The Great Male Belly Dancer Dust-up: Masculinity Defined

Tarik Sultan

New member
Shanazel here, from her secret bunker far beneath the Rocky Mountains, dressed in all sorts of fireproof clothes.

I do think men can dance as well as women. I love all of you guys, love to watch your video clips, will attend any performance you do within two hundred miles of my front door, and will enthusiastically tuck dollar bills in your bedlah if that will make you happy.

.....How much are you giving in tips...tips do make me happy and right now I'm sad. VERY, VERY SAD! Please make me happy.I am not questioning your right or ability to perform; I do question the billing of the performance as belly dance.

The best way I can think of to explain my point of view is this: once I saw an actress named Connie Stevens perform "If I Were a Rich Man" from Fiddler on the Roof, in full Tevye gear and full Tevye dancing style. She did a creditable rendition, but while I enjoyed her performance, she lacked the essence and physical presence to make me believe she was a Russian Jew in the full flourish of manhood.

I know what you mean. This is why I don't like to see guys immitating women....Crap, you made me do it again! Gimme them undies!
But honestly, I feel the same way when I watch some dancers. They totally miss the point about what the dance is supposed to be about and spen their whole time trying to impress the audience with tricks and gimicks.

When I watch a man belly dance, I sense a similar lack of essence and physical presence that makes a dance belly dance. That does not mean it is not equally appealing or interesting or that the dancer is less skilled, but it looks different from belly dance, it feels different from belly dance, it is different from belly dance.

Well, given the fact that classical RQAks was deliberately designed to display a feminine ideal, there isn't any way that your going to get the same essence from a man's performance. that doesn't mean that it's not the same dance. For example, classical ballets created in the 19th century were designed to represent a feminie ideal as well. As a matter of fact, if the choreographers didn't need the upper body strength of the male dancers to help simulate the flight of the ballarina, the role of male dancers would have dissapeared totally. The only thing they were used for practically was to lift the ballerinas.

In the 20th century, the role of male dancers got a shot in the arm. The way a ballerina and a male dancer dances is different. Men do not do point work for instance and women do not do as much of the athletic leaps and jumps that the men do. The feeling and essence of the two are different, even though they are using the same basic movement vocabulary. What they do with it and what they express through it is different, but that doesn't mean that its not the same dance. It is. Its just that one is male and one is female.

In the same way, the way a man expresses himself is going to be different from the way a woman expresses herself. For god's sake can you see me or Jim Boz trotting around the stage trying to be a della'a like Dina? I mean with a straight face? Now I know that there are guys out there who could pull it off, but I ain't one of them.

I can be very sensual when I dance and even more so when I teach a dance class, but its not the same as a woman. However, a woman taking my class can understand what I'm doing and express her own womanlyness.
I have a student named Ariel who is an incredible dancer. Much of how she expresses the music and her vocabulary she learned from me, but when she dances, she looks nothing like me. Same moves, but the spirit is so undinaibly femine you would never know that I taught her if she didn't tell you. Same dance, different aspects depending on if the dancer is male or female. Quite honestly, when I see a man dance, I want to see him express his maleness, not try to immitate a woman. You want to see what they can bring to the dance that is unique to their spirit.
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
Quite honestly, when I see a man dance, I want to see him express his maleness, not try to immitate a woman. You want to see what they can bring to the dance that is unique to their spirit.
This all gets into definitions - again...

Define "Imitate a woman". You'll very quickly get into meaningless rulebooks, I'm afraid. The second half of the above quotation rings true with me, but it seems to contradict the first half. *shrug* Of course, this *does* get into my last hair splitting debate with Aisha about (my view that) I can NOT imitate a woman as I'm not one. Just like I can NOT imitate a Tarik, because I'm not one. I can only imitate myself (Aisha and I have agreed to almost but not quite agree on this, let's NOT re-open this debate for EVERYONE'S sanity!!).

