Gender Discrimination, what do you think ?

Zorba said:

Yea, don't get me started on dress codes and stupid male clothing...

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Zorba, honey, you have my sincere and whole-hearted sympathy in your stand against dress codes and stupid male clothing.

Upon retirement, I consigned my entire female legal assistant disguise to the second shops: the high-heeled modern version of footbinding, the dignified strait jackets and conservative dresses required for trial and other legal occasions. I refused to stoop to panyhose under any form of duress and substituted opaque tights when required to exhibit my legs above those damned infernal heels.

At least no one looks at me amiss in the real world if I stick to jeans, clogs, and cordoroy shirts now.

I remember years ago there was someone on Bhuz who complained he wasn't allowed in belly dance classes because he was a guy. Wherever he tried to get into classes he was denied as those classes were all 'females only'.

I don't know how something like that can even be allowed nowadays. But it seems that women get away with female only clubs/events/etc.

I think there is a lot to catch up for men, it's as if things have been changing for women, but the men have been left out. Zorba's statement about clothes for example is so true!

But there are other things as well, it's still not considered ok for a man to show emotions. Or lots worse, where male rape victims don't dare to report. I could make a whole list here, but I think many things have already been mentioned.

I remember years ago there was someone on Bhuz who complained he wasn't allowed in belly dance classes because he was a guy. Wherever he tried to get into classes he was denied as those classes were all 'females only'.


Alas I have experienced that myself when I first started, of the known classes in my area, no can do, the class being female didn't want a male present was the usual excuse, in other cases the class tutors never even bothered to reply to my persistent communication. But the biggest outrage was when I approached the Arts council and they unable to help even when I mentioned the sex discrimination act, which they tritely told me does not apply to leisure activities. Yet many male dominated activities when a female wishes to join in bend over backwards to welcome, as they believe the sex discrimination act could be cited against them. How uneducated we actually are, what passes for laws in my country are very misunderstood indicating we are far from a fair country.

Now all my life I have supported equal opportunities for all no matter what a persons gender, race of ability is, they want to give something a go, I will support them and fend off the naysayers, but as I was supporting many women's right issues, I actually found those that I supported discriminated against males, via myself in my desire to learn belly dance, it sure made me think about my values, but it occurred maybe those that have their private clubs were no male usually dares to venture don't know how hard males are being denied, for as society moves forward and more and more opportunities open up for the once oppressed, the ones that were once allowed to do stuff have been forgotten about.

And then we have security guards where classes are held, only one place I never had to explain myself was the college I attended where the security personnel were people whom I knew when my dance class was held there. One particular incident, the police were nearly involved because the job's worth security guard did not believe I was a male belly dancer and tried to stop me attending my class.

Males in society do come in for a bad rap, the minority make that so which ruins it for everyone else, because common thought is where there are females there are always predatory males trying to weedle their way in.

The trouble is now, I am aware of my position in this deceptively unfair society, so a class where I wish to attend, i do not just turn up as many do responding to posted advertisements, but I write to the tutor or organiser and ask if I am allowed to attend, this goes for dance festivals as well, even the festival where I met Tarik Sultan.

Amulya said:

I remember years ago there was someone on Bhuz who complained he wasn't allowed in belly dance classes because he was a guy.

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That would have been Mike Waldie - also in England.

This seems to be a real problem in GB - not so much here in the states. I don't grok...

Now I know you lot in the US have some pretty narrow minded dare I say backward characters in your country and that observed via what media comes out, but on the whole, I commend the US on being an improvement on what my country is, for you on the whole appear to be somewhat more free in your choices than what we are here. Sure we say we are free, but certain experiences say different, which indicates to me that the UK is in fact a false country built upon barely effective laws and supposition. The older I get, the more disgusted I get with my own country and especially so the more research I do into it's history.

I have no idea how much of a problem it is in the UK now. I imagine it is extremely variable depending on how local classes have evolved. IMO in a proper dance class nobody much cares. It's a dance class, who cares who else is in the class if everyone is focused on learning the dance?

OTOH in a touchy feely get in contact with your inner goddess therapy bonding session, or what is more of a sparkly social club, or a class that has a teacher or a strong personality with political ideas about what belly dance is (not for the likes of Khaled, Ozgen and Shafeek then? ), they could make it very difficult and play the by women for women we-need-our-space card. I wouldn't be surprised if lots of organisations buy that quite happily.

But I don't see how groups who reject male students out of hand can claim to be about teaching/learning the dance anymore, in the face of so many role models nowadays. Maybe they never heard of Tito or think he's irrelevant?

khanjar said:

Now I know you lot in the US have some pretty narrow minded dare I say backward characters in your country and that observed via what media comes out, but on the whole, I commend the US on being an improvement on what my country is, for you on the whole appear to be somewhat more free in your choices than what we are here.

