Copying other dancers choreographies from videos
- Thread starter Kiraze
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Mariesaffron
New member
copying other dancers........etc,
Mariesaffron here, strongly defending Didem, I admire Amar Gamal, being spanish myself, and her work with wings and her shimmys are to die for. I too agree with all that has been said about imitating others, however, I am sure Didem need not to imitate nobody, she is very talented and capable of doing things that Amar Gamal will be happy to learn from her. Amar Gamal is not the only Dancer in the world that dance with wings, and as shown in the video Didem do not master the wings yet, but she is dam good without wings, veils, zills, swords, canes, fans, trays etc, and screw Ibo and his show, he is taking avantage of Didem, she is too good for that tacky show. I better stop here. Marie
Mariesaffron here, strongly defending Didem, I admire Amar Gamal, being spanish myself, and her work with wings and her shimmys are to die for. I too agree with all that has been said about imitating others, however, I am sure Didem need not to imitate nobody, she is very talented and capable of doing things that Amar Gamal will be happy to learn from her. Amar Gamal is not the only Dancer in the world that dance with wings, and as shown in the video Didem do not master the wings yet, but she is dam good without wings, veils, zills, swords, canes, fans, trays etc, and screw Ibo and his show, he is taking avantage of Didem, she is too good for that tacky show. I better stop here. Marie
da Sage
New member
Well, I guess it is a good thing that right now I am only aspiring to be a hobbyist dancer...not an artist or a professional. One step at a time...
I do love picking the brains of all the professionals, teachers, and artists here. It's one of the things that got me started lurking on this board, a little over two years ago. Most other boards have far more rank beginners and students.
I do love picking the brains of all the professionals, teachers, and artists here. It's one of the things that got me started lurking on this board, a little over two years ago. Most other boards have far more rank beginners and students.
Aniseteph
New member
I'm not an artist or a professional either 
. But personally I don't want to lift choreographies off DVD to perform, or even use recognisable chunks of ones we've learnt in class, or from workshops. People would know and I'd feel :redface:.
So I'm doing my own thing. It's hard to find moves that fit right, it takes a long time and keeps evolving, but it is an interesting exercise. I make it easier on myself by not using music that I'm familiar with anyone else dancing to, so there is no temptation to "borrow". Of course I use moves I've learned in class and workshops - where else would I get them, and isn't that what you learn them for? - but not whole sequences. They wouldn't fit the music anyway.
As for whether Didem is copying Amar Gamal - I don't know, but pick the same music and props and a very similar costume as a well known dancer and surely you are inviting comparisons, if not accusations of plagiarism. Or maybe it is just "hommage"...
. But personally I don't want to lift choreographies off DVD to perform, or even use recognisable chunks of ones we've learnt in class, or from workshops. People would know and I'd feel :redface:.So I'm doing my own thing. It's hard to find moves that fit right, it takes a long time and keeps evolving, but it is an interesting exercise. I make it easier on myself by not using music that I'm familiar with anyone else dancing to, so there is no temptation to "borrow". Of course I use moves I've learned in class and workshops - where else would I get them, and isn't that what you learn them for? - but not whole sequences. They wouldn't fit the music anyway.
As for whether Didem is copying Amar Gamal - I don't know, but pick the same music and props and a very similar costume as a well known dancer and surely you are inviting comparisons, if not accusations of plagiarism. Or maybe it is just "hommage"...
Kiraze
New member
Devdas is one of the most famous Bollywood movies featuring Madhuri Dixit (main dancer on that clip), Aishwarya Rai and Shahrukh Khan (the guy on the clip). It is also my personal favourite Bollywood movie with fantastic dances and music and to-die-for costumes... and that heartbreaking story of course too...
Exactly, and that is one reason why I am so pissed by her copying others as she has wonderful style of her own and these copied performances are so much worse than her other dances and obviously they also bring down her credibility. I am passionate about Turkish dancing and that´s why I really hate when some Turkish dancer with loads of capability to really become international dance star does something like this
Ibo show is not tacky - Ibo is, but to be honest Didem would be just any unknown dancer trying to struggle with minimum payment if there was not Ibo. The harsh truth is that Ibo does not need Didem as he could always find new talented dancers but Didem desparately needs him - most people watch Ibo show because of music and not because of Didem: her dancing is nice extra five minutes of the show but GP will forget Didem very quickly if she leaves the show similar way as they forgot Asena who now has to struggle for any opportunity to keep her on the headlines :doh:
Maria_Aya
New member
Hi there
Havent checked the video's bur read all the replies.
Lydia gives us the heart of the artist !!!
And I thank her for this, her way of explaining how someone can make a choreo that comes from the soul.
And this is not something that we can find within compinations-video's-etc
Maria Aya
Havent checked the video's bur read all the replies.
Lydia gives us the heart of the artist !!!
And I thank her for this, her way of explaining how someone can make a choreo that comes from the soul.
