Diploma-mania - spinoff from Princess's thread

Don't you hate it when you lose posts like that? I started doing mine in Word, just so I'd at least HAVE it if the forum flopped.

The college kid who fails a class on purpose because he's scared of completion -- yeah, it happens, I'm sure. I think there's actually a psychological disorder that manifests this way. The perception may exist, but is it the norm? I don't think so.

I wrote: I think I might have to disagree with you that we can't (or don't) have an agreed-upon criteria for determining the boundaries and expectations of this dance.

A'isha writes- This is one example. I have studied with Alexandra King and her whole philosophy is different from mine. She has a "We are Americans and we can do whatever we like approach to the dance. I have heard her say that..

Ok, now I follow you.

But I'm talking about developing a "Criteria for determining boundaries and expectations" and TALKING about dance intellectually.

One of the issues we have to address when talking about it (because it's the prelude to determining the actual boundaries of the dance) is the idea of "Ownership" of the dance.

We have at least a few different approaches to "ownership" of the dance in America.

One approach is Alexandra's, as you've quoted it. (I never studied with her directly, so I don't know, but I'll assume you're quoting her accurately.) What you said here is also said by many dance teachers, but let's call it Alexandra's approach: As Americans, we own the dance we do and can therefore add to it or subtract from it or modify it in any way we see fit.

(Although actually I'd like to challenge Alexandra and ask her if she TRULY means anything goes, or if there is a point at which she would stop considering it bellydance. It might be interesting to hear her thoughts on the matter, or Delilah's, who also seems to have a similar attitude.)

Another common approach is to say the Arabs own it, since we all know it as Arabian dance. Another approach is the person who says "Bellydance is only something done by Egyptians and therefore only Egyptians can claim "ownership." Sometimes we narrow the focus a different way and say only WOMEN can claim ownership.

Another approach seems to be closer to what you (A'isha) espouse and that's that it's owned by those who actively study and immerse themselves in the Arab culture, whether they are themselves Arab or not.

Why does "ownership" matter? Because "ownership" of the dance dictates who gets to set the boundaries of what is NOT bellydance, which is the precursor to setting the boundaries of what IS bellydance.


I'm curious -- when I mentioned that I was reading old Arabesques and seeing discussion, you warned me to read with a grain of salt (which I always do anyway). But what I was getting at was even back then, in the 70s and 80s, bellydance was being SERIOUSLY discussed as something more than just a mundane hobby or trivial pastime.

Example from today -- making greeting cards. Nobody is yet taking this seriously as an art form. Sure it's fun to do, but nobody is looking at it critically. It's a trivial pastime.


I wrote: I don't agree that "formalization" of instruction would in any way inhibit discussion about the differences between Fifi and Mona Said, for instance. ... Darci didn't dance like Gelsey any more than Fifi danced like Mona, but that doesn't inhibit discussion about it.

A. writes- Then give it a try.

A'isha, we HAVE been doing this. We've been doing this for the longest time, both here, on Bhuz, on Sausan's forum, on the MEDance list, on Gilded Serpent, etc. I think that's why those forums exist! (and to sell costumes)


You wrote:
In a different part of this forum, Andrea says that the Egyptian dancers have different styles. I disagree with that. They have the same style with different accentuations and different variations on movement, but the feeling and essence and style is readily recognizable as Egyptian.

What does "style" mean -- ? I mean, I keep harping on this because I really honestly think it's the root of all of our communication problems. We HAVE to define the terms we use, especially when they're vague ones, like "Style" because to me, "style" IS EXACTLY "different accentuations and different variations on movement." Obviously, that's not how you define it.

You wrote:
Only a small part of that is how they utilize movement. Do you see how elusive an intellectual description of that is?

I think it's only elusive because we haven't defined the word "style" and what is meant by movement utilization. I'm not saying these are RELATIVE terms, but that we are each using them to mean something different enough that it's keeping us from moving the discussion forward.


You wrote:
A. writes- The problem arises when the discussion becomes more important than the dance itself, and that seems to happen often in academic circles.

Okay, I'm not sure I've experienced this, other than the I Just want to make cardigans syndrome LOL.


Obviously I like discussion, but I would not want to be boxed into a situation where a professor gets to decide what is important to the discussion and what is not, a grade based on how well my thought mesh with his or hers, where discussion overtakes the life of the dance.