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I wonder if the belly dance side of the problems is rooted in the strong early influence of separtist feminist spirituality in the dance in the UK - I'm thinking Wendy B and Suraya. (True there seemed to be a similar strong movement of "by women, for women" in the western states - but there were also other strong influences)

Here I often get an odd look when I say I accept men in class - or that some of my major teachers were men - but it is usually accepted. The only problem I know of here was with some devout Muslim women who would not come to class if men were around. But I think if it went to court the teacher would have had to have a mixed class (I'm pretty sure there isn't a "leisure activity" out in our legislation)

ETA That said, I remember when Barrymore visited NZ after some fuss in the UK about his sexuality and he commented how in NZ a couple of out lesbian sisters had been one of the favourites of the older conservative set for over a decade and it could never have happened in the UK. So maybe it is wider than that.

I manage a women's health service and still see gender inequities, lower pay rates, being a big one but i often reflect that white men under the age of 50 are the most discriminated against population in Australia. The group that is supposed to be most dominant yet there is no support available to them. On the topic of men in dance, in most styles I find teachers bend over backwards to have boys and men in their classes and they are fawned over and get away with things females never would because they r male and there are so few males Dancing so when a school gets one they grab him and don't want to lose him BUT belly dance seems to be the exception to that rule. Society expects women belly dancers not men. Could it b that the female instructors who have turned down males students have done so because they don't know how
men should dance and so the don't know how to teach them? I have been to workshops with 2 male teachers, 1 of whom was great and 1 of whom was a lazy so and so who got by being ill prepared because he was gorgeous but when I had a young man attend one of my workshops I was upset with the organizers because I didn't know in advance, I was unexperienced in male dance so didn't know how to alter my content to best meet his needs and I would have appreciated advance notice so I could have researched etc.

khanjar said:

Now I know you lot in the US have some pretty narrow minded dare I say backward characters in your country and that observed via what media comes out

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Well, first off I wouldn't use the media as an accurate view of US views. The news media for the most part spins extreme left and often does their best to make anything to the right look bad even if it's an extremely inaccurate portrayal. It's so bad some of them have actually realized they're completely out of touch and are creating "liaison" positions so they can hire someone to explain the motives behind things to their reporters since they just don't get it. The movie/TV industry for the most part panders to a group that is probably less then 20% of the population. On top of that the US is very large and we have a great many regions. While there is an "American" culture there is also an awful lot of subcultures.

That said the discrimination I have seen in the US occurs on the fringe of both sides. On one extreme is men expected to be grunting, belching, manly (cave) men and on the other they must be "sophisticated", metropolitan, unaggressive, feminists or they're not "real men". The reality is that most men fall somewhere in the middle but unfortunately the media seems to only recognize the two extremes and either treats men like they are "stupid" neanderthals or "civilized" metro-sexuals. It's gotten so bad that most of the men I know no longer watch most cable/TV shows because they're tired of the insults and stereotyping.

Also most of the men I know have absolutely no problem with the idea of a male bellydancer. They may think it's odd and it doesn't mean their interested but hey, whatever floats their boat. That's individually of course. Society in general is unfortunately rarely individual but rather the perception of whoever and whatever group is the loudest. Right now the loudest is usually those represented by the media... and since public perception also tends to shape public policy...



Personally I get annoyed at both the people (often men) who seem to think that my husband is a "pansy" because he actually cares about my opinion and the ones who think he is "uncultured" because he couldn't care less about name brand suits etc. Fortunately in reality they are a minority (albeit a loud one) but seriously people, get over yourselves.


PS. My husband has been called a liar by more then one feminist man when he told them that not only doesn't he have a problem working for women he prefers female bosses, which he does. Evidently in their world view every man in existence is by nature prejudiced against women so he must be deluded or lying. Please, like I would have married him if that was true.

Emmab81 said:

when I had a young man attend one of my workshops I was upset with the organizers because I didn't know in advance, I was unexperienced in male dance so didn't know how to alter my content to best meet his needs and I would have appreciated advance notice so I could have researched etc.

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Unless you were teaching something like haggala there isn't much you need to change. In Egypt (for example) men have the same movement vocab in social situations as women. Professional dancers have more restrictions though. So if you are teaching dance - you teach dance. (If you are in Western Australia you may have seen Gintaurus way back when - don't tell him he can only do X or Y!)

Kashmir said:

(If you are in Western Australia you may have seen Gintaurus way back when - don't tell him he can only do X or Y!)

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Do you mean Belyssa's son?

I've never met him but I have heard spectacular things about him from some dancers who've taken his workshops.

