Coordination issues

Shiro · Sep 13, 2011

I've been "learning" bellydance for about 4 years now, and one thing I still have trouble with is coordination. I cant walk and shimmy with my hips or shoulders without looking like I have something stuck up my behind, I cant walk and do any movements and I certainly cannot layer anything. I would love to be able to actually move around when I dance (for myself), but I'm so darn clumsy and uncoordinated. I try to do different exercises with layering, ones where I can do both movements with good posture... But when joined together, no matter how hard I try, I leave that posture. I don't want to just keep going when I go out of posture since doing that would put that into my muscle memory and probably make it harder to refine later in life. What would you guys suggest?

Also, on the topic of learning, I got a ton of videos on Ebay for like 10 dollars. One of them was a bellydance video in with a lot of yoga and pilates videos. It's called "Flex Appeal." I watched about 10 minutes of it and the woman makes bellydance seem like such a sexual dance. However, some of the video looked okay. What do you guys think about it?

gisela · Sep 13, 2011

I am not sure what to suggest. One thing that struck me though was what you said about posture. Can it be that you are so "afraid" of losing your posture that you get too stiff and therefore can't move around? To move you have to adjust your body and change posture. Perhaps you need to practice on the dynamic, relaxed posture? I'm thinking of it as locking the knee and getting stiff legs or keeping the legs straight but not locked and ready to go

Does this make sense?

I have never heard of flex appeal, but if you don't like her approach then just ditch it

Shiro · Sep 13, 2011

I guess that could be it. I am really particular about my posture. I'm very prone to putting my back out if I'm not careful. My doctor and therapist (who has similar issues) think it's good for me to continue practicing, but I really have to be careful about how I move. I tend to keep things a bit more tense when it comes to posture, it feels a lot better on my back.

I skipped though some of Flex Appeal, Kathy doesn't seem to know what she's doing! Haha. Ansuya is in it, though. At the end Ansuya explains exactly how to do it, Kathy just tells you to. I guess I'll keep it because of Ansuya's part in it. She's a pretty good teacher and really breaks things down.

Yame · Sep 13, 2011

I've seen a piece of Flex Appeal on youtube, I think after reading it about it on this forum.

It is not a DVD I would use. It doesn't look like the instructor knows what she's doing. She seems like a 6-week wonder (or even a 1-weekend wonder). If I want to learn how to belly dance, I'd like to learn it from a real belly dancer.

As for tips on learning how to layer and travel... my suggestion is that you work with a teacher who uses a lot of layering and traveling in her dancing and in her classes. Do you take live classes at all, or have you studied independently this entire time? The reason I ask is because people who have never worked with a live teacher very often have this problem. These are the kinds of boundaries that are hard to push yourself past if you don't have an instructor to teach you, correct you, and push you. It's easy to stand there and figure out how to do isolations on your own, but not as easy to figure out how to move around gracefully and integrate those isolations into that, transitioning seamlessly and keeping nice lines.

If you do have a live instructor, and after 4 years of classes you still can't get past this hurdle, I suggest finding another instructor (you don't necessarily have to ditch the current one... taking classes from 2 different teachers might be what you need).

Aside from that, just keep trying. Yes, try to keep proper posture, but don't beat yourself up too much if you end up "letting go" of your posture when you are trying to layer. It's true that you have to practice the moves correctly in order to get the full benefit of the practice, but sometimes we do need to let go of perfection in order to learn something new. If you can layer a shimmy with some chest movements in less-than-perfect posture, as long as you aren't doing anything that hurts, then settle for that less-than-perfect posture for now, and practice the layering, and then after a week or so start to slowly improve that posture as the layering becomes easier.

Greek Bonfire · Sep 13, 2011

If it's Kathy Smith, forget it. As Yame said, she may very well be a six week wonder but I have heard from many that she concentrates more on sexing it up than portraying bellydance in a true light. Also, she is a fitness expert which is not the same as a bellydance expert.

I had posture conflicts too as I was always tall for my age so many people (thankfully) always stressed to me and even hovered over me to make sure I did not slouch. This has led to having little to no back problems which is fine for just about anything. However, when I was learning to bellydance, I had to learn to "relax" a lot of my body parts so that I could be more flexible. Also, I hated relaxing my belly as I spent most of my life tightening it, and then I had to let it loose? But that too goes back to where it should, so I was able to relax in knowing that my whole posture would not suffer.

Shanazel · Sep 13, 2011

I suspect you are trying so hard that you're tripping yourself up with all sorts of tension and stress.