I'm not sure where this is coming from. Are we still talking about certification for teachers, or just discussing art in the academic venue?

There are established models for how a liberal arts education SHOULD be, but I won't try to pretend that those aren't followed by every professor, especially the bitter ones. I have never personally experienced any kind of pressure to just vomit back on a test the prof's ideas and beliefs and not my own. If this is the kind of the liberal arts "education" you've had, I don't blame you for being suspicious of it, or of instructor certification!!


You wrote:
A. writes- I hope you will talk to Morocco about how she has at least once been deemed as unqualified to teach in a university setting.

Per accreditation standards of the ACICS, I am no longer able to teach comp classes at the community college here because I didn't finish my masters. I could, however, teach at a similar college in Henderson, Kentucky. Doesn't mean I'm unqualified. Just means I didn't finish the degree and they need that degree to keep their accreditation. I'm cool with that. I can't teach dance for fitness at my university's fitness center without ACE or AFAA certification. I figure it's an insurance thing. Doesn't bother me.

SHOULD accrediting boards have final say over who gets to teach? That's a whole different debate, but frankly I'm in favor of it because I think it prevents people from wasting their money on diploma mills that don't really teach them anything.


You wrote:
I would also say that they can have the freedom to discuss outside of academia, and that is entirely different than having someone tell them what they will teach for the purposes of accreditation, etc.

Agreed. University politics is brutal.

BUT, if we're talking about dance teacher accreditation, I doubt that any ruling body would develop a syllabus and say "you must teach this." Dance Masters doesn't, and it's one of the biggest ones for dance schools. Rather they say, "teachers must have learned this" before granting whatever status they grant.


You wrote:
A. writes- I do not think anyone here is against discussion. I am personally against formalizing that into a process where the dance itself is regimented in the way it is taught.

I don't understand how we got to this point??? On the subject of teacher certification we moved to dance in academia, but I don't see any difference between having a set syllabus and the above. You teach a certain way, I'm sure, because I've read your articles. You say there are 10 fundamental movements in belly dance. Isn't this a regimented way of looking at it? See my confusion?

(I think a lot of this is because we don't know each other and can't see each other's classroom approach. Too bad we can't do virtual classroom visits!)

I wrote: I think - POSSIBLY - part of your resistance to the whole idea of dance in academia is because you have what I believe to be is sort of an incorrect image of how art in general is approached. I know you worked at a university and I certainly HOPE TO GOD that this is not how they're teaching the liberal arts there. If they are -- RUN AWAY from that!!!!

A. writes- What, because I do not see it in the same way that you do?

No, because you have said things like this:

having taken a class in how to analyze poetry in college, I disagree. There are very precise ways to do so, including such things as looking as rhythm, meter, denotation and connotation, personification, allegory, etc. Then there are the literary analysis styles that can be used, etc. Now, this academic process in the end is all very well and good, but it gives us nothing of the experience of the poem itself.

which is utterly and completely the 100% opposite approach to ANYTHING I've ever read or encountered that dealt with teaching the liberal arts.

What you're describing is very often how middle school and high school English teachers are trained to approach literature, but it's really completely irrelevant. It is however, easy to test. It's a formula. Great for 6th graders, but not at all relevant to real literature.

There was a symposium in Chicago in the 90s that I got to attend called "The Critical Fault" and it was a series of presentations on "just what's wrong with education in America." The keynote speaker talked about how the failures of how literature is taught. I'm sure some of you learned of something called "the critical fault" or "critical flaw"in character analysis -- how the hero had a "fault" that prevented him from accomplishing something or doing something. It's often how Shakespeare's heroes are taught to high school kids. It's a simplistic way of trying to address complex motivations, and it's bastardized from a concept in formal logic (and from old moralistic lit), but the state says the kids have to read Hamlet and teachers have to test them on it, so suddenly it's a law.

I'm reminded of the opening scene of "Dead Poet's Society" where they're reading the chapter on how to analyze a poem by giving it a numeric "score." Absolutely ridiculous, but often SOP for high schools across the nation. And then we wonder why kids, later adults, don't like to read.


I wrote:
I can only think of a handful of people who routinely teach university courses in Middle Eastern dance. Or at least, who is the pool we can draw from, of dancers who also teach credit courses in MEDance.

