Diploma-mania - spinoff from Princess's thread

A'isha Azar said:

Dear DaSage,



A'isha writes- I would not know if her approach to teaching is wrong, but what I see in video as far as how she presents Tunisian on stage, the feel is very westernized. If you do not believe this, go and LOOK at some videos of Tunisians presenting the dance. As I stated in an earlier post, however, that might be what Cassandra is aiming for and she may say so in her programs or announcing or in some other way.

I get a little tired of always being the bad guy just because I dare to say something critical of our icons. I have been at this too long to look at anyone through rose colored glasses. I learned a long time ago in this dance that all of us, including the most famous of us, is not always right on. I think you should at least compare what is being done to the real thing before deciding I have grudge against this or that person. Many times, I actually love the dancer in question, but that does not make me blind.

Regards,
A'isha

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A'isha,

I am not one of the Cassandra-worshippers who loves everything she does. There are things she does that I like a lot, and other things that I'm not so excited about. You can accuse me of constantly looking for positives, but please don't imagine that I'm blind to other's flaws or failures.

I'm just calling it like I see it, and it's fair for you to tell me that I am wrong. Perhaps a compare/contrast presentation would be better...if Cassandra's Tunisian choreography (performed by Jawaahir) has the wrong essence, show me a group choreography that has the right essence. That might help me (and others) understand where you are coming from.

I hope you didn't decide that Cassandra's approach was wrong based on the same YouTube video of Tunisian dancing I found. The focus was so bad, and the view so distant, all you could see was the Western/stage floor patterning, and a few of the steps! You could not see the subtleties of the movements, or the faces of the dancers sharing the joy of dancing with one another. How can you judge something you can't even see properly?

The video is so poor, I bet you can't even pick out my teacher. I'll give you a hint....she's the "pretty maid" that's seven months pregnant.

YouTube - Tunisian Women's Dance, www.jawaahir.org

Dance etc.

Dear Aziyade,

Aziyade said:

I have to laugh -- that's the one my source claimed was "for tourists" and bad dancing. It's from a dinner theatre there. I think there are more clips from that theatre on that site. Kalypso is just the guy who posted the video.

A'isha writes- Let me ask you this.... were any of those groups Tunisian because the one I pointed out certainly looked the most authentic. That is what the dance looks like far more than those other clips. Look at your A'isha Ali video. If your guide considered that bad dancing, did he say why? My guess would be because of the lady showing the leg, who in fact hardly danced at all... Din you notice the dancer on the clip? And yes, I sure that you DID get a good laugh out of it.


Staged folk dance, in order to draw a paying crowd, HAS to be choreographed and flashy. Real folk dance is NOT flashy, the floor patterns may not be choreographed, and it's NOT meant to be watched -- it's meant to be participated in. To make it stage-worthy it MUST change. I can point you to any number of professional folk dance troupes who will say the same thing.

A'isha writes- It may have to change, but does not have to be flashy, regimented etc. It can be presented much more naturally and deeply appreciated if presented well. While folkoric dance is meant to be danced, it is also meant to be appreciated by those who are simply watching as well, and we can arrange things for stage and still preserve the natural feel of them.

If you have not seen the Tambouritzans perform, you MUST -- although you'd probably have a heart attack by what they do. LOL. (Technically they're not a professional troupe, though, since they're college kids.) Also, Ahmet Luleci's "Collage" dance troupe in Boston draws rave reviews from Turkish people, many of whom say they admire his innovations.

A'isha writes- And if innovation is done in the right spirit, I admire it as well. Do not assume that the Middle Eastern people are not innovating their dances. I have proof of innovation in Tunisian from the 1970s to the late 1990s in the videos that I have here at home. We often seem to assume that whatever we do here is somehow innovative, as if the natives do not innovate.

While you might be able to get away with a "performance" of folk dance at a hafla, the minute you start asking people to pay money to view it they're going to expect drama and THEATRE.

A'isha writes- Do you think I do not know that? I worked in theatre for 7 years, outside the realm of Middle Eastern dance, and learned a LOT. I also am very aware that the Middle Easterner approaches theatrical presentation differently than the westerner for the most part.

We don't pay to watch kids social dance, and nobody around here is going to pay the old German couples to polka around the church. If we want to SELL a show of German folk dance, it has to be visual varied and appealing. That means color and texture in the costuming, interesting stage and floor patterns, and variance in what is almost always a repetitive dance.