When my students have trouble relaxing or putting energy into their dance I yell, "Run, run, run!!!" They dash from one end of the studio to the other a couple of times then immediately return to what they were doing before. That burst of running relaxes them, gives 'em a burst of adreniline, makes them laugh, and they always do better afterward. You might try it. Couldn't hurt, might help.

LilithNoor · Sep 13, 2011

Some really good advice here!

I totally agree, posture is important, but so is not feeling like you have a stick up your jacksie.

Try and alternate between working hard on your posture and just having a good dance around. Your body will soon tell you if your posture (especially your pelvis) has slipped enough that it's not good for you- check in every few minutes to see if there's any ache developing in your lower back. You may also be tucking your pelvis too far forward- check yourself out in a mirro and see what you look like with the pelvis relaxed, then keep adjusting until you find a compromise between duck bottom and stick bottom.

Kashmir · Sep 13, 2011

Have you tried mixing the two very slooowly? Then bring it back to "normal" speed.

To get grace you need to be working in automatic brain state - ie you must not be thinking about how to generate the movement - it needs to just "happen". You also need to use as few muscles as possible - for this you need to relax.

From your post I suspect you are not doing either.

For your posture, what problem are you correcting - and how are you correcting it? For instance, if you tend to drop your pelvis, you need to pick up with the abs - not "tuck" with the glutes. And more important - you need to balance your muscles to make this "natural" eg stretch your hamstrings and do it 24/7.

BigJim · Sep 13, 2011

Kashmir has made a very good point.... it has to do with your mind getting in the way. After 4 years you probably have a pretty good shimmie.. and you probably have pretty good chest slides. But when you try and put the two together (or shimmy and go for a walk) you are probably concentrating so hard on the slide that the coordination seems to go south on you.... Don't think about it just do it.... put on some music with some flow to it and concentrate on the music... start moving and within a week it will be like magic...

Shiro · Sep 14, 2011

Kashmir said:
Have you tried mixing the two very slooowly? Then bring it back to "normal" speed.

To get grace you need to be working in automatic brain state - ie you must not be thinking about how to generate the movement - it needs to just "happen". You also need to use as few muscles as possible - for this you need to relax.

From your post I suspect you are not doing either.

For your posture, what problem are you correcting - and how are you correcting it? For instance, if you tend to drop your pelvis, you need to pick up with the abs - not "tuck" with the glutes. And more important - you need to balance your muscles to make this "natural" eg stretch your hamstrings and do it 24/7.

My pelvis tends to revery backwards, especially with most hip movements. I can do slides without a problem, but others are hard not to do that. Usually I put my back out when I make mistakes with this type of movement. I really do have to be careful. Putting my back out leaves be bedridden for quite some time. I've started doing more yoga and pilates for this reason. I want to fix my issues with my back before continuing bellydance, but I also enjoy practicing.

Despite what you think, I do these movements when I am completely relaxed. I start tensing up only after I start going out of posture and it puts a toll on my back.

Darshiva · Sep 14, 2011

Shiro, it is very important to know that not all moves are for everyone. If you are consistently unable to do without pain a move that you know how to do correctly, then that move is probably not for you. That's fine. It's why I don't perform (or teach) headslides or any head-generated movements - they cause me great pain and therefor are not for me.

Yame · Sep 14, 2011

Shiro said:
My pelvis tends to revery backwards, especially with most hip movements. I can do slides without a problem, but others are hard not to do that. Usually I put my back out when I make mistakes with this type of movement. I really do have to be careful. Putting my back out leaves be bedridden for quite some time. I've started doing more yoga and pilates for this reason. I want to fix my issues with my back before continuing bellydance, but I also enjoy practicing.

Despite what you think, I do these movements when I am completely relaxed. I start tensing up only after I start going out of posture and it puts a toll on my back.

Wow... are you saying that these mistakes you are making are giving you back pain that leaves you bedridden?

Have you had any back injuries in the past? Do you have current back problems?

If so, this is something you should definitely warn people about whenever you make a post asking for this kind of advice.

Shanazel · Sep 14, 2011

It's time to seek advice from health care professionals and not dance teachers. In the meantime, commit Darshiva's last post to memory.

da Sage · Sep 14, 2011

Shiro said:
I've been "learning" bellydance for about 4 years now, and one thing I still have trouble with is coordination. I cant walk and shimmy with my hips or shoulders without looking like I have something stuck up my behind, I cant walk and do any movements and I certainly cannot layer anything. I would love to be able to actually move around when I dance (for myself), but I'm so darn clumsy and uncoordinated. I try to do different exercises with layering, ones where I can do both movements with good posture... But when joined together, no matter how hard I try, I leave that posture. I don't want to just keep going when I go out of posture since doing that would put that into my muscle memory and probably make it harder to refine later in life. What would you guys suggest?