I believe this discussion about how to teach males belly dance has been aired on these forums before, where it was generally decided, one teaches males just like one teaches females for the movement is the movement, it is what it is.

But how the movement differs between male and female is purely down to each gender's physiology and in some ways their personality and as a result may come across as though it is different when reality it's not.

But as to differences the minority gender aside, what about people of different sizes, people of different sizes and ages interpret the movement differently, their body says what goes and what doesn't, so how can movement tuition for the male gender be any different ?

Or is it nothing to do with movement tuition at all ?

Near three years I have been taking classes now and the way I have been taught, is the same way as the rest of the class, but even though we have been taught the same, my dance is different and that because my physiology is different, I tend to dance with muscles, my upper body work being the strongest, as is typical of male in anything, because that is the way we are, even un-muscled weeds like me. The ladies dance with joints and excel in lower body work, because that is the way it is, it is the way we have been designed to fulfil our primitive roles.

So because our physiology says we are different, did anyone ever consider males and females complement each other and has anyone ever seen a male and female belly dancer dancing a duo, I will tell you, it is awesome, just so complete, where a lone dancer can look kind of well, alone.

( The duo I saw was Tarik and Morocco when they visited the UK, their performance was just simply moving, it was as if all the puzzle pieces just slotted into place )

Perhaps before all this gender superiority crap came into being, the ancient dances that have come down to us through the ages, perhaps in our singular roles as individual dancers, we are just not getting it right and nor will we until we do get it right.

But tips for teachers from a student who happens to be male ;

If you think a male is there for impure reasons, site them at the front of the class and treat them as anyone else. Curiously my teacher refers to all of us as 'guys' as in ''right guys, we'll do this....''.( Curious do you not think how terms of address have somehow become unisex, yet the people that actually belong to that term of address come in for such a hard time ?)

Now before I got involved, I read all the reasons why classes didn't want to include males, so when I did get a class, I acted by placing myself at the front of the class using the excuse I have poor hearing, that way the only ogling of wiggling asses is going to be the ladies behind me, so, I am no threat to anyone. But as a male I am glad I was at the front of the class, as I was there to learn dance not be distracted, even though I have the ability to turn the primitive me off when it is not wanted, most males, in fact all have that ability too, but some, well, some are poorly educated in manners.

But another perspective from another label one doesn't often hear much about, an article from the blog site Tumbler on some of the very issues being discussed here ( and sure seems to have got his undergarments in a twist about it) ;



Transvestite • Just Smith.

Kashmir said:

Unless you were teaching something like haggala there isn't much you need to change. In Egypt (for example) men have the same movement vocab in social situations as women. Professional dancers have more restrictions though. So if you are teaching dance - you teach dance. (If you are in Western Australia you may have seen Gintaurus way back when - don't tell him he can only do X or Y!)

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Thanks Kashmir - as I was on the spot, that is exactly what I did! This was the workshop I prepared, this was the workshop I presented but at the time I felt uncomfortable because I felt that I hadn't researched it properly and wasn't prepared. As soon as I got home I immediately started researching and was very relieved to find that I hadn't done the male student a dis-service and that he had got his money worth for the workshop as well as the female participants.

Ariadne said:

Well, first off I wouldn't use the media as an accurate view of US views. The news media for the most part spins extreme left and often does their best to make anything to the right look bad even if it's an extremely inaccurate portrayal. It's so bad some of them have actually realized they're completely out of touch and are creating "liaison" positions so they can hire someone to explain the motives behind things to their reporters since they just don't get it. The movie/TV industry for the most part panders to a group that is probably less then 20% of the population. On top of that the US is very large and we have a great many regions. While there is an "American" culture there is also an awful lot of subcultures.

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Very true! I'll add that (IMNSHO) the media certainly is very leftist, and politically we're caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Socialism or Theocracy are what our choices boil down to. I don't want either - but I'm faced with communists/socialists on one side, and preachers/Bible thumpers on the other!

That said the discrimination I have seen in the US occurs on the fringe of both sides. On one extreme is men expected to be grunting, belching, manly (cave) men and on the other they must be "sophisticated", metropolitan, unaggressive, feminists or they're not "real men". The reality is that most men fall somewhere in the middle but unfortunately the media seems to only recognize the two extremes and either treats men like they are "stupid" neanderthals or "civilized" metro-sexuals. It's gotten so bad that most of the men I know no longer watch most cable/TV shows because they're tired of the insults and stereotyping.

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Very true. Commercials really are this way. Although I've given up on TV years ago because its an insipid waste of time.

As for me, I'm way beyond "metro-sexual" I guess...