The most important thing for ANY performer to do is to BE HER/HIMSELF and dance as same. All else is secondary. In other words - be REAL. The "problem" with a large majority of male dancers that I've seen (IMHO :D) is that they're so busy trying to prove that they're "male" that they lose track of the fact that they're Belly Dancers (Tarik NOT with standing, of course.)! It just makes me wanna scream sometimes. Something like "Get OVER it already, yea you're a male, so what, who cares? Show me your GRACE, BEAUTY, and EMOTION. That's what this is all about."

Aziz was the perfect example of this - no goofball male tricks, just utter beauty. He didn't let his gender get in the way and the viewer/audience quickly FORGOT (Or at least I do when I see old videos of his) what gender he was in the enjoyment of his performance. As it should be.

As for males not being able to Belly Dance because of their gender - that makes about as much sense as males not being able to WALK because of their gender. Yea, a male walk generally but not always has a different quality than a female walk, but its still a walk. Shanazel and I will have to agree to disagree here - it doesn't pass the duck test.

Or so it seems to me at 5 AM when I can't sleep and really should be in bed!
 
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Tarik Sultan

New member
This all gets into definitions - again...

Define "Imitate a woman". You'll very quickly get into meaningless rulebooks, I'm afraid. The second half of the above quotation rings true with me, but it seems to contradict the first half. *shrug* Of course, this *does* get into my last hair splitting debate with Aisha about (my view that) I can NOT imitate a woman as I'm not one. Just like I can NOT imitate a Tarik, because I'm not one. I can only imitate myself (Aisha and I have agreed to almost but not quite agree on this, let's NOT re-open this debate for EVERYONE'S sanity!!).

To immitate a woman, means to act, dress, walk and use mannerisms that would cause the casual observer to think that a man was in fact a female and not a man. You often use the phrase that a male dancer should llok like a belly dancer, exactly what does that mean? I understand that what youare against are what you perceive to be the hipocracy and unfairness of rigid gender roles. I can understand where you are coming from and on certain points I may even agree, however, if you apply this to men, you have to apply the same rule to women as well.

The belly dancer image was created to display a concept of a certain feminine ideal. It is still very much about presenting a feminine ideal. Why is it that that you're not equally turned off by this construct? If we should disregard imposed gender roles, then you should also encourage female dancers not to wear lipstick and makeup. They should wear crew cuts and forget about all that cleavage and slits and wear shirts and slacks.

When you do Greek dance, you wear the gender correct costume. You don't wear a head scarf and apron like the women do. The fez, fustanilla, and vest are the clothes for men as dictated by the gender specific role for men in that culture. If we follow your logic, why be limited to this role. If you have no problem wearing makeup and long earings in Oriental dance, why not do the same in Greek dance?

The most important thing for ANY performer to do is to BE HER/HIMSELF and dance as same. All else is secondary. In other words - be REAL. The "problem" with a large majority of male dancers that I've seen (IMHO :D) is that they're so busy trying to prove that they're "male" that they lose track of the fact that they're Belly Dancers (Tarik NOT with standing, of course.)! It just makes me wanna scream sometimes. Something like "Get OVER it already, yea you're a male, so what, who cares? Show me your GRACE, BEAUTY, and EMOTION. That's what this is all about."

Okay, so why doesn't the same apply to women. Couldn't you say that all that make up and chifon, not to mention paded bras an example of women trying too hard to prove they're "female"?

Like I've said before, Raks Sharki was designed to reflect a cultural ideal of femininity and glamore. However, no one ever thought in terms of designing the dance to reflect an ideal of masqulinity. Like it or not, all cultures have gender roles. In our civilization, there are gender roles as to how a man presents himself as versus a woman. Male Ballet Dancers don't wear tutus and point shoes. Male flamenco dancers don't wear long gowns with ruffled trains and male Hula dancers don't wear mumus. So why should male middle eastern dancers wear articles of dress and accessories that are traditionally and culturally worn by females?

Personally I love the fact that we are different. I don't want to see women who look just like the guy sitting next to me on the bus. I love the things that make her look like a woman as defined by our culture. I love her womanliness, curves etc, I love it and I love to see her express it through the dance. I just don't think that we should take that to mean that women are inferiour to us in spirit and intellect, or lack the freedome to determine their own destinies just because they have less upper body strength and flesh between their legs than I do.

