not understand, or is in secret admiration for these people, but lost as how they feel about what they see.

Outing a person, race or country as supposedly homosexual is very much the same as racism, often the people that single others out or point fingers do so, because they are so insecure themselves. What they despise or hate with such venom, is a reflection upon themselves.

Dipali, India is a country I have always wanted to go to from a very young age, but one needs more time than our meagre vacation allowance to really see the country.

Thank you for your input Khanjar.

I have not seen the programme so I don’t know what exactly they showed but the cyclist’s thought was no different to many other Westerner who thinks the same way about India and some other country where its common to see man being affectionate to each other. Many people still view being affectionate is either a sign of femineity or a gay person. I don’t know why that is.

khanjar said:

What I am saying here, is most of the west has got it very wrong, we are perhaps deficient in our communication skills. It has got to be black or white, contact or no contact to define sexuality. And why is the west so wrapped up in sexuality, we must be as a race so insecure.

Click to expand...

I don't think you can say that one particular group of people has it wrong. Speaking from my experiences, I wouldn't agree either that we have communication difficulties either, lol. We just communicate in different ways. I can at least say that for Northeners in Britain we tend to be very communicative, and friendly and open. We talk with our hands a lot, (I certainly do) and we touch each other without a second thought. Perhaps we do it in a different way but I would disagree that Westeners have communicating deficiencies. I know that you can say that in England at least we tend not to say things out of politeness and not be too over the top with our emotions, but that doesn't mean we can't communicate properly, some just choose not to.

Also on sexuality. I don't agree that it has to be contact or no contact to define it. Obviously there is the exception. I think an example would be that lap dancing/strip clubs (I only know this from watching a program by the WI btw, lol) the dancers cannot (or are not supposed to) cross the four inch boundary with the customer. They are sexual without touching. I think we do appreciate how people can be sexual in the way they act and move. And I hink to a greater extent we can pick up on if someone is being sexual/sensual/flirting or not without the need for touching.

I think in Britain at least we have a problem with our confidence when talking about sex, that is why it is such a big subject. I know from plenty of experience (as working for a rep of a popular company) that a group of people will have problems talking about sex. As the party goes on, the group open up more to discussion. We fear what people will think of us, generally we have little confidence to say how we feel about sex. It is not something we really talk about. I cannot speak for other countries but I know that here it is a topic which people try to avoid or are embarassed about.

I think it goes two ways when cultures mix. No one culture is necessarily wrong in communicating, we are just different. Each culture has it's taboo's and hinderences which make talking about certain things and behaving in certain ways a lot less common, and can make others uncomfortable.

I think men in particular would feel intimidated and slightly taken aback by such a culture change. Men do tend to choose to live up to this image of being 'one of the lads'. I think when you see a guy who is more feminine in our society you do tend to think he is homosexual, but that is because there's not many guys who behave like this who aren't. When two guys touch here, it's usually a pat on the back, or a play fight. I don't think we are scared to behave differently, rather that is how we are shaped by our culture. This is how we typically act and respond, just as there the men touched differently.

Dipali said:

Thank you for your input Khanjar.

I have not seen the programme so I don’t know what exactly they showed but the cyclist’s thought was no different to many other Westerner who thinks the same way about India and some other country where its common to see man being affectionate to each other. Many people still view being affectionate is either a sign of femineity or a gay person. I don’t know why that is.

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I believe it is here ;

BBC iPlayer - The Man Who Cycled the World: Episode 2

I have not used the iplayer before so don't know how it goes with this thing, check the terms and conditions I suppose.

I suspect the part that caught my eye is towards the end, last 15-20 minutes where the cyclist was in India.

I totally disagree about the cyclist in this film having his gaydar on. Where he was talking about those men in India he said that it took a bit of getting used to for him (fair observation), that he didn't know how to react to the way people he didn't know were interacting with him, and that he was uncomfortable because he didn't know how to react (stick to your cultural rules and keep distant, try to mimic theirs and push your behaviour out of its comfort zone, am I coming across as polite or rude or pushy or...? aaargh!!).

Did I miss something? I didn't pick up on any implications about their sexuality, or his. Or any value judgements about whether they were "wrong" or not; he was just recognising a cultural difference. If you can't do that in a video travel diary you shouldn't be bothering, IMO.

Now I thought the bit where the cook didn't have his rice and dhal ready quickly might have had an Orientalist tinge. But not the guys dancing.

And another cultural difference:

"No interactions, no conversations with women for about a month and a half"

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Different cultures. IMO it's too sweeping to say the East is right about something and the West is wrong. Some cultures are just more touchy feely than others, though I do agree the terror some guys seem to have about inadvertently doing something "gay" is just paranoid and people could lighten up a lot. But not everyone is like that. And in lots of Western societies guys hugging and kisses on the cheek is just normal social interaction. It's not all uptight Brits and yobs looking for excuses to beat people up.