Also most of the men I know have absolutely no problem with the idea of a male bellydancer. They may think it's odd and it doesn't mean their interested but hey, whatever floats their boat. That's individually of course. Society in general is unfortunately rarely individual but rather the perception of whoever and whatever group is the loudest. Right now the loudest is usually those represented by the media... and since public perception also tends to shape public policy...

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Otherwise known as the miasma of "Political Correctness".

Personally I get annoyed at both the people (often men) who seem to think that my husband is a "pansy" because he actually cares about my opinion and the ones who think he is "uncultured" because he couldn't care less about name brand suits etc. Fortunately in reality they are a minority (albeit a loud one) but seriously people, get over yourselves.

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I've been saying it for years: The biggest obstacle to "Men's Liberation" isn't women - is other MEN!

As for suits - NEVER again! I consider the suit and the necktie to be the mark of the male slave and the symbol of male oppression (again, mostly by other MEN).

PS. My husband has been called a liar by more then one feminist man when he told them that not only doesn't he have a problem working for women he prefers female bosses, which he does. Evidently in their world view every man in existence is by nature prejudiced against women so he must be deluded or lying. Please, like I would have married him if that was true.

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Its been my observation that many women just "don't have a sense of humor" as the saying goes when it comes to men working for them. Much like the oft quoted (and true enough) "Good ol' boy's club", many times men working for women aren't part of the "Good ol' girls club" and can't "get away" with anything - but the girls can! My wife, who was in the fast track "power career" for many years, confirms this.

With that said, although I've never worked for a woman, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I prefer women Doctors, and other "personal professionals" as well. In fact my Tattoo artist, my dentist, my hair stylist, my nail tech, and my esthetician are all women. Granted, the latter 3 are traditionally so - but I wouldn't have it any other way. The dentist was "the luck of the draw" (she's fantastic), and I only trust a woman's esthetics when it comes to artwork that's going to be permanent on my body! My current doc is a guy - and he's terrific (he pierced my ears back in the day)!

As for teaching males - for those who haven't seen it, here's my article on the subject:

Male Student, Now What?

As always, suggestions on improvements to this - or any of my - article(s) are VERY welcome!

Darshiva said:

Do you mean Belyssa's son?

I've never met him but I have heard spectacular things about him from some dancers who've taken his workshops.

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Yes. I used to meet him at the Winter Warmup in Brisbane - I always looked forward to the years he performed in the show.

Zorba said:

Its been my observation that many women just "don't have a sense of humor" as the saying goes when it comes to men working for them. Much like the oft quoted (and true enough) "Good ol' boy's club", many times men working for women aren't part of the "Good ol' girls club" and can't "get away" with anything - but the girls can! My wife, who was in the fast track "power career" for many years, confirms this.

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Interesting. I had my husband read this and he says he has never seen it. According to him there has never been a problem with his female bosses having a "sense of humor" where any of the employee's were concerned nor was there ever any question who the boss was. I suspect that it's an individual thing rather then gender just like the "good ol' boys", some are and some aren't. I also wonder if there is a difference in "etiquette" for comfortable working relations and since my husband has mostly worked for women he just has the right "language" so he hasn't had the problems.

khanjar said:

my dance is different and that because my physiology is different, I tend to dance with muscles, my upper body work being the strongest, as is typical of male in anything, because that is the way we are, even un-muscled weeds like me. The ladies dance with joints and excel in lower body work, because that is the way it is, it is the way we have been designed to fulfil our primitive roles.

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Off topic I know, but everyone dances with their muscles. Muscles make the bones move. The usual difference is those who use their leg muscles to generate hip movement versus those who use their abdominal muscles. What you seem to be saying is you do less hip work and more upperbody work. Embrace the dark side - move those hips

Ariadne said:

Interesting. I had my husband read this and he says he has never seen it. According to him there has never been a problem with his female bosses having a "sense of humor" where any of the employee's were concerned nor was there ever any question who the boss was. I suspect that it's an individual thing rather then gender just like the "good ol' boys", some are and some aren't. I also wonder if there is a difference in "etiquette" for comfortable working relations and since my husband has mostly worked for women he just has the right "language" so he hasn't had the problems.

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That may well be. I'd assume that me myself would be fine with a woman boss as I "run with" mostly women anyway, and communicate with them far better than most guys - I had to re-learn communications when I entered "this woman's world" of Belly Dance. Gals communicate way different from guys - I won't say that I'm an expert at woman communications, but I'm far better than most guys.

After 28+ years marriage - my wife can STILL surprise me in the communications dept!

OTOH, I've seen situations - as has my wife - where a male employee of a female boss had WAY less leeway than a woman employee. That may very well be more a communications issue than anything else. *shrug*