A new idea

trang1808 said:

Hi,

Merry Xmas and Happy New Year bellydancer.

I am sorry for disappear for long time. My thread was in dust.

My English is not well. Please forgive me if my explanation has mistakes.

Dear Caroline and Aisha,

Thank you for your enthusiasm to this wonderful art.

I am sorry again. I have not read your comments yet. I still have limit in my reading.

Thank you Caroline. Living in this life we need a soul. It does not mean I do not agree with Aisha. Thank you Aisha because you point out the other side of this art.

I suggest idea to combine traveling and teaching to expand belly dance in more countries, specially in my country.
It is honor if belly dance develop in right way with real instructors. They will bring us true lessons. They have lots of experiences so we do not have pain while practicing.

In my country, some girls watch videos then open class. They show their dance in bar and proud of what they do. And the other Vietnamese see they dancing believing that it is belly dance. What is your feeling if you know that most Vietnamese elder call belly dance is dirty dance and it is for naughty girls?

I understand you Aisha. The payment we give to instructors show our respect to them. Because they show the art, their dance is respectful and belly dance in their expression way affirm that it is not dirty dance - it is an art form.

My idea is a wish. Everybody can wish and dream. My dream is about belly dance. What do you feel when you dance or you can do a difficult movement? I feel that I am a winner. First I can control my body. Second I proud of my body and myself. How wonderful it is when I feel my energy flow out my body into my dance! I am not good at dance. I am practicing every day.

There are more ways to kill an art if it does not grow in good environment. It is same in every where.

Those girls opening classes do not want to invite real instructors come my country. I can understand why. However, why we hide our mistakes and the result is existing a new born art?

I know the cost to invite a professor is too high. With my student's finance, I can't afford. There is no organization in my country think about developing this art. I hope there is a volunteer.

Because Vietnamese is host, I have responsibility to pay for accommodation, transportation....

Best wishes.
Happy holidays

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trang1808 said:

I am not sure that it is a good idea. I have tried my best

What do you think if we combine traveling and teaching in Vietnam? There is no real belly dance instructor in my country. What I can do is watching and practicing through those videos online.

I am greedy to learn belly dance methodically.

I am a student so I can't afford to invite famous instructors ( but I'd love to)

I hope you consider it.

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Granddad said:

No quotes on this one for me ... there are too many! :shok:

In a nutshell, I seem to be a bit of a hippy too because I'm with Caroline on this one. I've visited developing nations in the course of my career in my youth and lived in other countries so maybe that influences my thinking... I'm also totally unable to make money :lol: . [snip]
Back to the topic... As I said, I'm with Caroline, what's wrong with trading skills for hospitality if you're going to another country anyway? Spending time with local people is going to enhance your stay and open your eyes to the way the other half lives. [snip]

I think it's an idea that is worth pursuing.

Belly Dancers Sans Frontières? :lol:

[snip]

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speckie said:

Hi Trang, hi Everyone,

Sorry to catch up with you all so late.

Uhmmm, I don't know why Trang wrote there is no REAL belly dance instructor in Vietnam. I think she means she doesn't have yet a chance to learn from a REAL instructor.

Trang, it is true because you are living in Hochiminh city where belly dance has been mostly taught as belly dance fitness in some studios and gyms. But in Hanoi, for two years now, belly dancer Ara Hwang has been instructing us and I do believe she is a REAL belly dance instructor.

The problem is, she is stuck with too much work in Hanoi and hasn't got a good chance to go to HCMC. But I know she will in the near future. Also sometimes we 'catch' some belly dancers from US who come to Hanoi for holiday and they were really helpful giving some workshops at 'vietnamese' prices

Wish you find your real instructor soon in HCMC, Trang

btw, this is the lattest news about our Festival two weeks ago:
Belly dance fever sweeps Vietnam's capital - Yahoo! News

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. Also sometimes we 'catch' some belly dancers from US who come to Hanoi for holiday and they were really helpful giving some workshops at 'vietnamese' prices
Speckie

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speckie said:

Hi Trang, hi Everyone,

Sorry to catch up with you all so late.

Uhmmm, I don't know why Trang wrote there is no REAL belly dance instructor in Vietnam. I think she means she doesn't have yet a chance to learn from a REAL instructor.

Trang, it is true because you are living in Hochiminh city where belly dance has been mostly taught as belly dance fitness in some studios and gyms. But in Hanoi, for two years now, belly dancer Ara Hwang has been instructing us and I do believe she is a REAL belly dance instructor.

The problem is, she is stuck with too much work in Hanoi and hasn't got a good chance to go to HCMC. But I know she will in the near future. Also sometimes we 'catch' some belly dancers from US who come to Hanoi for holiday and they were really helpful giving some workshops at 'vietnamese' prices

Wish you find your real instructor soon in HCMC, Trang

btw, this is the lattest news about our Festival two weeks ago:
Belly dance fever sweeps Vietnam's capital - Yahoo! News

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trang1808 said:

Hi,

Merry Xmas and Happy New Year bellydancer.

I am sorry for disappear for long time. My thread was in dust.