I would suggest that you try a different teacher. I expect that you either need a better model for your movements (say someone who moves better or with more intention, or perhaps a teacher whose body looks like yours), or you need a different explanation or cuing of the movement.

I would also recommend that you spend as much time drilling single movements as possible. Then start alternating movements, then start doing both at once. But spend most of your time on single movements.

Shiro said:
Also, on the topic of learning, I got a ton of videos on Ebay for like 10 dollars. One of them was a bellydance video in with a lot of yoga and pilates videos. It's called "Flex Appeal." I watched about 10 minutes of it and the woman makes bellydance seem like such a sexual dance. However, some of the video looked okay. What do you guys think about it?

I personally liked that video and learned a lot from it...more than I learned from either "Magical Motion" or the Veena and Neena videos that were available then (although Veena and Neena have since come out with excellent videos). I always say that dancers should ignore Kathy (aside from her cuing), and watch Ansuya for form. The red-haired dancer (Louchia?) is a good model for movement, also.

If the video annoys you, invest 10 or 15 bucks in a different one. Neon's Love Potion and Jillina's Shape Up and Hip Out are both pretty good, IMO.

Kashmir · Sep 14, 2011

Shiro said:
My pelvis tends to revery backwards, especially with most hip movements. I can do slides without a problem, but others are hard not to do that. Usually I put my back out when I make mistakes with this type of movement. I really do have to be careful. Putting my back out leaves be bedridden for quite some time. I've started doing more yoga and pilates for this reason. I want to fix my issues with my back before continuing bellydance, but I also enjoy practicing.

Despite what you think, I do these movements when I am completely relaxed. I start tensing up only after I start going out of posture and it puts a toll on my back.

Bedridden is serious. I think you need to see someone like a sports physio to check if you have an underlying problem or "just" bad posture and tight muscles. (I have over "stretched" lower back ligaments from poor teaching decades ago - personally I need to stay fit with good automatic TA engagement to do many moves safely - and of course maintain my pelvis in neutral - even so I avoid Mayas as I can feel the crunch)

Pilates (done correctly) should strengthen the core - and help protect the back - but start with one-on-one sessions not a mixed class. Many yoga classes will not help with some flexibility issues - some might make things worse - boring physio stretches are more likely to work (for instance it is difficult to impossible to stretch teh hamstrings standing which many yoga classes still do - and this can cause more damage to the lower back - ie the hamstrings cannot stretch because they are contracting to hold you up but your lower back ligaments with all that upper body weight can stretch/tear leaving you with less support)

Shiro · Sep 14, 2011

I've injured my back 3 times. The muscles in my back are extremely weak due to that. For that reason, I use yoga and pilates in a modified way to help strengthen my back. My doctor wants me to continue doing this, she thinks bellydance will help me. Not to mention I have a very low self esteem, it helps.

I'd like to point out that I don't do classes, I have agoraphobia and I'm mentally disabled in some ways and cannot work, so I have no income at all. I live with my mom (I'm 18 so that isn't too surprising) and she already buys me food and pays for some of my medications when I need them, I'm not about to ask her to pay for a belly dance class, too. Besides, I literally live in the middle of nowhere, no car and no bus fare. I would love to take a class, if I got over my fear of being around people and open spaces, and if they weren't all in Seattle. I live 10 miles from anything.

I have gotten the lowest part of my back x rayed when I fell and hurt my foot, it also happened to hurt my back.. No problem there. My doctor wont xray the rest of my back until I lose about 70 pounds, because my weight does have a toll on my weak back. I cant lose weight from dieting alone, because my mom refuses to buy healthy food, so I've turned to exercising. I used to have a hard time doing even 15 minutes of it because I'd push myself until it hurt to move. I keep all of my exercise light, and I do have to be careful with every thing I do for right now, until I can get my back issues sorted.

The Flex appeal video is nice in the sense that the moves are broken down, and there is a lot to learn from it, but Kathy didn't learn bellydance for more than... Well I have. She doesn't do a lot of the moves right. For example, mayas, I've always been taught to keep my feet on the floor knees bent and using my obliques for the movement... She uses just her feet and legs for it. I also don't have 10-15 dollars to spend...