A. writes-The first person who comes to mind is Angelica Nemeth. She is a wonderful dancer if you look at her technique. etc, but she is very western in her approach to the dance and she looks like she has thought it too far through. there is no sense of the immediate or cultural essence in her belly dance.

I've only ever seen her do Baba Karam and Persian pop. I hate to beat the point, but can you name anyone else? I'm genuinely curious.


I wrote:
HOWEVER, researcher and folk dancer Daniela Ivanova (who we had the pleasure of hosting here) is writing a paper on how folk arts like folk dancing are sort of "dying out" in their native environments, and yet flourishing in the university setting. So it's funny to watch the pendulum swing the other way.


A. writes- Are we talking true folkloric dance here,

Not folkloric -- but FOLK dance. I'm going to assume there's a difference in how we're defining it. Like what certain ethnic groups do when somebody picks up a fiddle and an accordion. Only they're not doing it so much anymore. Daniela's specialty is Balkan and Bulgarian.


or more along the lines of what Ms. Nemeth is creating in her protrayals of Persian dance and theatre?

I'm no Persian expert. Can't speak for it. My teacher, however, does Central Asian dance and some Persian, but she does it in the style of Laurel Grey. From what she's told me, since the culture responsible for that "classical" Persian dance is dead, all "Classical" Persian dance done today is a recreation. Laurel says she is trying one approach, but admits there are other ways to approach these recreations.

Some of her work is lovely, but it does lack that true folk feeling. That to me, is not a flourishing folkloric dance in the academic envoronment, but insteadd a creation of something new while the old dies away.

I don't know what you mean, since I haven't seen it, but I would say 95% of "folk dance" my rec group does is not meant to be "staged" -- it's meant to be danced. As such, it's often pretty boring to watch. Very repetitive, not much variety. When we have to stage it, we try and move it around the stage a bit, or maybe weave the dancers in and out, but we don't mess around with the movements themselves or the stylizations. But of course, I've learned that just about every little village in Slovenia has their own version of "dance XYZ" so the question of authenticity or old forms is really almost impossible to address. Grandpa danced it like this, but dad did it this way, and Uncle Elam did it this way -- which is authentic? All of it! It's the dance of the folk.

Now the Tambouritzans (Duquesne University | Tamburitzans) do a great stage show without messing around with the dances and the original cultural stylizations. I don't know if they do anything original or not. Penn State has a folk dance performing troupe. It's picking up interest in universities with the whole emphasis on multiculturalism. Daniela's paper addresses that, and the tendency of young people today being more interested in their cultural heritage than even just one generation ago. I'll let you all know when she publishes it. I think it's finished.

A'isha Azar said:

Individual movement should really just sort of disappear on a lot of levels, if you know what I mean, and just be a part of a whole picture.

Click to expand...

YES YES YES!!!! I get this!!!!!!! I understand this. Can't really comment further, but I get at least THAT!

btw-- I'm gone this weekend, but I'd LOVE for this thread to be huge when I get back. I'm not trying to be antagonistic or anything, but I'm absolutely fascinated by the whole idea of how we teach dance, why we teach what we do, and how we teach MEANING in dance, so I just love discussions like this.

Dance, etc.

Dear Aziyade,
Some snippage below.


The college kid who fails a class on purpose because he's scared of completion -- yeah, it happens, I'm sure.

A. writes- I was rather surprised at how often it happened or how often students wished it would....



But I'm talking about developing a "Criteria for determining boundaries and expectations" and TALKING about dance intellectually.
One of the issues we have to address when talking about it (because it's the prelude to determining the actual boundaries of the dance) is the idea of "Ownership" of the dance.
We have at least a few different approaches to "ownership" of the dance in America.
Why does "ownership" matter? Because "ownership" of the dance dictates who gets to set the boundaries of what is NOT bellydance, which is the precursor to setting the boundaries of what IS bellydance.

A. writes- I agree.


I'm curious -- when I mentioned that I was reading old Arabesques and seeing discussion, you warned me to read with a grain of salt (which I always do anyway). But what I was getting at was even back then, in the 70s and 80s, bellydance was being SERIOUSLY discussed as something more than just a mundane hobby or trivial pastime.