My English is not well. Please forgive me if my explanation has mistakes.

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And Season's Greetings to you. Let us look at this in a real way. Your English is way better than our Vietnamese!! You speak two languages and I speak one and can not write in any other, either!!

Dear Caroline and Aisha,
Thank you for your enthusiasm to this wonderful art.
I am sorry again. I have not read your comments yet. I still have limit in my reading.
Thank you Caroline. Living in this life we need a soul. It does not mean I do not agree with Aisha. Thank you Aisha because you point out the other side of this art.

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For some reason, many people often think that artists should do things for free. I get it suggested to me many times in the course of any given year that I should donate my services for one cause or another, and I do so twice a year.

I suggest idea to combine traveling and teaching to expand belly dance in more countries, specially in my country.
It is honor if belly dance develop in right way with real instructors. They will bring us true lessons. They have lots of experiences so we do not have pain while practicing.

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We already combine traveling and teaching and we work, just like a secretary or garbage man or any other person. We have given the dance away for so long...... In the 34 years that I have been dancing, I can not tell you how many times I have danced and taught for free and it took me a long time to say no to that, because in my heart I am an "old hippy" too, who loves to share and likes everything to be fair and equal, which of course will never happen. I found in the end the person I was being the most unfair to was me.

In my country, some girls watch videos then open class. They show their dance in bar and proud of what they do. And the other Vietnamese see they dancing believing that it is belly dance. What is your feeling if you know that most Vietnamese elder call belly dance is dirty dance and it is for naughty girls?

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Ah, just like in countries of origin!! It is considered a dance done by naughty girls in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, throughput the Middle East.

I understand you Aisha. The payment we give to instructors show our respect to them. Because they show the art, their dance is respectful and belly dance in their expression way affirm that it is not dirty dance - it is an art form.

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It can be an art form, yes, but the reasons for paying the instructor are many. It does show respect, it also means more to the person who has offered a trade as opposed to just accepting charity. It leaves both parties with some self respect if some kind of payment is rendered for the service. When teaching workshop, not ALL people involved are on the same economic level and there are surely those who can afford to pay in money. I make my living as a dancer and do a certain amount of charity work already, but have learned to put limits on it so I do not end up feeling used. I take responsibility for my own feelings in this way. There was a time when I did not know how to do this and ended up working for free more than I was paid. I learned a lesson of great value to me. As a woman who makes a living dancing, I have to draw some lines.

My idea is a wish. Everybody can wish and dream. My dream is about belly dance. What do you feel when you dance or you can do a difficult movement? I feel that I am a winner. First I can control my body. Second I proud of my body and myself. How wonderful it is when I feel my energy flow out my body into my dance! I am not good at dance. I am practicing every day.

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Wishes and dreams are very wonderful, but they must be supported by practical hard work, as I must do in order to make work for myself, provide myself with venues to dance, build up a reputation for integrity in the service I provide, etc.

There are more ways to kill an art if it does not grow in good environment. It is same in every where.
Those girls opening classes do not want to invite real instructors come my country. I can understand why. However, why we hide our mistakes and the result is existing a new born art?

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Yes, that happens everywhere, more out of greed and ego than because people can not afford things. The exact same thing happens in the States where most of us pay for our classes and many can afford to do so. Some of the worst offenders have plenty of money!! It is not an economic thing.

I know the cost to invite a professor is too high. With my student's finance, I can't afford. There is no organization in my country think about developing this art. I hope there is a volunteer.
Because Vietnamese is host, I have responsibility to pay for accommodation, transportation....

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Perhaps you could get together with other instructors and co-host someone?
You may be surprised at the turn out if you charge a reasonable fee for the classes and try to hire someone who charges reasonable rates as opposed to a huge, expensive star. Do some research, and look at several dancers who you might want to bring. See what kind of prices various people that you respect charge for workshops. See if a good deal that offers something to everyone can be reached. Find someone who will fly at a reasonable rate instead of having to take the first class flight. Find someone who will be willing to stay in a clean home and does not have to have special food or be treated like a princess. Find someone who will work with you to make the sponsorship as reasonably priced as possible.
It seems there is at least one other Vietnamese dancer here and perhaps a sponsorship can be done by a group with a little expense for all instead of a huge expense for one.
I wish you the best of fortune in finding a solution to your problem! You seem like a very nice person.
Regards,
A'isha


Best wishes.
Happy holidays

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Caroline_afifi said:

At Vietnamese prices.... well that sounds much better!
It just makes you think about how much the 'affluent' West has managed to control the dance scene through money.
Poeple have allowed fee's to be pushed up and up and up... they are so desperate to get a certain person over that they dont think about what they are doing. AAH...

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Not me.

once a person knows they can get a certain amount off one person then that is it. Then it becomes only people with big dance business networks whom can afford to bring certain people over. Even then, all the non pro dancers pay for this by paying ridiculous amounts for a workshop with 50-100 people in them. I am the only one who thinks this has gone out of control or is this accepted as the norm?