And this is not something that we can find within compinations-video's-etc
Maria Aya
Persephone
New member
It's funny, for me it depends on the style. When I dance Egyptian style it's rare for me to use "combinations," except for some very basic combinations dating back to old movies -- things like "shimmyshimmyshimmyBUMP" or "spin right, accent, spin left, accent."
But when I'm doing Tribal, it's pretty much based on combinations, and while I agree that it's a good idea to work on them and figure out your own "version," everybody has to learn from somebody. I think it depends on how long the combo is -- if it's like one that my teacher showed us, basically "chest circle, down undulation, ummi, up undulation" that's not really long enough to complain about, but if it's like 30 seconds or more, especially to the same music, I think it's kind of cheesy.
Kind of like if another writer used the same three- or four-word phrase as me, I wouldn't care, but if they used a paragraph, that would be a problem.
But when I'm doing Tribal, it's pretty much based on combinations, and while I agree that it's a good idea to work on them and figure out your own "version," everybody has to learn from somebody. I think it depends on how long the combo is -- if it's like one that my teacher showed us, basically "chest circle, down undulation, ummi, up undulation" that's not really long enough to complain about, but if it's like 30 seconds or more, especially to the same music, I think it's kind of cheesy.
Kind of like if another writer used the same three- or four-word phrase as me, I wouldn't care, but if they used a paragraph, that would be a problem.
Aisha Azar
New member
Copies, etc.
Dear Group,
One of the things common in the Middle Eastern culture is to copy old ideas. It is not meant as insulting, but instead is considered a form of building on something that has been done wonderfully. That is why we hear one million versions of Zayil Howa and Tamra Henna. Brand new music could be created as easily, but it is considered very creative to do the same song over and over again with just subtle differences here and there. I know that it is common among dancers, too, so that we see Randa looking occasionally a lot like Dina, for example. This is not considered to be stealing or impersonating. I am wondering if this is a cultural aspect of the dance that is not appreciated the same way in western dance communities...??? I just thought we might try to look at this situation from a different angle. I, personally am so not interested in doing other people's choreographies, being pretty much an improvisational belly dancer, but if I try to look at it from a cultural point of view, I have to step out of my own shoes for a minute.
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Group,
One of the things common in the Middle Eastern culture is to copy old ideas. It is not meant as insulting, but instead is considered a form of building on something that has been done wonderfully. That is why we hear one million versions of Zayil Howa and Tamra Henna. Brand new music could be created as easily, but it is considered very creative to do the same song over and over again with just subtle differences here and there. I know that it is common among dancers, too, so that we see Randa looking occasionally a lot like Dina, for example. This is not considered to be stealing or impersonating. I am wondering if this is a cultural aspect of the dance that is not appreciated the same way in western dance communities...??? I just thought we might try to look at this situation from a different angle. I, personally am so not interested in doing other people's choreographies, being pretty much an improvisational belly dancer, but if I try to look at it from a cultural point of view, I have to step out of my own shoes for a minute.
Regards,
A'isha
Persephone
New member
But if you look at, say, the "Oum Khalthoum" thread, it seems like there are a lot of dancers interpreting the same songs, but putting their own feelings and styles into them. They definitely have trends that they follow, but they are not just copying each other.
It seems like there are a lot of new/student dancers in the West who think they're really good because they can "perfectly execute" a Jillina choreography, and to me that seems like the antithesis of how Middle Eastern dancers work -- they don't do a whole lot of really complicated moves one after the other, let alone see that ability as what defines a dancer's skill. To me it always seems like the emotional expression and personal taste are most highly valued, and you can't copy that.
Ranya
New member
I totally agree with A'isha and I totally agree with Persephone...Inspiration by other master dancers or styles is indeed a huge aspect of ME dance, however I think that what Didem did is just blind copying: same music, same concept, identical moves...I really think she is a talented dancer, she has wonderful technique and one can see she works on her movements a lot, her shimmies are great, her stomach is flat but OMG how she controls those muscles!!! however sometimes (a lot of times) it lacks that something, the interpretation is somewhat soulless. But I understand that people go crazy about her, she can be dazzling!
Persephone
New member
I feel the same way -- she's a great dancer and I would love to have a body like that, but she always has this look on her face like she's taking an exam.
Then again, she seems much younger than most of my favorite dancers. The soulful part probably comes with experience.
-Roksana-
New member
I remember some heated discussion about some Russian dancers dancing exactly the same choreography than some American dancer did... Now it seems that Turkish superstar Didem is doing the same without any hesitation and for sure without giving any credits to the original dancers or choreographers.
Worst example was her dancing a pathetic copy of Amar Gamal´s Wings of Isis at New Year show and previously she has already copied dances from e.g. Jillina, Rachel Brice, Tamalyn Dallal (she seems to have Bellydance Superstars video
Ok copying can be thought to be a form of flattery but at least I am pissed that many idiots at e.g. YouTube praise Didem´s originality and nice moves when in fact they have been done before and usually even better. My appreciation for Didem is now close to zero because of this but should we jsut accept that because she is from Turkey and she is a superstar?