By the same token, when I go out with my mother, I don't want people thinking I'm her daughter. I don't want to wear colorfull eyeshadow, or lipstick and loud rouge or jewlery that was designed for women because these things do not enhance my masculine beauty. Further more, these things do not match the image of masculinity in our culture and to wearing them sends certain messages. I am aware of the fact that at different times and cultures, men did wear these things, but that's not this time or this place. I love the way I look and I think I am beautiful and I love being a man and dont feel that I need makeup, (except to hide bad shaving scars) lipstick to be attractive. To be vulgar for a second, I don't want to look like a chich with a d%$k.:eek: .....No offence to any chicks with d&%ks out there:eek:

Aziz was the perfect example of this - no goofball male tricks, just utter beauty. He didn't let his gender get in the way and the viewer/audience quickly FORGOT (Or at least I do when I see old videos of his) what gender he was in the enjoyment of his performance. As it should be.

I don't feel comfortable with this concept and I don't think its fair. Women don't strive for their audiences to forget that they are women, why should I want my audience to forget that I'm a man. Do I have to be a unick in order to be a true artist? This just seems like one should be appoligetic for being a man and strive to hide it or in some way compensate for it. A good female dancers doesn't hide behind her feminity, she strives to intergrate everything, her appearance, expression and personality as well as her talent, I strive to do the same. As for stupid male tricks, i don't know what those are. You would have to tell me or show me. I can only say that because this is a female dominated activity, and because most men coming into it have no role models and because people do make assumptions about a guys sexuality when they do something that is a female dominated activity, they worry about the misperception and want to compensate for it. All male dancers have to deal with this, no matter what form of dance they do, except maybe hip-hop.

There is nothing wrong with the culturally defined gender images that we have. The problem is when we try to subordinate one sex to another or deny one sex the basic rights, privaledges and dignity we all deserve as human beings. I agree with a lot of your points of view, but on this one I'm afraid that I will have to agree to disagree with you, no matter how much I admire and appreciate you.
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
Uh...

Tarik - I think you need to re-interpret what I was saying - OBVIOUSLY I put my foot in my mouth and didn't communicate well enough!

For instance: "Stupid Male Tricks" - I'm not saying YOU do them, I'm saying a lot of (other) male dancers do. Not you, hopefully not me, not DaVid, and not Aziz.

I've always found that you and I either agree 100% or agree 99.5% on just about everything about this dance. I don't think that's changed...

Sometimes I get so *frustrated* with the limitations of the written word on message boards!

It is, and always has been my position that Belly Dance is neither "Masculine" nor "Feminine", just "Human", BUT that
it (currently) resides in a "Feminine" context. A subtle, but important difference and is my interpretation of what you've been saying as well... (?)
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
Great....

I just typed a long, HOPEFULLY better thought out reply, and lost the whole thing.

Sigh!

The super short executive summary:

My oft repeated "thing" that the only differences between males and females THAT MATTER are biological. The rest is made up, and therefore is, in the ultimate analysis, artificial (Hi Aisha! :D) . A bit still in my clipboard that references your (Tarik's) previous post:

Cleavage is biology. Slits are man made. Since I don't have cleavage, I don't worry about it! Slits on the other hand may (or may not) bear some thought!

Trying to reconstruct:

I have no problems with telling women to forget the makeup and lipstick, and wear crewcuts and pants. Indeed - THEY ALREADY DO! Which is fine - all these things are neither "Masculine" nor "Feminine", they're just THINGS. But Goddess help a man who wants to "go the other way" and have some beauty in his life for himself.

When I wear makeup and tons of glittering jewelry - I'm expressing my "Masculinity". I say it often, and I say it loudly, but I don't think I've said it here yet or recently:

I'm neither attempting to look like a woman, nor to be one, as I am not; yet at the same time I reserve the (Goddess given) RIGHT to define my OWN version of "Masculinity", not someone's preconceived version.

I seek the long forgotten ideal of "masculine" beauty - a concept long forgotten in the world. We have to go back several centuries, darned near half a millineum, to even find the very end of the concept.

This beauty is what draws me to this dance, I want to look and feel beautiful as this dance is beautiful.