A'isha writes- I agree that the dance has to be made more colorful, but that can be done in a very Middle Eastern way.



But a lot of folk dance IS choreographed -- a lot of British/Celtic couples dances have "forms" that you dance through, and a WHOLE lot of American and English country dancing has set forms (floor patterns you walk through). I can name dozens, probably a hundred or so that WE know here, that have set choreography (as far as footwork).

A'isha writes- Gee, you seem to think I am far more ignorant than I actually am... Ali Pasa of Greece, some Debkes, some Syrtos, etc, all are choreographed, as well as dances all over the world, Tunisian presented in its natural state is not, and can still look very good on stage.

Staged folk dance cannot equal folk dance done in church, at home, at grandma's bbq, at the town fish festival, or in the pub after the big game. THAT's where real folk dance is done: -- not watched.

A'isha writes- I am not sure why you are so stuck on this. I have never said that folkloric dance does not need to be staged... only that they can be staged with Middle Eastern sensibilities as opposed to western ones. Check out the differences in the work of Reda, or that other Egyptian folklore troupe and Cassandra... Can you see a difference, or do you think it is the same? This is not a slam at Cassandra, by the way, I am only trying to see if you understand that there IS a difference. I am also wondering why it should be offensive for me to point it out.

I'm curious -- you've told us that Saudi dance is not choreographed, and yet you perform it as a choreography. How is this different from what Cassandra does with her troupe?

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A'isha writes-.... What makes you think I perform it as a choregraphy? Why don't you ask Sedonia about that, or Mark Balahadia, or Marya? They have all seen me present the dance. And if I did do it as a choreography I would take my cues from the natives around here and from what I have seen presented in video, as I do all the dances I or my dance company present. Many times, the dance is a sort of follow along type of dance, so that people just might be doing the same thing at the same time. That does not mean it was even choreographed that way, but that it happens.

Regards,
A'isha

Dance, etc.

da Sage said:

A'isha,

I am not one of the Cassandra-worshippers who loves everything she does. There are things she does that I like a lot, and other things that I'm not so excited about. You can accuse me of constantly looking for positives, but please don't imagine that I'm blind to other's flaws or failures.

I'm just calling it like I see it, and it's fair for you to tell me that I am wrong. Perhaps a compare/contrast presentation would be better...if Cassandra's Tunisian choreography (performed by Jawaahir) has the wrong essence, show me a group choreography that has the right essence. That might help me (and others) understand where you are coming from.

I hope you didn't decide that Cassandra's approach was wrong based on the same YouTube video of Tunisian dancing I found. The focus was so bad, and the view so distant, all you could see was the Western/stage floor patterning, and a few of the steps! You could not see the subtleties of the movements, or the faces of the dancers sharing the joy of dancing with one another. How can you judge something you can't even see properly?

The video is so poor, I bet you can't even pick out my teacher. I'll give you a hint....she's the "pretty maid" that's seven months pregnant.

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Dear daSage,
I did not say her approach was "wrong". I said that her approach was western and did not have Tunisian essence. This is not even the same thing as wrong, unless she is misleading people, which I sincerely doubt she would.And perhaps the problem lies in the words, "Group choreography". I would suggest you go to videos that are danced by Tunisians. Western floor patterns are part of what makes something look western as opposed to Middle Eastern. A'isha Ali has some authentic dance on her videos, but I am not sure where else to send you. I do not know the name of the video that I have, because it was sent to me by an Arab friend who just wrote something like "Arabian Dance" on the video cover. Jennet identified the singer for me and the girls are typical of what she has seen over there for modern Tunisian. There are some subtle difference from Aisha Ali's dancers.
I hate to keep harping on this, but the feeling and essence of the dance are not based in movement only, but a host of other things, including the approach to the dance. I can understand having trouble with this, because a lot of times I can't get it really, really right with my own dancers. I have trouble capturing it in some dances as well. I will never be able to really do good Lebanese belly dance, for example. I can identify it, see its essence, understand its feeling, but not make it happen on me. I also do not perform any of the Persian classical dances. I studied for awhile and realized that I just do not have IT. I would not be insulted if anyone said so, either, because they would be telling the truth! The best I could do in these dances is Do-Wop!
Regards,
A'isha

I am mostly withdrawing from this thread, but I can factually add that A'isha doesn't teach or perform Saudi dance as choreography. At least not that I have seen.

