Money to be in a dance performance?

charity

New member
She's not out-and-out defrauding anyone, she's just charging unreasonable prices, for things she shouldn't be charging for at all. I'm not sure that such complaints will do anything.

The only thing that will get through to this woman is if everyone refuses to pay her fees. Why not organize a friendly student dance night where you can perform for each other? You don't have to invite Satanteacher:mad: if you don't want to.

i agree.

it is a shame though. i bet she is using the money to buy extra beautiful costumes for her and her daughters.

honestly if she werent an exceptional teacher, which it sounds like she isnt, i would take my business elsewhere.

my teacher and studio is very generous. we get to borrow costumes and we are even having a sewing class. we have to pay 7 bucks for an hour or 12 for an hour and half. surely that isnt HALF the cost of renting all the sewing machines or the trouble of finding people to donate their machine for a night.

plus my teacher hasnt snapped at anyone. she will correct us and try to help us constructively and never rudely.

i'm going to go out on a limb and say that she's a bad one.

what a shame that you got a bad one, kutenurse.

someone mentioned offering their student free studio time, WOW, that would be so nice. i would be there every free hour.
 

KuteNurse

New member
She is not a bad person per say...She just wants to collect on all she can. She actually does have talent as a dancer, I think she is just going crazy or something...lol I am changing teachers and I am actually registered for a summer class starting in mid June. This instructor is supposed to be an absolute sweetheart, very helpful and she teaches BD properly. :D
 

KuteNurse

New member
i agree.

it is a shame though. i bet she is using the money to buy extra beautiful costumes for her and her daughters.

honestly if she werent an exceptional teacher, which it sounds like she isnt, i would take my business elsewhere.

my teacher and studio is very generous. we get to borrow costumes and we are even having a sewing class. we have to pay 7 bucks for an hour or 12 for an hour and half. surely that isnt HALF the cost of renting all the sewing machines or the trouble of finding people to donate their machine for a night.

plus my teacher hasnt snapped at anyone. she will correct us and try to help us constructively and never rudely.

i'm going to go out on a limb and say that she's a bad one.

what a shame that you got a bad one, kutenurse.

someone mentioned offering their student free studio time, WOW, that would be so nice. i would be there every free hour.


That is really cool charity that she has sewing time to make costumes. I would love to get into something like that.
 

belly_dancer

New member
before I say more.... I must state that CHARGING students to perform (esp $!50 is totally jaw dropping!!!!!!) I would NEVER even consider that! (I have charged at haflas, & then used that money to pay the drummer!!!!!)

however.... as a teacher, I am NOT ever able to put on shows in a venue where I can fit in 600 people because I cannot afford that size venue, nor can I afford to take a loss if I do not cover expenses/etc..... so I do NOT put on big shows, because I would not ask other dancers to share in the expense/risk

I AM curious as to
*what kind of show this was (with the students, it sounds like a "student night" w/ maybe some professionals.... cause for just a student night, how did she get away with charging $15 per head.... )
*what were her expenses??? (halls that size are usually WAY expensive/ plus advertising, & if it was a more professional show with several professional dancers in addition to the students.... she would (HOPEFULLY) be paying the pros!!!..etc...)
anyhow... not defending this odd behaviour in any way,,, but also realize... that she may NOT actually be making TONS of money after all is said & done!!!
(& of course with ALL the other stuff you listed, it sounds like the correct decision, to change teachers!!!)
 

da Sage

New member
While charging students to be in a show might make sense in some situations, $150 per student is a bit much. This woman clearly has grandiose ideas of her "performance needs", or she is aiming to line her own pockets.

It would make more sense if it were more along the lines of the following: "We have an opportunity to rent SuperPerformance Hall on June 24th for $1500; we can afford it if at least 50 of my 75 students pony up $30 each. Of course every student will get 6 tickets to give to friends and family; I will be selling the other tickets for $10 each to the general public, and that money will fund refreshments for the audience, and an after-party for us.

"Or we can rent Ye Olde VFW and charge $2 at the door to non-performers to cover the cost. In that case we can only bring 2.5 guests each-otherwise the fire marshall will throw us out."