A. writes- I was referring more to general info in the mags, but yes, this is an old discussion, and in the 34 years I have been dancing, we are no closer to an idea of generalized certification or academia for the dance than we were then, and yes, we were just as serious about it then as we are now.




I wrote: I don't agree that "formalization" of instruction would in any way inhibit discussion about the differences between Fifi and Mona Said, for instance. ... Darci didn't dance like Gelsey any more than Fifi danced like Mona, but that doesn't inhibit discussion about it.

A. writes- Then give it a try.

A'isha, we HAVE been doing this. We've been doing this for the longest time, both here, on Bhuz, on Sausan's forum, on the MEDance list, on Gilded Serpent, etc. I think that's why those forums exist! (and to sell costumes)

A. writes- But, we have not been doing it to the satisfaction of coming to a general agreement, or toward the end result of certification or setting up guidelines to make it happen, which would immediately narrow what enters into that discussion.


You wrote:
In a different part of this forum, Andrea says that the Egyptian dancers have different styles. I disagree with that. They have the same style with different accentuations and different variations on movement, but the feeling and essence and style is readily recognizable as Egyptian.
What does "style" mean -- ? I mean, I keep harping on this because I really honestly think it's the root of all of our communication problems. We HAVE to define the terms we use, especially when they're vague ones, like "Style" because to me, "style" IS EXACTLY "different accentuations and different variations on movement." Obviously, that's not how you define it.

A. writes- Style means the underlying essence and culture and spirit of the dance; the feeling of it rather than just the movements of it, or the costume of it, (as well as those accentuations and variations on movement).

You wrote:
Only a small part of that is how they utilize movement. Do you see how elusive an intellectual description of that is?

I think it's only elusive because we haven't defined the word "style" and what is meant by movement utilization. I'm not saying these are RELATIVE terms, but that we are each using them to mean something different enough that it's keeping us from moving the discussion forward.

A. writes- I disagree because there is a part of that whole style thing that must be witnessed in order for people to truly get it....even then many miss it. No discussion, no intellectual pursuit, no analysis, will ever capture that elusive thing.


You wrote:
A. writes- The problem arises when the discussion becomes more important than the dance itself, and that seems to happen often in academic circles.

Okay, I'm not sure I've experienced this, other than the I Just want to make cardigans syndrome LOL.

A. writes- Really? You have not seen this on forums? I have seen it many times.


Obviously I like discussion, but I would not want to be boxed into a situation where a professor gets to decide what is important to the discussion and what is not, a grade based on how well my thought mesh with his or hers, where discussion overtakes the life of the dance.

I'm not sure where this is coming from. Are we still talking about certification for teachers, or just discussing art in the academic venue?

A, writes- It actually applies to either, because in creating a certification program, we also would need to create a criteria that is based on the same principles of pass and fail, what is important and not important, what the people who decide the criteria think and how well we are able to parrot that back at them.

There are established models for how a liberal arts education SHOULD be, but I won't try to pretend that those aren't followed by every professor, especially the bitter ones. I have never personally experienced any kind of pressure to just vomit back on a test the prof's ideas and beliefs and not my own. If this is the kind of the liberal arts "education" you've had, I don't blame you for being suspicious of it, or of instructor certification!!

A, writes- Then you are VERY lucky. I have seen professors who want nothing more, and if you try to break away from what THEY think is so... you fail to meet their criteria and it shows in your grade. I have also met professors who are so sublime that they ought to be teaching in heaven... guess which group is the largest in my experience?


You wrote:
A. writes- I hope you will talk to Morocco about how she has at least once been deemed as unqualified to teach in a university setting.

Per accreditation standards of the ACICS, I am no longer able to teach comp classes at the community college here because I didn't finish my masters. I could, however, teach at a similar college in Henderson, Kentucky. Doesn't mean I'm unqualified. Just means I didn't finish the degree and they need that degree to keep their accreditation. I'm cool with that. I can't teach dance for fitness at my university's fitness center without ACE or AFAA certification. I figure it's an insurance thing. Doesn't bother me.SHOULD accrediting boards have final say over who gets to teach? That's a whole different debate, but frankly I'm in favor of it because I think it prevents people from wasting their money on diploma mills that don't really teach them anything.


