Posture

adiemus said:

"There are, in fact, movements, exercises, and stretches that do not necessarily produce pain, but that are known (through research) to produce slow, progressive damage to ligaments, tendons, and joints over time"
ummm.... sorry but I really have to jump in - joint degeneration particularly in the spine occurs more as a result of genetics than physical demands.

Click to expand...

I didn't mean joint degenerations or osteoarthritis, so I guess I should not have included "joint". I was referring to the work of Dr. Steven Stark, who wrote "The stark reality of stretching". His comments on some ballet bar stretches were that they tend to damage and over stretch *ligaments* and *tendons* (I think because they are compound stretches), especially when people begin such extreme stretching regimes as adults rather than young children, and over time this can lead to destabilization of the function of joints. He said this could happen even if the stretch did not produce pain. Is his work invalid?

...

from Sarah Shrapnell's site
Lets Belly Dance

Knees--off lock, which means they have a little give. Don't bend you knees as this is far too much like hard work and will hurt tomorrow, but also don't lock you knees tight as you can do damage by twisting on the knee joints. Just a little bit of bounce is fine--think about how you stand on a boat to ride the waves, or one the underground.

Hips--they are in neutral, which is different for different people but basically means that your tail bone should point down. I find people fit into two camps when they first come to class--there are those who wear high heels and pull in their bums and tummies all day, they tend to be a bit over tucked for this dance--then there are those who let their tummies and bums stick out a bit more and they tend to be under tucked. If in doubt don't do anything until your teacher has adjusted you.

Although this doesn't allow for some people having more "booty" it does allow for different natural postures, whic seems to be where some confusin has crept in

Usually the persons who wear high heels are the ones who stick out their butts and stand with locked knees :think:.

Moon said:

Usually the persons who wear high heels are the ones who stick out their butts and stand with locked knees :think:.

Click to expand...

Yes, I think *you're* correct, Moon!

WRT stretching, there is some pretty useful research (can't recall the references at present) that indicated that stretching before exercise makes little or no difference to muscle strain/pain, and there has been evidence for quite some time that stretching on cold muscles can cause inflammation of tendon sheaths and subsequently can inflame the tendon. Some work has been carried out on 'microtears' of the tendons, but this is still a contentious area because most athletes rely on microtears and irritation of the muscle fibres as part of training - this is how muscles get larger and more efficient.
Again, it's the force involved (and with tendons it's often the repetition) that contributes to things like tendonitis and tenosynovitis. Rupture of the tendons requires really high impact although complete rupture (eg of achilles tendon) may occur after there has been partial rupture for some time then it may take a lesser force to achieve the full rupture.
Stretching over two joints really only increases the amount of force that is applied to the muscle/tendon/ligament unit, so a little less force is needed compared with when stretch is applied over one joint.
And tendons have less blood supply, so take longer to settle than muscle.
Sorry to have confused OA and tendon/ligament problems... although the result is quite similar, we're pretty hardy animals except where we ignore discomfort and persist with inefficient biomechanical movements or don't allow sufficient recovery period between training sessions.

I talk about vertical pelvis, this is generally understood

...

I teach mostly from the perspective of the Egyptian style. To me, having a more bent position, especially combined with a bit of leaning back and the weight back over the heels, is very NOT Egyptian for most movements. I see alot of American dancers do this and I don't really like it.

Click to expand...

Old style American Cabaret emphasized leaning back (not to mention very bent knees) and is the way I learned to dance back in the Dark Ages. The weight was over the heels, but not on the heels, if you can follow that bit of logic- you can't dance on the balls of your feet of your weight is on your heels. Styles change and now American dancers are much more upright than in the past. I'm still a leaner when I dance, I confess. Though I don't insist my students keep a AmCab lean, I do prefer to see more bend to the knees than some teachers.

Would you not agree that a slight lean in the upper back gives egyptian UPPER bodies a freedom of movement that is lacking in some western chest figure 8s etc.