I get a new video once ever 3-5 months, or in this case, I got 11 for 10 dollars on ebay. That's my limit for right now

Kashmir · Sep 14, 2011

Shiro said:
I've injured my back 3 times. The muscles in my back are extremely weak due to that. For that reason, I use yoga and pilates in a modified way to help strengthen my back. My doctor wants me to continue doing this, she thinks bellydance will help me.

Yes, the pain will cause significant wasting in a matter of days. But any old exercise won't help. If you are only using videos I would suggest dropping the Yoga - the benefits really only occur if you already have good technique or a good teacher. Mat Pilates done correctly should help - it was part of my rehab (along with hydrotherapy, massage, stretching and TA activation) But - again correct technique is important - make sure you are using your abs not your legs for the movements. If you use your legs you get very little benefit.

Ditto belly dance - the benefit comes from generating the movement with the obliques, back muscles (QLs) and engaging your deep abs (TAs). You can belly dance pushing your hips around with your legs and you will get little if any benefit. In fact you could do more harm - which is what I suspect is happening in your case. Pretty hard to do over the internet!

Shiro said:
I cant lose weight from dieting alone, because my mom refuses to buy healthy food, so I've turned to exercising. I used to have a hard time doing even 15 minutes of it because I'd push myself until it hurt to move. I keep all of my exercise light, and I do have to be careful with every thing I do for right now, until I can get my back issues sorted.

Belly dance will tone - it isn't great for weight loss. Every time you push yourself into pain you are undoing any benefit. Muscle will spasm then stop firing and waste aaway. Be gentler on yourself.

For weight loss have you tried walking? Just plain walking - around the house if need be; up the stairs if you have any - but gently - fast enough to raise a sweat but without jarring your back, knees or hips.

Shiro said:
She doesn't do a lot of the moves right. For example, mayas, I've always been taught to keep my feet on the floor knees bent and using my obliques for the movement... She uses just her feet and legs for it.

If you have back issues I would suggest you avoid Mayas - and vertical down eights as well. Stick to hip rocks, hip drops/lifts, correctly executed twists, try gentle horizontal hip eights with the obliques (not the legs), horizontal orientale hip circles - not tilting circle or ommies. Add some travelling steps and shoulder work and you have more than enough to dance with

While there, other exercises to avoid:

toe touching/flop overs
bar hamstring stretches
straight leg lifts
V sits and double leg lifts

All of these may make your back worse.

da Sage · Sep 14, 2011

Shiro said:
I've injured my back 3 times. The muscles in my back are extremely weak due to that. For that reason, I use yoga and pilates in a modified way to help strengthen my back. My doctor wants me to continue doing this, she thinks bellydance will help me. Not to mention I have a very low self esteem, it helps.

I'd like to point out that I don't do classes, I have agoraphobia and I'm mentally disabled in some ways and cannot work, so I have no income at all. I live with my mom (I'm 18 so that isn't too surprising) and she already buys me food and pays for some of my medications when I need them, I'm not about to ask her to pay for a belly dance class, too. Besides, I literally live in the middle of nowhere, no car and no bus fare. I would love to take a class, if I got over my fear of being around people and open spaces, and if they weren't all in Seattle. I live 10 miles from anything.

I have gotten the lowest part of my back x rayed when I fell and hurt my foot, it also happened to hurt my back.. No problem there. My doctor wont xray the rest of my back until I lose about 70 pounds, because my weight does have a toll on my weak back. I cant lose weight from dieting alone, because my mom refuses to buy healthy food, so I've turned to exercising. I used to have a hard time doing even 15 minutes of it because I'd push myself until it hurt to move. I keep all of my exercise light, and I do have to be careful with every thing I do for right now, until I can get my back issues sorted.

The Flex appeal video is nice in the sense that the moves are broken down, and there is a lot to learn from it, but Kathy didn't learn bellydance for more than... Well I have. She doesn't do a lot of the moves right. For example, mayas, I've always been taught to keep my feet on the floor knees bent and using my obliques for the movement... She uses just her feet and legs for it. I also don't have 10-15 dollars to spend... I get a new video once ever 3-5 months, or in this case, I got 11 for 10 dollars on ebay. That's my limit for right now

It sounds like you're in a tough situation. Can you call a local public agency and ask about food stamps? If the food $$ is yours, you can ask your mom to spend some of it on healthy food like frozen vegetables and fruit. You can make her a short list each week, and slowly make that list longer as she gets used to it. Maybe you could ask for fresh apples and frozen corn to start out with, and after a couple of weeks ask for Shredded Wheat breakfast cereal too.