Here are some copycat examples:
In my opinion at Didem and Omar Gamal in this dance coincides only music
Suhad
New member
For me, because of the order in which I took my classes (started with tribal, moved to a more tribal fusion type instructor, then to an American Cabaret style instructor) my education regarding the 'flavor' of the moves and the context of them within the dance has been stunted, for lack of a better term. I find using choreographies that other dancers have created a good way for me to understand those things like flavor and context, even if I never do use them in performance. For me, at least, KNOWING a choreograhy from the inside out is the best way for me to allow my personality and interpretation to come through, because I can focus on how the song and moves make me feel and convey that, rather than focus on 'oh my god what do I do next??' If that makes me not such a great dancer then I can accept that.
Also, Suhaila said something in a workshop I took from her several years ago that I have thought of often since this thread came up: "Just because you're a good dancer doesn't necessarily mean you're a good choreographer! Many of the greats have choreographers, and no one would expect a ballet dancer to choreograph her own ballets; why is a belly dancer expected to?" She said that Bobby Farrah had once said to her that a dancer must learn many choreographies before she is able to understand the music and interpret it herself.
Let's face it, even if you are not choreographing a dance strictly speaking, you are drawing on years of experience with rhythms, moods, changes, etc. and probably know the music very very well that you are improvising to. It's mostl likely not, strictly speaking, an improvisation, nor is it completely original simply because it must take into account the influences on you yourself.
Now, regarding the Didem/Amar Gamal similarities, I do see quite clearly that Didem has borrowed from Amar's performance on the BDSS video. that being said however, I can also see that a dancer who must have inspirational material for each and every performance, week after week, might suffer from 'dancer's block' and look to other respected dancers/videos for inspiration and maybe take a move or two. I don't think she copied it exactly, and even if she did, with the large differences in culture and understanding, I don't think it would look exactly the same even if she had. Wings are particularly limiting I think because there are only so many things you can do with them; that song limits what you can do, and where, even more.
OK, I'm done rambling.
Also, Suhaila said something in a workshop I took from her several years ago that I have thought of often since this thread came up: "Just because you're a good dancer doesn't necessarily mean you're a good choreographer! Many of the greats have choreographers, and no one would expect a ballet dancer to choreograph her own ballets; why is a belly dancer expected to?" She said that Bobby Farrah had once said to her that a dancer must learn many choreographies before she is able to understand the music and interpret it herself.
Let's face it, even if you are not choreographing a dance strictly speaking, you are drawing on years of experience with rhythms, moods, changes, etc. and probably know the music very very well that you are improvising to. It's mostl likely not, strictly speaking, an improvisation, nor is it completely original simply because it must take into account the influences on you yourself.
Now, regarding the Didem/Amar Gamal similarities, I do see quite clearly that Didem has borrowed from Amar's performance on the BDSS video. that being said however, I can also see that a dancer who must have inspirational material for each and every performance, week after week, might suffer from 'dancer's block' and look to other respected dancers/videos for inspiration and maybe take a move or two. I don't think she copied it exactly, and even if she did, with the large differences in culture and understanding, I don't think it would look exactly the same even if she had. Wings are particularly limiting I think because there are only so many things you can do with them; that song limits what you can do, and where, even more.
OK, I'm done rambling.
Aisha Azar
New member
Choreography, etc.
Dear Group,
I am definately not denying that there are people who do copy others' choroegraphies. However, we are dealing with a total of 10 fundamental movement families when we are talking authentic belly dance. Among those movements, though there may be hundreds of variations and layer combinations, they also must be tied to the physical and emotional interpretation of the music. So, it is entirely possible that people may have very similar interpretations if they see music in the same ways.
For example, a few years ago I made a fundamentals DVD for Egyptian belly dance. I negotiated with Leyla Lanty, we came to an agreement and I used her wonderful music for my DVD (Golden Days Enchanting Nights). When she got her copy of the DVD, she got back to me immediately and told me how amazed she was that our interpretations were so incredibly similar, though we had never even seen each other dance!! My thinking is that we have a similar understanding of the way that Egyptian music is put together and how to interpret it. I think this may happen fairly often.
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Group,
I am definately not denying that there are people who do copy others' choroegraphies. However, we are dealing with a total of 10 fundamental movement families when we are talking authentic belly dance. Among those movements, though there may be hundreds of variations and layer combinations, they also must be tied to the physical and emotional interpretation of the music. So, it is entirely possible that people may have very similar interpretations if they see music in the same ways.
For example, a few years ago I made a fundamentals DVD for Egyptian belly dance. I negotiated with Leyla Lanty, we came to an agreement and I used her wonderful music for my DVD (Golden Days Enchanting Nights). When she got her copy of the DVD, she got back to me immediately and told me how amazed she was that our interpretations were so incredibly similar, though we had never even seen each other dance!! My thinking is that we have a similar understanding of the way that Egyptian music is put together and how to interpret it. I think this may happen fairly often.
Regards,
A'isha