No. If you're leaning back you have less room to move your chest because you're compressing your back. Egyptian dancers tend to have their chests more forward than anything, at least these days.

midline would seem to me to be the best way to ensure sufficient ROM...

BTW as a self-confessed duck walker, my lordosis is made up of forward tilted pelvis, limited hip extension (with tightened and shortened quads, long hammies, and not enough lower abdominal strength to tilt the pelvis back far enough) - this means I need to work on strengthening the long, weak muscles, and lengthening/stretching the short, tight ones.
Until I do this, I have to compromise on the posture I can achieve from thoracic and cervical area as my lumbar spine curves more and the other two have curve to accommodate it. But remember, posture is dynamic - it's there to serve us and to form the basis for our movements - so we're aiming for an efficient posture from which to do the movements we need to do.

Zumarrad said:

No. If you're leaning back you have less room to move your chest because you're compressing your back. Egyptian dancers tend to have their chests more forward than anything, at least these days.

Click to expand...

Perhaaps I mean shoulders well back. It would make sense theat western dancers took this to be a lean back, getting it ever so slightly wrong by making posture more self conscious. You can't do those shoulder driven upper body movements unless shoulders are back, and by the way that will also push chest forward.

I see a slight backwards list in Fifi dancing, or is that my eyesight

My teacher says that "shoulders back" thing is a Western invention (in ballet and ballroom and such) and that it's actually an unnatural posture and Egyptian dancers don't do it. They stand more relaxed. Straight up ofcourse, but not with the shoulders back.

Brea said:

Hi all,

I generally teach the tucked-pelvis, bent-knee posture for dance (I know there's more to it than that, but for the sake of brevity). However I just read a thread on Bhuz saying that's incorrect.

What's a dancer to do? I want to teach the proper posture and not harm my students. Anyone have any thoughts?

Click to expand...

I missed that thread - it could be they were saying that extreme tuck is not a good idea. For instance, as much as I like a lot of what Shareen el Safy teaches her extreme pelvic tuck and hold a dime between your cheeks is not part of it!

"Neutral pelvis" is what I think most teachers mean when they say tucked. That is the position where the pelvis is neither tilted neither forward or back. In neutral the anterior hip bone is slightly lower than the posterior superior iliac spine - so if you want to go poking your students pelvis ....

The other problem with terminology is that many students will interpret "tuck your pelvis" as just that and pull their butts down making it all too tight to dance. In the last year or so I've changed it to "lift the front" and I have a hand gesture.

For many people, softening the knees is a requirement to a neutral pelvis. Actually bending the knees, though, help many people initially get some hip moves. The only reason not to bend the knees in perfromance is purely aethestics - bent knees and lycra look odd! You could get aways with it with the old style full skirts.

I've just started exploring Shareen's posture, due to having bought a DVD of hers, and I think it's handy for *certain* work. The way she's teaching on Maryat al Ayam is not "dime between your cheeks" tight, but having some tension in the butt and also in the adductors (which seems to happen automatically with the pelvic lift/butt combo), which she believes helps protect the knees in Egyptian style dance because we're generally putting quite a bit of stress on the outer part of the leg. Well, I can tell you that doing a Souhair Zaki hip chonk thingy (you all know the one) in this posture, which is only a tiny modification of my normal one, no longer gives me sore outer thighs. I suspect it's also good for Shareen's leg shimmy. All the difference I sense really is that instead of just lifting my pubic bone and engaging my lower abs, letting the butt be soft, I'm tucking the tailbone under as well - which is actually what I was taught to do right back in the old days, before I started trying to keep the glutes loose a la Hadia.