If Aziyade was referring to the youtube clip of A'isha's dance that I posted, that was not choreographed. A'isha asked us to doo-wop with her and we had no idea what she was going to do. We didn't even have a plan for the staging. We were just following along as best we could.

A'isha Azar said:

Dear Aziyade,



A'isha writes-.... What makes you think I perform it as a choregraphy? Why don't you ask Sedonia about that, or Mark Balahadia, or Marya? They have all seen me present the dance. And if I did do it as a choreography I would take my cues from the natives around here and from what I have seen presented in video, as I do all the dances I or my dance company present. Many times, the dance is a sort of follow along type of dance, so that people just might be doing the same thing at the same time. That does not mean it was even choreographed that way, but that it happens.

Regards,
A'isha

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Dance, etc.

sedoniaraqs said:

I am mostly withdrawing from this thread, but I can factually add that A'isha doesn't teach or perform Saudi dance as choreography. At least not that I have seen.

If Aziyade was referring to the youtube clip of A'isha's dance that I posted, that was not choreographed. A'isha asked us to doo-wop with her and we had no idea what she was going to do. We didn't even have a plan for the staging. We were just following along as best we could.

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Dear Sedonia,
I wish I was smart enpugh to withdraw/abstain/shut up!!!! The closest I usually come to any kind of choreography when I teach or dance Samri is usually a very loose plan. I think I did it differently a time or two when I was working with beginners for an event where amateurs were allowed to dance.
I thought you and Teddy very aptly grasped the concepts in class and were able to do a great job with being thrown on stage. Yhe thing is, it IS after all, a communal dance!
Regards,
A'isha

Two issues - Cassandra as a common example, and Belly dance classes not right/college

A'isha Azar said:

Dear daSage,
I did not say her approach was "wrong". I said that her approach was western and did not have Tunisian essence. This is not even the same thing as wrong, unless she is misleading people, which I sincerely doubt she would.And perhaps the problem lies in the words, "Group choreography". I would suggest you go to videos that are danced by Tunisians. Western floor patterns are part of what makes something look western as opposed to Middle Eastern. A'isha Ali has some authentic dance on her videos, but I am not sure where else to send you. I do not know the name of the video that I have, because it was sent to me by an Arab friend who just wrote something like "Arabian Dance" on the video cover. Jennet identified the singer for me and the girls are typical of what she has seen over there for modern Tunisian. There are some subtle difference from Aisha Ali's dancers.
I hate to keep harping on this, but the feeling and essence of the dance are not based in movement only, but a host of other things, including the approach to the dance. I can understand having trouble with this, because a lot of times I can't get it really, really right with my own dancers. I have trouble capturing it in some dances as well. I will never be able to really do good Lebanese belly dance, for example. I can identify it, see its essence, understand its feeling, but not make it happen on me. I also do not perform any of the Persian classical dances. I studied for awhile and realized that I just do not have IT. I would not be insulted if anyone said so, either, because they would be telling the truth! The best I could do in these dances is Do-Wop!
Regards,
A'isha

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A'isha,

The issue may indeed be reason #1 that: she is getting SO CLOSE to what you consider correct (in movement, let's say), that the minor difference (in essence, because of the Western staging) drives you bonkers (causes you to focus intensely on her work), and not #2 at all.

But it does seem to me that you use Cassandra's work as an example of Eastern movement, Western essence more than any other example (except maybe Suhaila, but I think EVERYONE's in agreement that Suhaila's work is chock-full of Western essence, practically across the board). I don't think Cassandra is unusual in her choice of Western staging, as compared to artists across the country and Europe.

Either my perception of how often you use Cassandra to illustrate your points is skewed, or my understanding of why she is consistently one of your favorite examples is lacking.

You even managed to work her very fuzzy Tunisian video into an argument against teaching bellydance* as a for-credit college course - somehow this would be too much western influence?

If all my college courses which took a western, modern, liberal or otherwise biased approach to the subject matter were eliminated, I'd have had no classes on history at all! Never mind literature, religion, philosophy, anthropology, theater, dance...let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, here. I feel I got quite a bit out of the week and a half we spent on Hula in my dance class, but using your logic, Hula should only be taught in Ys, rec centers, and dedicated halaus.