It's totally uncool that these students aren't being given a mid-to-low range performance option, and are being guilted into funding the teacher's ego trip instead.:naghty: An advanced dancer might logically be asked to invest in a show, if she had a chance to make the money back. But 10-week dance students shouldn't be asked (or expected) to fund a professional-quality show.
 
Last edited:

Aisha Azar

New member
Payment, etc.

before I say more.... I must state that CHARGING students to perform (esp $!50 is totally jaw dropping!!!!!!) I would NEVER even consider that! (I have charged at haflas, & then used that money to pay the drummer!!!!!)



Dear Belly_ dancer

.... I am confused here. Is there some reason why you would charge the dancers, yet pay the drummer???

Regards,
A'isha
 

sedoniaraqs

New member
Well, it depends on what is meant by hafla. If it is a party that is primarily for dancers that are going to be dancing for each other, then I can see charging an admission that covers refreshments and musicians.

If it is a formal performance with tickets sold to the general public, then I can't see charging the dancers to pay the musicians.



before I say more.... I must state that CHARGING students to perform (esp $!50 is totally jaw dropping!!!!!!) I would NEVER even consider that! (I have charged at haflas, & then used that money to pay the drummer!!!!!)



Dear Belly_ dancer

.... I am confused here. Is there some reason why you would charge the dancers, yet pay the drummer???

Regards,
A'isha
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Payment, etc.

Dear Sedonia,
The problem is that the musicians are typically treated as more important than the dancers in western countries. If it is a hafleh where amateur students are dancing and professional musicians hasve been hired for the evening, then charge the audience but not the performers. If it is a situation where both dancers and musicains are professional then everyone should be paid.
Generally in clubs, the musicians are paid far better than the dancer are for the comparable time that each spends on stage. I got pretty sick of some of the ways that dancers were treated in comparison to musicians.
This is fairly typical of what happens. I have had two different bands get in contact with me about supplying dancers for their shows when they were performing here. They collected money for their shows, but wanted dancers who would dance for free. In one case, I made it clear that my dancers did not work for free. In another case, I asked a dancer if she was interested in dancing, assuming she would make her own financial arrangements. She did not do so and did not get paid. In the first case the musicians assured me that it would be great publicity for us. In the second case, the dancer just chalked it up to experience and said it would look great on her resume that she danced with that particular band. In both cases, I was left with a bad taste in my mouth, A- that the band would think we would dance for free, and B, that the dancer did not think enough of her talent to ask for pay.
Regards,
A'isha
 
Last edited:

Outi

New member
Especially after my experience dancing in Egypt, I would NEVER work with a band and get paid less than them. Here is just the opposite. People hire the dancer, who brings in the band. The musicians are paid much less. About half of the money is for dancer and rest is divided with all the rest - musicians, technicians, manager and other helpers in the set. Depending of the event from 10 to 20 people.

In West things are different, I know. But anyway we should never put ourselves down and should always demand respect, every way - even with the money.
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Dancers, etc.

Dear Donya,
I think in Egypt it is the band who gets screwed!! They should make equitable pay for equitable time. I tend to have a REALLY egalitarian streak and my husband constantly reminds me that "Life ain't fair". While I do not think it is always possible to do the best thing and the fair thing at the same time, I think we could move alot closer to it if we tried.
Now, can you tell us why the band recieves so much less than the dancer in Egypt?
Regards,
A'isha
 

Recnadocir

New member
There is one thing that would help professional level belly dancers receive equitable pay- a union. Having said that, I know it is very difficult to get all dancers to join, and all employers to recognize a union, so that every job where a dancer is paid is governed by a union contract.

I belong to the American Guild of Musical Artists, which governs any work I might do with larger companies, or with ballet companies. There are other unions concerned with the movie industry (SAG), live theater (ACTRA) etc. However, I wouldn't turn down a non-union job that pays, if it were the only job available, or the best job available for one reason or another. Therein lies the difficulty in creating and maintaining a universal union for dancers. I employ dancers myself, as independent contractors, and pay them relatively well for rehearsals by most accounts, but to have to work under a union contract, pay them benefits, etc. would prevent me from having a dance company, at this point.
 

Outi

New member
First of all dancers are the stars, people don't care who is drumming. They want to see dancer X. If we have famous singer like Madonna, we don't expect them to get same money as rest of the crew. She takes more. Same with dancers here.