On the other hand, a nice hip rock shimmy is most fun with a loose butt.

oh my oh my!!
1st off have to LMAO abt the "duck butt" a phrase I always have used going on 12 years now (thought I was a bit "off"!!!) hehehe glad to know this is common BD terminology!
I HAVE found esp,. with new students.. & a couple of hard core knee lockers... that emphasizing BENT knees (when I really mean "soft") will get the point across much more quickly...
AND....as far as "tucking the butt", ...... I used to say that alot... but found that it changed the "duck butts" into "lounge lizards"... (ok... go with me here... stand up now & assume the "duck butt" position, then instead of pulling up your pelvis & lengthening your low back just simply PUSH your pelvis forward (now the weight (& your hips) is over your toes, your shoulders are over your heels (& for some reason tend to sink a bit), & your lower back is CRUNCHED))
NOW (go back to duck butt from lounge lizard~~~btw that is the technical term for the slightly aging/polyester & gold chain wearing/smarmy/greasy guy who trys to pick you up at any one of a number of bars across the US- on & off screen!) I tell em to pull up the pelvis (up towards the belly button) & LENGTHEN THE LOWER SPINE... so imagine that the measure btwn your pubic bone & belly button is 7" & btwn your tail bone & mid back (at waist level) is 6".... I want you to reverse this.... THEN relax the belly muscles ALL the while keeping the weight neutral btwn the toes/heels.... then MAINTAIN this posture while rocking back & forth (NOT the pelvis... but putting the weight into the toes, then into the heels).....
eeeeek sooooo hard to explain.... let me know if anyone "got" it!!!!

but of course, long story short... Brea... SOUNDS like you are ok here... as long as now complaints from students..... maybe you should be asking them (about any pain/discomfort).... the ONLY complaint (KNOCK on wood!!!!!) I have had was from a dedicated knee locker... she went to another teacher then came back & said... well SHE told me to bend my knees (luckily she did this IN class where I had many of her studio mates... they were like... WELL belly_dancer tells you (& us) that 10x per class!!!)... but AGAIN>>>> another good reason for multiple teachers.......
ANOTHER (weird)issue I have found after years of teaching... I am TALL... so in MY class SHORT girls sometimes have (more) issues (than tall girls) w/ bending their knees????!!!!! (GO FIGURE!!!)
so I MENTION to them that I always had issues going on the balls of my feet (with my 1st (short!!) teacher... but BOTH positions have their place!!!!

I think it boils down to.... what is that phrase... you cannot please ALL the people ALL the time!!!!!
so... just keep looking around (your class) & correct (as necessary) the postures/movements & find as many DIFFERENT ways as possible of explaining the SAME move/posture... that way MORE will catch on!!! (but when they do... LET em know that THEY have got it!!!

Zumarrad said:

I've just started exploring Shareen's posture, due to having bought a DVD of hers, and I think it's handy for *certain* work. The way she's teaching on Maryat al Ayam is not "dime between your cheeks" tight, but having some tension in the butt and also in the adductors (which seems to happen automatically with the pelvic lift/butt combo), which she believes helps protect the knees in Egyptian style dance because we're generally putting quite a bit of stress on the outer part of the leg. Well, I can tell you that doing a Souhair Zaki hip chonk thingy (you all know the one) in this posture, which is only a tiny modification of my normal one, no longer gives me sore outer thighs. I suspect it's also good for Shareen's leg shimmy. All the difference I sense really is that instead of just lifting my pubic bone and engaging my lower abs, letting the butt be soft, I'm tucking the tailbone under as well - which is actually what I was taught to do right back in the old days, before I started trying to keep the glutes loose a la Hadia.

On the other hand, a nice hip rock shimmy is most fun with a loose butt.

Click to expand...

oh yeah... forgot to say that in my advanced class (& with my adult children!!!!) I then tell em that "rules" are meant to be broken... & (for my class... not my children... they have other rules to "break!")... that changing the posture (as long as your body has the strength not to hurt itself!) is ONE of the ways of changing the move.... (for instance... a "camel" is a pretty universal move..... but HOW you do it (in some cases posture/in other cases WHERE it originates, not to mention musical choices etc... but that is not THIS thread!) will differentiate btwn Egyptian/tribal/Turkish/etc....