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Again, not me. I charge $25 per student for a 3 hour workshop and the sponsor adds to that fee whatever they feel is fair for their area, hopefully enough for expenses and a salary of some sort, or at least a little left over. I also limit my classes to 30 people so no one will get rich hiring me, but they WILL get a very good class at a reasonable rate to all unless they are greedy and overcharge at their end.

As much as I love this dance I despise greed.
Everything is based on inflated Western prices and people in non Western countries have got a 'cat in hells' chance of affording teachers from overseas and even less chance of getting a name from Egypt.

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And, in many cases, one must have studied the dance for some time in order to get much out of a class with a "name form Egypt, because most are not teachers, they are entertainers and do not really teach to the western mode of learning. There is often very little individual attention or feedback. One must be able to learn through close observation and repetition in order to learn from the usual Egyptian big name. One must understand the dance on some level other than "learning new steps" as they say. Their job is not to teach, for the most part, but to perform.

Regards,
A'isha

Art my ass.

Speckie, I am glad you get people on holiday who are willing to accept a fee at your local prices. I wish more people were like that!

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Aisha Azar said:

Dear Caroline,

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Again, not me. I charge $25 per student for a 3 hour workshop and the sponsor adds to that fee whatever they feel is fair for their area, hopefully enough for expenses and a salary of some sort, or at least a little left over. I also limit my classes to 30 people so no one will get rich hiring me, but they WILL get a very good class at a reasonable rate to all unless they are greedy and overcharge at their end.

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Caroline_afifi said:

I think this is a fair price depending on where you are travelling from. If you were to come to the Uk though this would not cover your expenses.

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I have no expenses in correlation with the dance except a meal on the trip. the sponsor is responsible for my travel and putting me up. I can travel second class and I also can stay with someone ass long as the accomadations are reasonably clean and there are no mice, rats, spiders or other vermin.

I probably have funny principles. The more somebody wants a red carpet the more likely I am to pull it from under them.
I am not too good for anyone and nobody in the world is too good for me.

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I do not bother with them is all, and I agree that I am not better than anyone else.

I also believe in 'art for arts sake' and dont agree that it is all about money. Like I said earlier, that is a choice that people make.
Again, some smell the money and this becomes the chief motivator and they would sell this dance down the river for an extra buck or two.

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Yes, and sometimes they are people about whom you wou;d never dream they would do such a thing.

There are always people like yourself who have great integrity (and I am fortunate to know plenty others) but there are others I would like to give a free ticket on a rocket and blast their selfish little backsides into outerspace.

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Aisha Azar said:

Dear Caroline,

I have no expenses in correlation with the dance except a meal on the trip. the sponsor is responsible for my travel and putting me up. I can travel second class and I also can stay with someone ass long as the accomadations are reasonably clean and there are no mice, rats, spiders or other vermin.

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So the barn is out then? :lol:

I do not bother with them is all, and I agree that I am not better than anyone else.

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I suppose what I mean here is there are plenty of people out there who deserve (and I give my upmost respect), however, they soon lose it if they turn out to be a 'Superstar'... with all the expectations that go with it.

Sometimes I honour those with modesty and integrity more than I admire ones dance skills.

I admire the people who run festivals and deal with all the crap that is the 'Diva belly darncer'.

A few years ago in the Arab Arts festival had a dancer (not belly dancer) who was Middle Eastern, she was aprt of the progarmme we held at the World Museum theatre in Liverpool. She had just about every member of staff crying within two hours of her arrival.

Her performance was pretty fantastic but never again... not without a code of conduct first.

Yes, and sometimes they are people about whom you wou;d never dream they would do such a thing.

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Yes, a few people have surprised me. I respect peoples right to change their mind as long as it is not driven by money.

If you bring the matches, I will bring the fuel!!

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Regards,
A'isha

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Caroline_afifi said:

I was'nt planning on setting them on fire! :lol::lol::lol:

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Aisha Azar said:

Dear Caroline,
I didn't get your whole quotes here, so I will di my best to make a cohesive reply!

Re the barn thing: Somebody once was going to have me stay in her house and she tried to put me in a room where I could easily see about ten large spiders. I am pretty sure they were just waiting for me to lay down and turn out the light before waging an attack. needless to say, i went to a hotel and paid for it myself. this is why I now specify that vermin are not acceptable as house mates!

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Yikes!

I also stayed in an attic room once that was someones teenage sons room. I wont even go into the state of it and I dread to think what was lurking there!
I really dont understand people, I always clean up a bit and change the bedding if someone is staying.

I completely agree about the prima donnas ( regardless of gender)! It is simply not worth putting up with any kind of nonsense from anyone. We tend to be an extremely down to earth bunch and there are no "Stars" in our shows because without the rest of the people on stage, there IS no show.

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Very true, people do themselves out of business sometimes.

Re setting them on fire: I meant that if you bring the matches to start the rocket fuel up, I will bring the fuel for the rocket and we can jet them to nearby planet, you silly!! Did you fail the rocket science portion of your studies or something????
Regards,
A'isha,
Advisor to Nassau ( I hope I spelled it right....)

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Caroline_afifi said:

I was pulling your leg :lol:

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