It costs to be dancer too. New costumes all the time, choreographers, lessons, new music, taking care of the appearance: "normal" clothes to go to the work, make-up, jewelry. All of this is expected and necessary.

The wages here are very low in the first place. Cleaning or similar job can pay something like 2$/hour. Even less if we take the traveling time etc. The employment rate is VERY high. Any person with a work is lucky to have one.

As for musicians, there is plenty of them. So there is always someone ready to work. They don't need to put any money to buying new instruments etc. all the time. Even with training they expect to paid a little. All other costuming, for example similar ties or shirts, dancers are expected to get.
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Dancers, etc.

First of all dancers are the stars, people don't care who is drumming. They want to see dancer X. If we have famous singer like Madonna, we don't expect them to get same money as rest of the crew. She takes more. Same with dancers here.

It costs to be dancer too. New costumes all the time, choreographers, lessons, new music, taking care of the appearance: "normal" clothes to go to the work, make-up, jewelry. All of this is expected and necessary.

The wages here are very low in the first place. Cleaning or similar job can pay something like 2$/hour. Even less if we take the traveling time etc. The employment rate is VERY high. Any person with a work is lucky to have one.

As for musicians, there is plenty of them. So there is always someone ready to work. They don't need to put any money to buying new instruments etc. all the time. Even with training they expect to paid a little. All other costuming, for example similar ties or shirts, dancers are expected to get.



Dear Donya,
HHMMMM.... sounds very similar to how dancers are treated here, except nobody buys our "shirts and ties" for us!! I still think muscians and dancers ought to be treated equitably, even if one or the other is a dime a dozen! Here we have a plethora of dancers that are "always ready to work" and this means often before they are ready, whether or not they know their job, etc. There are plenty of people here who want to work without knowing what in heck they are doing, and they do nothing but make it harder for legitimate dancers, because they will dance for cheap or free, and do whatever it takes to get on stage.

Regards,
A'isha
Regards,
A'isha
 

Outi

New member
The wages here are very low in the first place. Cleaning or similar job can pay something like 2$/hour. Even less if we take the traveling time etc. The employment rate is VERY high. Any person with a work is lucky to have one.

As for musicians, there is plenty of them. So there is always someone ready to work. They don't need to put any money to buying new instruments etc. all the time. Even with training they expect to paid a little. All other costuming, for example similar ties or shirts, dancers are expected to get.

Musicians get normal monthly wages - what ever it is. They have to live and support family like the rest of the people. Many musicians work even with couple of dancers. They start the evening with one and later go to work with somebody else.

To be honest I wouldn't/couldn't survive with the money, if I had same money as my rest of my team. The money I have to pay every month for dancing is more than many people make here during that time. Plus of course my normal living: rent, food, traffic etc.
 

KuteNurse

New member
before I say more.... I must state that CHARGING students to perform (esp $!50 is totally jaw dropping!!!!!!) I would NEVER even consider that! (I have charged at haflas, & then used that money to pay the drummer!!!!!)

however.... as a teacher, I am NOT ever able to put on shows in a venue where I can fit in 600 people because I cannot afford that size venue, nor can I afford to take a loss if I do not cover expenses/etc..... so I do NOT put on big shows, because I would not ask other dancers to share in the expense/risk

I AM curious as to
*what kind of show this was (with the students, it sounds like a "student night" w/ maybe some professionals.... cause for just a student night, how did she get away with charging $15 per head.... )
*what were her expenses??? (halls that size are usually WAY expensive/ plus advertising, & if it was a more professional show with several professional dancers in addition to the students.... she would (HOPEFULLY) be paying the pros!!!..etc...)
anyhow... not defending this odd behaviour in any way,,, but also realize... that she may NOT actually be making TONS of money after all is said & done!!!
(& of course with ALL the other stuff you listed, it sounds like the correct decision, to change teachers!!!)


The performance was at a local private high school in their auditorium which seated just more than 600 people. She sold the tickets at $15 dollars a pop. So if she did sell 600 tickets, that is 9,000 dollars. (The auditorium did look like it was close to being full.) I could not imagine the school would have charged her more than 2 grand. Then on top of the tickets, she charged her students 150.00 per the dance they were in. INCLUDING her lead students. (I do not think they were quite pro level, but close.) Of course, she did not charge her own daughter $150.00 per dance she was in, even though she danced 4 dances.