You wrote:
I would also say that they can have the freedom to discuss outside of academia, and that is entirely different than having someone tell them what they will teach for the purposes of accreditation, etc.

Agreed. University politics is brutal.

BUT, if we're talking about dance teacher accreditation, I doubt that any ruling body would develop a syllabus and say "you must teach this." Dance Masters doesn't, and it's one of the biggest ones for dance schools. Rather they say, "teachers must have learned this" before granting whatever status they grant.

A. writes- Bet me!!! there is always someone in the heirarchy of academics/ dance/ tiddly winks who wants to have control of any situation. And again, what I would think a teacher or student must learn would be very different from what Suhaila or Alexandra thinks they must learn... from the very philosophy of our approaches on outward to movement itself.


You wrote:
A. writes- I do not think anyone here is against discussion. I am personally against formalizing that into a process where the dance itself is regimented in the way it is taught.

I don't understand how we got to this point??? On the subject of teacher certification we moved to dance in academia, but I don't see any difference between having a set syllabus and the above. You teach a certain way, I'm sure, because I've read your articles. You say there are 10 fundamental movements in belly dance. Isn't this a regimented way of looking at it? See my confusion?

A. writes- The difference is that I do not see my way of teaching as THE way of teaching. It is A way of approaching the dance and I think that many, many other instructors have ways of teaching that have just as much value. It is not "formal", in that "this is the way I expect anyone else to do it". It is not regimented in that I am very clear that other instructors can offer something of great value to their students and do it completely differently than I do and even have a different list of basic movements. I do not need to certify people in my way of teaching, and I do teach people to teach. I would not want to certify or teach with specific goals in mind because in truth, the goals, even in just Egyptian belly dance, are not that specific. Hence we do have the different approaches of Soheir, Dina, Fifi, all in order to get to the same dance. In the end, it is not possible to certify one in the most important of ingredients, essence, soul, spirit cultural elements.

(I think a lot of this is because we don't know each other and can't see each other's classroom approach. Too bad we can't do virtual classroom
visits!)[/QUOTE]

A. writes- You could be right!
Regards,
A'isha

Continued

Dear Aziyade,
I COULD go ahead and pull out my university textbooks on poetry and how to analyze it, if that would satisfy you that this stuff is taught at university level. It is NOT 6th grade material at all, but taught regularly in college English classes. Let me know if you need a citation or two in order to believe that.

Re about individual dance movement sort of disappearing, etc: I am SO happy that made sense. I often feel at a loss discussing movement without having my actual body doing the talking.
Regards,
A'isha

In terms of needing a dancer certification, I just compare the idea to my nursing profession. I have a degree, license and additional certifications in nursing. I must complete 24 hours of continuing education(which is submitted to the OBN) to continue to practice nursing(remain employed and collecting a check)
When I graduated from my nursing program I recieved a degree, which verified that I adequately learned the curriculum. That did not mean I could be employed because I lacked the license. So anyone can graduate from nursing program, but that still does not make them a nurse, one would just have a degree.

In bellydance, I can enroll in a specific certification program and complete the necessary requirements. Does that make me a bellydancer...maybe maybe not. I would just have a certification.

Nursing: I need the degree in order to sit for the license examination. Once I passed the test I was legally able to practice nursing. That does not mean I'm a 'good' nurse just minimally competent to be employed.

Bellydance:The certification will only have meaning if I continue to learn and explore areas of this art form. It's importance is limited in certain circles.i.e other dancers, but more importantly, it suggests that I understand a specific method of dance(Hadia's, Suhaila's etc). It's not a guarantee that I would command a good salary or respect outside the community.

Nursing: Let's face it, society needs nurses, competent professionals that provide safe care. State boards of nursing are required to set standards of care(SOC) and discipline it's members when those standards are violated.

Bellydance: As much as we love bellydance and devote a significant amount of emotional and financial investment...society does not need bellydancers. I know you may hate to hear it, but it's true. What society needs is an artistic community free from a certain level of restriction placed on it by an outside board of governors. The creative essence of this dance would be lost... it cannot be taught. It has to be discovered.