College is supposed to be a place where minds are broadened, sharpened, and exposed to new things. In my opinion, a slight Western flavour does not seriously damage the value of belly dance* in a college setting.

*or other middle eastern dances

The whole discussion on essence and such brings to mind is the idea that someone could offer a survey of belly dance which would explore say essential egyptian, or lebanese or turkish, or american caberet, where they would watch videos and discuss the differences, etc. This would be much like a survey of world music class my daughter took at college. Where P.E. courses tend to be more movement oriented so they would just learn the basic movements common to all types of belly dance for a basic vocabulary. The two courses would have two different foci

Dance

da Sage said:

A'isha,

The issue may indeed be reason #1 that: she is getting SO CLOSE to what you consider correct (in movement, let's say), that the minor difference (in essence, because of the Western staging) drives you bonkers (causes you to focus intensely on her work), and not #2 at all.

But it does seem to me that you use Cassandra's work as an example of Eastern movement, Western essence more than any other example (except maybe Suhaila, but I think EVERYONE's in agreement that Suhaila's work is chock-full of Western essence, practically across the board). I don't think Cassandra is unusual in her choice of Western staging, as compared to artists across the country and Europe.

Either my perception of how often you use Cassandra to illustrate your points is skewed, or my understanding of why she is consistently one of your favorite examples is lacking.

You even managed to work her very fuzzy Tunisian video into an argument against teaching bellydance* as a for-credit college course - somehow this would be too much western influence?

If all my college courses which took a western, modern, liberal or otherwise biased approach to the subject matter were eliminated, I'd have had no classes on history at all! Never mind literature, religion, philosophy, anthropology, theater, dance...let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, here. I feel I got quite a bit out of the week and a half we spent on Hula in my dance class, but using your logic, Hula should only be taught in Ys, rec centers, and dedicated halaus.

College is supposed to be a place where minds are broadened, sharpened, and exposed to new things. In my opinion, a slight Western flavour does not seriously damage the value of belly dance* in a college setting.

*or other middle eastern dances

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Dear da Sage,
Since you seem to want to insist that I am picking on Cassandra, I am not sure what I can do to change your mind. A "slight western flavor" does indeed in the end stand the chance of completely obliterating what ethnic belly dance is, not because of the first layer of "western flavor", but because of the continued watering down of the dance through generations continuing to "westernize" it further, until it becomes unrecognizable as belly dance at all. Those who first began the process way back when sort of gave the Middle Eastern dance community permission to do whatever they wanted by not taking the responsibility to clarify what they were doing, and not doing. They might be pretty shocked to see what is now referred to as "belly dance".
At times, I am pretty impressed with what innovations have come about, and Cassandra is usually a case in point. Mostly I am not. Regardless, as I said before, since we can not even agree on what "belly dance" means, how can we possibly teach it at the university level?
I am honestly not sure what people think could be done better at university or through certification that is not already being done by quality teacher anyway. Having gone to college, I can say that there are both good and bad instructors there, just like anywhere else. The degree or certificate does not necessarily mean that the person will be good at what they do, so in the end, what is the point of all the regulation that the dance would have to try to survive through?


Dear Teela,
I make it a point as much as possible to bring videos of natives doing what they do whenever I teach a workshop, even in Egyptian belly dance. We have specific video nights in my regular classes as well. I think the more exposure we have to authentic ethnic dancing of all kinds, the better off we all are if we are claiming to perform authentic ethnic dances.

Regards,
A'isha

A'isha Azar said:

Dear da Sage,
Since you seem to want to insist that I am picking on Cassandra, I am not sure what I can do to change your mind.

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I have simply been honest about how I perceive your posts over time on this forum, and I don't feel I was "insisting" on anything...in fact I was hoping you would give me an alternate explanation for my observations.

A'isha Azar said:

A "slight western flavor" does indeed in the end stand the chance of completely obliterating what ethnic belly dance is, not because of the first layer of "western flavor", but because of the continued watering down of the dance through generations continuing to "westernize" it further, until it becomes unrecognizable as belly dance at all. Those who first began the process way back when sort of gave the Middle Eastern dance community permission to do whatever they wanted by not taking the responsibility to clarify what they were doing, and not doing. They might be pretty shocked to see what is now referred to as "belly dance".