The dances were simple: beginners and mid-level dancers doing a veil dance, stick dance and a ribcage dance. About 6 solos were done. Her daughter did a solo to Shakira then another dance to a drum solo. Another woman did who looks to be almost professional level, did a dance with wings which was very beautiful...She is quite talented. Two other upper level women did a sword dance and a basic BD dance.
 

da Sage

New member
The performance was at a local private high school in their auditorium which seated just more than 600 people. She sold the tickets at $15 dollars a pop. So if she did sell 600 tickets, that is 9,000 dollars. (The auditorium did look like it was close to being full.) I could not imagine the school would have charged her more than 2 grand. Then on top of the tickets, she charged her students 150.00 per the dance they were in. INCLUDING her lead students. (I do not think they were quite pro level, but close.)

I think it is shameful that she would take advantage of her students in such a way! If the hall was 3/4 full, that would be 450 seats. At $15 each, that would be about $6750 - more than enough to cover one-night rental on an auditorium in a medium-sized city (plus tech crew).

And to think that she charged $150...not per dancer, but per dance! Just 4 group dances with 10 students each would give her another $6000! I cannot believe that the students paid her that kind of money!!!:doh:

Did she order the costumes for the dancers? I wager if she did, she marked them up, or kept the "bulk discount" difference for herself!

So if she made at least $6000 on dancer fees, $6000 on tickets, and outlaid $2000 for venue costs, she easily profited by $10,000 or more!! That might be legal, but it's still criminal!:mad::mad:

This is as bad (or worse) than those "modeling agencies" that give classes, or sell photograph packages and "professional representation".

I wish the Better Business Bureau could do something. Perhaps the dancer grapevine (or local media) would be more effective, though.:protest:
 
Last edited:

KuteNurse

New member
I think it is shameful that she would take advantage of her students in such a way! If the hall was 3/4 full, that would be 450 seats. At $15 each, that would be about $6750 - more than enough to cover one-night rental on an auditorium in a medium-sized city (plus tech crew).

And to think that she charged $150...not per dancer, but per dance! Just 4 group dances with 10 students each would give her another $6000! I cannot believe that the students paid her that kind of money!!!:doh:

Did she order the costumes for the dancers? I wager if she did, she marked them up, or kept the "bulk discount" difference for herself!

So if she made at least $6000 on dancer fees, $6000 on tickets, and outlaid $2000 for venue costs, she easily profited by $10,000 or more!! That might be legal, but it's still criminal!:mad::mad:

This is as bad (or worse) than those "modeling agencies" that give classes, or sell you photograph packages and "professional representation.

I wish the Better Business Bureau could do something. Perhaps the dancer grapevine (or local media) would be more effective, though.:protest:

Exactly daSage! I believe the students each paid for their own costumes...I do not know if they were made or bought...However, the instructor is now in Jordan where she is from and is also traveling to Egypt...Wonder where she is spending the money? lol
 

janaki

New member
I agree with Donya in many ways. If the show is about a bellydancer, I think she should get paid more than the musicians. The dancer here is selling the show and the tickets and not the musicians. In a music show, backup dancers don't get paid like the singers!!!

In our dance school, we have a level system for the payment. We provide everything that is required to a put a show , like costumes, props, music, studio, rehearsal etc.,

Our payment methods are like this.

1. Junior perfromers: Just started perfroming- they get paid less but we will give them free gift coupon for dance classes so that they can get better.

2. troupe members,: Already performed few shows and can dance very well - they get paid higher than the juniors. The reason they get paid more is becasue of the money and time they spent dancing to become a professional.

3.instructors: They get paid the highest. But they have addtional duties like, stage management, helping in the rehearsals, helping with costumes and all other stuff that goes with the dancing.

In Hong Kong we don't have ME musicans. I just work with one drummer!!!

I also agree with A'isha. I don't understand why the dancers get paid lot less than the muscians in USA. We have lot more expenses than musicans. You can't show up with the same costume for every show!!!!

In my opinion equality in payment doesn't exist!!! Even in a work place not everyone gets the same pay!!!

Cheers
Janaki
 
Top