Another thing you can do is get healthy recipes from the internet, and ask your mom to buy the ingredients so that you can cook a dinner for the family (and keep the leftovers for yourself). Start with once a week, and look for "5 ingredients or less" entrees or one-dish meals. http://www.food.com/recipes/5-ingredients-or-less-one-dish-meal

I found the moves in the Leslie Sansone exercise videos I've used to be very simple and safe, and I lost weight when I was doing them regularly. My whole body felt stronger and more stable, too. You can get her DVDs used on Amazon for as little as $3, plus shipping. I know you might not be able to afford that right away, but it's something to think about for when you do have some extra cash.

Kashmir has great advice. Don't do things that make your back feel bad. :shok: Make sure you have good support from your doctors, get sessions with a physical therapist if you can (no, you probably DON'T have to go every week if you can discipline yourself to do the exercises and stretches at home, but a PT has the experience to give you the right exercises to do so your body can heal itself and get stronger).

And make sure you're linked in to whatever monetary and program assistance you can get from the state and community agencies. Those programs are there to help people, so don't be shy.

Shiro · Sep 15, 2011

da Sage said:
It sounds like you're in a tough situation. Can you call a local public agency and ask about food stamps? If the food $$ is yours, you can ask your mom to spend some of it on healthy food like frozen vegetables and fruit. You can make her a short list each week, and slowly make that list longer as she gets used to it. Maybe you could ask for fresh apples and frozen corn to start out with, and after a couple of weeks ask for Shredded Wheat breakfast cereal too.

Another thing you can do is get healthy recipes from the internet, and ask your mom to buy the ingredients so that you can cook a dinner for the family (and keep the leftovers for yourself). Start with once a week, and look for "5 ingredients or less" entrees or one-dish meals. 5 Ingredients Or Less One-Dish Meal Recipes - Food.com

I found the moves in the Leslie Sansone exercise videos I've used to be very simple and safe, and I lost weight when I was doing them regularly. My whole body felt stronger and more stable, too. You can get her DVDs used on Amazon for as little as $3, plus shipping. I know you might not be able to afford that right away, but it's something to think about for when you do have some extra cash.

Kashmir has great advice. Don't do things that make your back feel bad. :shok: Make sure you have good support from your doctors, get sessions with a physical therapist if you can (no, you probably DON'T have to go every week if you can discipline yourself to do the exercises and stretches at home, but a PT has the experience to give you the right exercises to do so your body can heal itself and get stronger).

And make sure you're linked in to whatever monetary and program assistance you can get from the state and community agencies. Those programs are there to help people, so don't be shy.

Thanks for the link! I can't apply for food stamps until next month, I had applied for them but they never responded, and then said I missed an appointment that they never notified me about! I received a letter stating that I can't reapply for food stamps until Oct. 11. I'll keep the link bookmarked, though and maybe I can get my mom to buy some of those ingredients and I can make some dinner for us. She actually surprised me and bought roasted chicken (she normally buys fried), some radishes and oranges.

I have actually applied for SSI assistance, because of the fact I can't work. They denied me twice and then old me I have to do an appointment. I think they are just as confused as I am! Haha! Luckily, if I do get it, I'm getting my back checked out and getting a new doctor. I've been looking into different programs for people with chronic back pain... I do like a lot of them, only the cost and distance from me is bad. One day soon, hopefully.

I do want to point out that I don't do things that make my back hurt, I used to. This was 2 years ago... I'd pretty much just push myself. I have a lot better control and I know what I need to do for my back, so if a movement in a video is too hard, I do modify it a bit. I don't like doing this too much, because I do want my movements to be "perfect" (at least in my mind).

Tomorrow I see my mental health therapist who also has back pain like I do. I'll talk to her and see if she can give me any advice... The weather here in Washington has not been to kind on my back lately! She'll likely recommend a couple yoga things to help stretch the muscles. It has helped me in the past, but the last time I did yoga was when I was pushing myself too hard!

Sherezade · Sep 15, 2011

I also have coordination problems, I also can't shimmy and make a hip circle at the same time. Sometimes even walking and moving my hips seems difficult. Another thing I find really hard is to move my hips and then add arm movements. It looks like my hips forget to go on moving when I lift my arms, can't explain better. So, I totally understand you, Shiro. Fortunately this doesn't cause me pains, I just feel awkward. Good luck for your next attempts.

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