I'm not dismissing the idea of belly dance certification, just highlighting some realities. For some people this is a great way continue the dance for others, it's just a piece of paper. As a teacher,I have discovered there is a difference between what is taught and the student actually learns and incorporates. If a certification would guarantee higher wages and benefits for nightclub dancers, or equitable respect with other dance forms or even recognition amongst peers, then I would be for it 100%. But it doesn't(not yet anyway) so for me ..why bother. I'll just continue to enjoy the dance in the meantime.
Yasmine

certification, etc.

Yasmine Bint Al Nubia said:

In terms of needing a dancer certification, I just compare the idea to my nursing profession. I have a degree, license and additional certifications in nursing. I must complete 24 hours of continuing education(which is submitted to the OBN) to continue to practice nursing(remain employed and collecting a check)
When I graduated from my nursing program I recieved a degree, which verified that I adequately learned the curriculum. That did not mean I could be employed because I lacked the license. So anyone can graduate from nursing program, but that still does not make them a nurse, one would just have a degree.

In bellydance, I can enroll in a specific certification program and complete the necessary requirements. Does that make me a bellydancer...maybe maybe not. I would just have a certification.

Nursing: I need the degree in order to sit for the license examination. Once I passed the test I was legally able to practice nursing. That does not mean I'm a 'good' nurse just minimally competent to be employed.

Bellydance:The certification will only have meaning if I continue to learn and explore areas of this art form. It's importance is limited in certain circles.i.e other dancers, but more importantly, it suggests that I understand a specific method of dance(Hadia's, Suhaila's etc). It's not a guarantee that I would command a good salary or respect outside the community.

Nursing: Let's face it, society needs nurses, competent professionals that provide safe care. State boards of nursing are required to set standards of care(SOC) and discipline it's members when those standards are violated.

Bellydance: As much as we love bellydance and devote a significant amount of emotional and financial investment...society does not need bellydancers. I know you may hate to hear it, but it's true. What society needs is an artistic community free from a certain level of restriction placed on it by an outside board of governors. The creative essence of this dance would be lost... it cannot be taught. It has to be discovered.

I'm not dismissing the idea of belly dance certification, just highlighting some realities. For some people this is a great way continue the dance for others, it's just a piece of paper. As a teacher,I have discovered there is a difference between what is taught and the student actually learns and incorporates. If a certification would guarantee higher wages and benefits for nightclub dancers, or equitable respect with other dance forms or even recognition amongst peers, then I would be for it 100%. But it doesn't(not yet anyway) so for me ..why bother. I'll just continue to enjoy the dance in the meantime.
Yasmine

Click to expand...

Dear Yasmine,
As usual, you come in with sensible points of discussion. Your analogy is really great. The only thing that I might disagree on is that no matter how much they paid me, I would still not support any system where I have a certain amount of fear about the dance becoming homogenized.
Regards,
A'isha

A'isha Azar said:

Okay, let's really LOOK at hip circle. This may sound pretty esoteric or far fetched, because it is hard for me to explain it with words... only my body can really say it. It really has very little that is "concrete" about it in the long run. When one becomes an authentic belly dancer on the cultural level, there sort of is no such thing as a "hip circle" other than as a very vaguely defined way in which to move one's body to bring up certain things in the music. The dance is not really about that hip circle, but instead movement is just one vehicle for expressing what the music says to the dance and how the dancer puts all of the elements together to make it BE the dance instead of a hip circle or a movement as such. Individual movement should really just sort of disappear on a lot of levels, if you know what I mean, and just be a part of a whole picture. Many westerners have become VERY hung up on the perfection of movement, to the detriment of every other aspect of the dance. This has happened through the intellectualization of the dance process.

Click to expand...

Jesus. *head explodes*

No, really, I'll get back to this thread in a couple years. I was going to make some catty remarks about people who enroll in high-level dance classes without enough work in the lower levels, and how judiciously awarding certificates and conducting tests might discourage that, but this conversation is on a whole different plane...

Why am I always out of liquor when I really need some?

Dance etc

da Sage said:

Jesus. *head explodes*

No, really, I'll get back to this thread in a couple years. I was going to make some catty remarks about people who enroll in high-level dance classes without enough work in the lower levels, and how judiciously awarding certificates and conducting tests might discourage that, but this conversation is on a whole different plane...

Why am I always out of liquor when I really need some?

Click to expand...