Tarik - I apologize if I rubbed you the wrong way. Discussions like this are best done in person where we can make eye contact, wave our arms around, demonstrate a few moves, swirl some veils, and in general coummnicate both faster and better than we can here.

But...

Since this is what we have, let's take it slow and discuss one aspect at a time so we don't have a communications breakdown (read: I don't put my foot in my mouth trying to explain myself!).
 

sedoniaraqs

New member
Zorba, I am curious about your views -- when you say that the differences that matter between males and females that are biological and the rest is just made up.

As a biologist (albeit not in the area of human biology), I am curious to know what aspects of us (people) are non-biological. Be careful if you say environmental influences, because remember that humans create and modify their environments much more than other organisms do. It becomes very difficult to disentangle nature from nurture.

Sedonia
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
Zorba, I am curious about your views -- when you say that the differences that matter between males and females that are biological and the rest is just made up.

As a biologist (albeit not in the area of human biology), I am curious to know what aspects of us (people) are non-biological. Be careful if you say environmental influences, because remember that humans create and modify their environments much more than other organisms do. It becomes very difficult to disentangle nature from nurture.

Sedonia
Yes it is!

Its always hard to generalize - and I've haven't been very good at it lately, which is why I like face to face conversations best...

Ok, women have a different body structure from men. We all know this. That's biology. Then there's the "Brain wiring" thing. Better people than I argue endlessly about that. I feel that it is at least partly biology as well. But I could be wrong.

My point I've been trying to make is the artificiality of cultural norms - at least in the ultimate sense. It would seem that most people equate beauty with so called "Femininity". I disagree. Beauty is a human birthright - for BOTH (all?) genders.

What I wear, what you wear, what virtually everone wears is dictated, to greater or lesser extent, by man made cultural rules.

What we choose as activities in our spare time, or our professions, our interests, are also dictated by man made cultural rules.

Women have made great strides in recent decades towards rewriting or throwing out these rules. Men have done essentially NOTHING.

Hogwash sez I. Throw out as much as you possibly can, I want no boundaries around what I'm expected to do, or act like, or wear, or look like. If I'm not hurting anyone else, leave me the **** alone has always been my mantra.

Does this answer your question, or have I gotten off on a tangent (again!)?
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
and because people do make assumptions about a guys sexuality when they do something that is a female dominated activity, they worry about the misperception and want to compensate for it. All male dancers have to deal with this, no matter what form of dance they do, except maybe hip-hop.
Yet another clarification...

People are free to make whatever assumptions they like about my sexuality. I don't worry about possible misperceptions (if any) - and trying to compensate for it is one of my arguments - we shouldn't. "All male dancers have to deal with this..." - only if they choose to, only if they choose to...

I think what I was trying to say is that we should strive to be Belly Dancers who just happen to be male, NOT as males who just happen to be Belly Dancers...

Ok, so I'm weird!
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Just for the record, I know your not talking about me Zorba, but I do find some of your staements confusing, so I do neede clarification....Now I'll go back and actually read your replies:eek:
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Women have made great strides in recent decades towards rewriting or throwing out these rules. Men have done essentially NOTHING.

You need to move to New York because this is definatly not the case here. Men wear lots of color, even pink, which was unheard of when I was a kid. They braid their hair, wear earrings, they do they get maicures and pedicures and even get their eyebrows done, (I think the eyebrows are over kill 'cause they usually end up looking like scared cats), and these are the thuged out kids. Guys in New York have always been all about looking pretty.

Oh back to topic...urhhmm, yes Amir is a good dancer, whatever you'd call his style.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Yet another clarification...

People are free to make whatever assumptions they like about my sexuality. I don't worry about possible misperceptions (if any) - and trying to compensate for it is one of my arguments - we shouldn't. "All male dancers have to deal with this..." - only if they choose to, only if they choose to...

I think what I was trying to say is that we should strive to be Belly Dancers who just happen to be male, NOT as males who just happen to be Belly Dancers...

Ok, so I'm weird!

Okay, but I still don't know what you mean by trying hard to prove they're masculine. What are these guys doing?
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
Just for the record, I know your not talking about me Zorba, but I do find some of your staements confusing, so I do neede clarification....Now I'll go back and actually read your replies:eek:
Don't count on them making any more sense than the last time since I obviously wasn't being clear. I also have a bad habit of rambling, which confuses things further. I'll try to keep it short, maybe that'll help keep me from muddying the waters...

As for "Stupid Male Tricks" I see (male) dancers doing.

Athleticism. 1001 different butt "shimmies". Angular posture (consistantly). Ripping their shirt off midway through their performance (!). Coming on stage with veil(s) and proceeding to beat the poor thing(s) into submission. Prancing around without doing much dancing. Good technique, but no soul. Granted, some of these are just bad dancing, having nothing to do with male/female - but I see more males doing it and "getting away with it". Or sometimes its just attitude. Its one of those "I know it when I see it" things sometimes.

As for Amir - I'd have to go back to watch his video again, but as I recall he looked pretty good. His costuming isn't my thing (and that's OK), but I do remember liking his dancing. What Chryssanthi Sahar says is utter truth, overanalyzing ruins the experience. "Eyes of a child" and all that. I agree.
 
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Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
It seemed to make sense (this time) to move this discussion to its own thread (With what I hope is a humerous title!).

Good info Tarik, re: males in NY. I know this has been going on for a few years here and there - some call it "metrosexuality". Although I don't think it goes far enough (!), I'm all for it. I just hope it sticks.
 

steffib

New member
I am by no means an expert in this - but I work with an (ATS) troupe that has a male dancer. I have a fairly straight-forward view on the issue, and within our parameters, things seems to be quite simple:

When it comes to our male troupe member as a dancer who is part of the troupe, I consider him a dancer, and I could not care less about gender - what matters is technique and teamwork. It seems only fair to expect him to perform all moves with the same precision as everybody else, some moves may come easier to him, others may not, but that happens to females, as well. He happens to be really smart, so he tends to have a prominent role when an anchor dancer is needed.

When it comes to the more free artistic expression, he is definitely different than I am as a female. At performances, we like to do duets, in part inspired by a great video I have seen of Tarik and Morocco. It is undeniable that we are a male and a female, which gives our performances a special energy and makes it a heck of a lot of fun to go with that flow (both of us are in a long-term relationship not with each other, and I am 10 years older). We don't try to be anything we are not, that is just what we both like to do.

In a recent performance, when he had a solo, he came around and flirted with us girls (we were seated on straw bales around the stage - and at least one of the group is 20 years older than he is!). Again, that was light-hearted, cheerful and somewhat humorous.

That's my personal, very positive experience with male dancing.
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
When it comes to our male troupe member as a dancer who is part of the troupe, I consider him a dancer, and I could not care less about gender - what matters is technique and teamwork. It seems only fair to expect him to perform all moves with the same precision as everybody else, some moves may come easier to him, others may not, but that happens to females, as well.

Thank you. Someone who GETS IT!
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Uh...

Tarik - I think you need to re-interpret what I was saying - OBVIOUSLY I put my foot in my mouth and didn't communicate well enough!

For instance: "Stupid Male Tricks" - I'm not saying YOU do them, I'm saying a lot of (other) male dancers do. Not you, hopefully not me, not DaVid, and not Aziz.

I've always found that you and I either agree 100% or agree 99.5% on just about everything about this dance. I don't think that's changed...

Sometimes I get so *frustrated* with the limitations of the written word on message boards!

It is, and always has been my position that Belly Dance is neither "Masculine" nor "Feminine", just "Human", BUT that
it (currently) resides in a "Feminine" context. A subtle, but important difference and is my interpretation of what you've been saying as well... (?)

Hey Zorba:

I'm sorry if I came across as angry. I do have very srtong convictions, (NO REALLY? Couldn't tell.), and I do have an issue around this issue for reasons that I'll explain. The issue of the effeminatemale dancer is one that comes up over and over again. I guess if there were more of us and things were more even, it wouldn't be an issue for me.