Dear daSage,
.... I guess I never thought of my opinions about the nature of movement in belly dance to be the direct cause of need for divine intervention!!
Regards,
A'isha

levels

Dear Aziyade,

If your students want levels and diplomas for achieving same, I guess there is no harm in creating them, the way my piano teacher did when I was a kid. We Westerners are trained to work for good grades, teacher/boss approval, diplomas, etc. We feel safer being judged this way, as opposed to developing and relying on own own judgment.

But you might point out to them that these are fun but really only symbolic, less rigorous than but similar perhaps to the colored belts in karate (Great story of a Westerner who went to study with karate master in Japan who kept asking "But when will I get the black belt?" Teacher finally just handed him one and said, "if this is all you came for, take it and leave now." )

In my opinion what dancers need to develop is their own ability to judge their own levels and what they need and want to improve. Layering shimmies? Finger cymbals? Karsilama? Folkloric? Deeper appreciation of the music, rhythms, culture? Better stage presence? More complex choreography? Time to choose and perfect their own drum solo? What style do they gravitate towards?

It's harder, but much more real.

My two cents.

P.S. Western hierarchical thinking is not only behind seeking graded levels of achievement but also behind emphasizing technique and the physical and also breaking dance down into moves, combos, drills, etc. in my opinion.

Cathy

A'isha Azar said:

Dear daSage,
.... I guess I never thought of my opinions about the nature of movement in belly dance to be the direct cause of need for divine intervention!!
Regards,
A'isha

Click to expand...

I'm not seeking divine intervention, so much as enlightenment. Perhaps I should have said Buddha!:lol:

Like I said, I'll be back later...maybe certain chemicals will help me "break on through" on this.

Dance, etc.

Dear da Sage,
One of the most frustrating things for me in just talking about dance is that I can not use my body to get what often needs to be danced in order to be recognized. If we were physically in the same room and I could demonstrate, you would see immediately what I mean!!
Regards,
A'isha

Hi all,

Well, I have just been hired by my local university to teach bellydance for credit. I am excited about it, but consider it exactly the same as when I teach bellydance in general. If anyone has any suggestions or ideas, let me know. I tend not to be the Westernized type of dancer, and a lot of my education is teaching people to improvise and such.

Brea said:

Hi all,

Well, I have just been hired by my local university to teach bellydance for credit. I am excited about it, but consider it exactly the same as when I teach bellydance in general. If anyone has any suggestions or ideas, let me know. I tend not to be the Westernized type of dancer, and a lot of my education is teaching people to improvise and such.

Click to expand...

You should definitely talk to Cassandra, as she's been teaching a similar course at the U of M for some time. Plus, you already know her.

Congratulations, where will you be teaching?

A'isha Azar said:

Dear da Sage,
One of the most frustrating things for me in just talking about dance is that I can not use my body to get what often needs to be danced in order to be recognized. If we were physically in the same room and I could demonstrate, you would see immediately what I mean!!
Regards,
A'isha

Click to expand...

At some point we must arrange this.:dance:

Dance, etc.

Dear da Sage,
Let me know if you go West and I will let you know if I come East!
Regards,
A'isha

Hi da Sage,

Oh yes! I had forgotten about Cassandra's U of M class. I'll email her. I'll be teaching at UWS in Superior.

Accreditation

Dear Brea,
Congratulations!! On what are they basing the accreditation, and what qualifications do those who are accrediting the class have to decide what elements the class should have, etc.? I have taught belly dance at two different colleges and neither accredited the class. The classes could not be for credit because there was no basis on which to accredit them, not only because there was no standard teaching procedure as far as what should be learned but also because I do not have a degree that stands as a qualification for teaching it. On what basis did you receive accreditation for your course and where can we read your syllabus?

Dear da Sage,
Do you know at which U of M Cassandra teaches an accredited class in belly dance, or Middle Eastern dance? I did not find her listed as on the dance program staff at U of M in Twin cities. I wanted to look at her class syllabus and could nor find her name listed there.

Regards to you both,
A'isha

Brea? Is the class you are teaching being offered through the P.E. Dept or through the same dept that offers theatre and other forms of dance. Furthermore, requirements for instructors in the P.E. Dept tend to be more relaxed than most other depts. Since it if being offered for credit, I'd say its not being offered as a free university class. Have fun and I'd say look at the length of the class, figure out the main things you want to cover and break it down that way.