I got into the dance because I love it and wanted everyone to know how wonderful it is and recognize it as a true art. The assumption of "gayness" is often used to dismiss the legitimacy of male dancers, in other words the stereo type is, "This is a woman's dance=a man doing it must be gay=gays aren't real men, they really wanrt to be women". Therefore, whenever I see something that reinforces the stereotype, it makes me bristle.

Believe it or not, I have lost very good jobs because a very effeminate guy dancerd there after I did and just put a bad taste in everyone's mouth regarding male dancers. I was approached to do a venue because the female customers were asking for a guy. Assi form Israel was here at the same time, but wasn't chosen because at that time he only wore gallabeyas and the owner wanted a flashier costume. So I did the job and it went very well. However, the dancer who was booking the gig was always evasive when I asked her when I was coming back. What I found out later was that she had a student who she wanted to do the gig instead. I know this guy quite well and for him, it seems, dancing was all about his sexuality, rather than the culture music, or art.

It wasn't enogh for him to be gay, he had to be Super gay and make sure everyone knew it. He went in ther wearing three contrasting shades of eye shadow, (gay flag, I'm not kidding), a woman's balkan vest, the kind that is cut to fit around the bust so that his big red nipples were showing, laddies earings and a seethrough pair of harem pants. As if this were not bad enough, he had very bad posture and really limp wrists. It made the crowd very uncomfortable and put such a bad taste in the owners mouth, he decided never to hire a male dancer again, regardless of the fact that the crowd and himself had appreciated my show.

This is why I get annoyed and frustrated. If there were more of us and some of us were effeminate and some weren't, then the public might realise that understand that it depends on the individual. I know you don't dress the way you do for the reason I mentioned, but that's because I know you somewhat from your website and posts, but the problem is we rarely get a chance to speak to people. That is why I think image and not behaving in ways that confirm the stereotype is important. I really am concerned with the image of the dance and that we get taken seriously. I don't like the fact that our sisters are taken for bimbos and our brothers are dismissed as sissies, (shades of Billy Elliot).....Does any of this make sense?:confused:
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
I know you don't dress the way you do for the reason I mentioned, but that's because I know you somewhat from your website and posts, but the problem is we rarely get a chance to speak to people. That is why I think image and not behaving in ways that confirm the stereotype is important. I really am concerned with the image of the dance and that we get taken seriously. I don't like the fact that our sisters are taken for bimbos and our brothers are dismissed as sissies, (shades of Billy Elliot).....Does any of this make sense?:confused:
Yes it does...

Hey - we're GUYS, of COURSE we have strong feelings/opinions on things we're passionate about. The gals are probably looking at this conversation and going "Yep, typical guys!". HA!

You have strong feelings about (so called) effeminacy. I have strong feelings about constraining "masculinity" - I don't like artificial boundaries, and that's what I feel they are, is artificial. But you knew that...

Here's the thing that just "blows me away". Ok, I make no attempt to be so called "Masculine" - conversely, I make no attempt to be so called "Feminine" - I only attempt to be myself. The "Masculine beauty" thing. I don't do drag - or at least what *I* would call drag - my costumes are "masculine" (at least to my mind), no fake boobs (biology), etc. I've worn earrings, usually large dangles, in both ears in my mundane life for a number of years now. I'm loaded with pretty jewelry for performances. I use Kohl, eyeshadow and foundation (but no lipstick, can't stand the feel of the stuff). Blah, blah, blah. All this has cultural precedence for men - as you probably know - not that it would make much difference to me...

BUT...

Virtually "Everyone" says my overall presentation, costuming and dance - is "Masculine"! The women love my "exotic, painted" persona. People of both genders love my dancing (as much as you'd expect for a male dancer, anyways) - not that I'm any great shakes (I'm not). This is in spite of my breaking "the rules". As you know, I have no use for rulebooks.

My personal belief is that this is so because I'm *REAL* - I present not "Masculine", not "Feminine", but as *ME*. Since my demeanor comes across as "Masculine", people perceive me as such - even when doing floaty veilwork - maybe even especially when I do floaty veilwork.

Tarik - I'm an "armchair philosopher" and "armchair psychologist" - which means I don't know a darn thing about either, yet I'm fascinated by such things and am always learning more as I try to figure out just WHAT makes people tick. Gender expectations is probably the most dangerous place to tinker with and/or study - and here I am in the middle of it! Loving every minute too...

I'm rambling again - but go to my site, take a look at the menu option "Zorba in motion", and play the QuickTime (7) videos you'll find there and you tell me if I'm "masculine" or not. Its only one example of several that I do, but its at least available. "Masculine" or "feminine", I won't be offended either way, but my dance sisters sure liked my veil routine (even though I thought it was rough, even for ME).

As for the sexuality thing - I don't know (and don't care) what most people think. Yes, I've had some express surprise when they find out I'm married (23 years!) - I suppose that means they thought I was gay. Whatever...
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
One further though - I never can just shut up about it already! :D

I probably send out so many conflicting signals that a lot of people either don't know WHAT to think (an uncomfortable spot to be in for most people) about my gender/sexuality, etc - and/or they just default to what they see which is undeniably male. And that's just in "Real Life"!

"Keep 'em Guessing" is my motto - "Never be predictable".

I might get entirely different reactions if I didn't have facial hair - that de-"feminizes" darn near anything.

I know you (Tarik) disagree with me here - but to my mind the ultimate frontier for either gender is androgyny - something I can't pull off! If I can't figure out what gender a performer is (regardless of artform chosen), I'm just fascinated and think that's the coolest thing! The other social preoccupation - sexuality - I seldom think about it as I don't care what another person's sexuality is - I'm old fashioned in that regard - its their business, not mine!
 

Aniseteph

New member
I know you (Tarik) disagree with me here - but to my mind the ultimate frontier for either gender is androgyny - something I can't pull off! If I can't figure out what gender a performer is (regardless of artform chosen), I'm just fascinated and think that's the coolest thing!

I'm with Tarik on this one. I find it really distracting not to know. For me as an audience member it's totally the wrong way to go if a dancer is trying to convey messages "beyond" the male/female thing. Does that make sense? When someone goes for truly androgynous I'm wondering a) is that a man or a woman (draws the attention like an impending costume disaster), and b) why does he/she dress that way? To make me go :confused: , to make some sort of point about his/her sexuality (that I'm not interested in)? I don't know... What it absolutely doesn't succeed in doing (for me) is to write the male/female out of the equation and let the art be experienced as just human. On the contrary, it just accentuates it, like the elephant in the room that no one mentions.

I've seen men dancing very masculine and very feminine styles, and like both, as long as it's good dancing. Conveying a feeling is what it's all about IMHO and neither men nor women have a monopoly on particular feelings. Having said that, some audiences are going to have problems with the feelings some dancers want to convey... I'd have thought it was part of a professional's job to gauge the audience/venue and choose something appropriate.
 

Tarik Sultan

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Anisetepth makes a great point. Not that I don't understand where your coming from Zorba, I do and just for the record, I've seen your clips and I don't find you effeminate, even though I would never choose to wear some of your accessories.

I do wear a minimal amount of makeup to hide my shaving scars, eyebrow liner to define my mustach and beard and liner to define my eyes. I use cosmetics to define my male features, not make a gender statement. To me that's another battle. For you this is an issue that's central to your life, on and off stage, for others, I feel they do it to broadcast their sexual preference. I feel that if a guy is effeminate, that's just who he is an you can see it. Dressing up is like putting hot sauce on chilli peppers, not neccessary.
I think they should strive to be known as a great artist, not that gay guy that belly dances.

On the issue of evening the gender playing field, there is another reason why I prefeer to see a guy present a masquline and that is because I think its high time that the entertainment industry as a whole acknowledge women. I mean think about it, everything is geared to what men find asthetically pleasing. Look at all the music videos, magazine adds. Even our dance was designed with a guys idea of the ideal woman in mind. I don't think there's anything wrong with appreciating feminine beauty, but it why can't women go to a show and see beautiful guys dancing for their viewing pleasure, who really know how to dance and are not strippers? Guys have been able to appreciate women's beauty in an artistic context, why should women be able to enjoy the same privilidge, (sp?)?
 
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