Click to expand...

This argument could be made for any ethnic/cultural dance form, with either western or modern flavor. But the leaders and master teachers in this dance have a strong tradition of research and study in the M.E. I think increased university involvement would only encourage such research.

More importantly, keeping bellydance and other middle eastern dances out of formalized higher education will not keep this "cultural drift" from happening. If it happens, it happens everywhere. And I think college classes will NOT speed up the process.

A'isha Azar said:

Regardless, as I said before, since we can not even agree on what "belly dance" means, how can we possibly teach it at the university level?

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Many subjects have fuzzy edges. Gay/Lesbian studies (now does this include transgender??, etc), religion, psychology, ethics, philosophy, art, theater...most "intro to" courses start with a statement of what the subject is, what it isn't, and what's debatable. Logically, the teacher would integrate the debate into the class.

A'isha Azar said:

I am honestly not sure what people think could be done better at university or through certification that is not already being done by quality teacher anyway. Having gone to college, I can say that there are both good and bad instructors there, just like anywhere else. The degree or certificate does not necessarily mean that the person will be good at what they do, so in the end, what is the point of all the regulation that the dance would have to try to survive through?

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I don't think anyone here has said that a college course would be better than several months of study with a quality teacher (of course, the college should choose the best teacher available and carefully consider her suitability to the challenge). Your comment about good and bad instructors is also out of left field.

The point is to teach the subject matter academically, as other dances are taught, for the benefit of the students at the college. Worst case senario, interested students learn some bellydance and other M.E. dances, without having to go off-campus and pay a separate fee. Best case senario, the students learn about M.E. history, culture, and music, as well as a little of the dance, they spread that cultural knowledge among their friends, and several go on to study seriously with a "quality teacher".

A'isha Azar said:

Dear Teela,
I make it a point as much as possible to bring videos of natives doing what they do whenever I teach a workshop, even in Egyptian belly dance. We have specific video nights in my regular classes as well. I think the more exposure we have to authentic ethnic dancing of all kinds, the better off we all are if we are claiming to perform authentic ethnic dances.

Regards,
A'isha

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A college bellydance class (or ME dance class, or Arabic dance class) would be an ideal forum for exposing students to such videos. To argue against college bellydance (etc etc) classes, is to argue against that kind of exposure.

da Sage said:

This argument could be made for any ethnic/cultural dance form, with either western or modern flavor.

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It has been argued that once something non-indigenous to the west is introduced in the west, it is automatically "westernized" in the most basic fashion -- simply because it has been taken out of its former context. I think we've definitely seen this with food, language, and music, so it's not a big step to think it would apply with dance.

But "westernization" doesn't have to imply a value judgment. We tend to think of it as a bad thing, but it doesn't have to be.

But the leaders and master teachers in this dance have a strong tradition of research and study in the M.E. I think increased university involvement would only encourage such research.

More importantly, keeping bellydance and other middle eastern dances out of formalized higher education will not keep this "cultural drift" from happening. If it happens, it happens everywhere. And I think college classes will NOT speed up the process.

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Sometimes what we refer to as "cultural drift" is actually ENCOURAGED by immigrants, or their children and children's children, who are desperately trying to find an identify as a "normal American" while appreciation their own cultural heritage.

We also sometimes assume that non-westerners AREN'T enamored of Levis jeans, Hollywood, and cheesecake on a stick. Let's face it -- they're here. There must be something about the west that they appreciate!

But back to bellydance -- one of the criticisms leveled against, say ballet training for dancers here, is this: "In the native country, the dancers don't take ballet, so we shouldn't, if we want to remain authentic."

Again, a logical fallacy -- we assume that the native dancers would REJECT ballet classes if they were offered, and that is simply not the case. Nashwa has told me that little Egyptian girls would LOVE to take ballet or modern dance, but it either wasn't available in the area, or was too expensive.

We've seen ON THIS VERY FORUM young Arab women desperately looking for "academies" to teach them how to belly dance. If professional belly dance classes were readily available, don't you think those young women would be signing up? If professional ballet training was offered to the famous Egyptian dancers, I'll bet they'd take it without worrying about it "westernizing" their dance. I've heard people say Dina takes tap dance class. I seriously doubt she's afraid she's going to lose fans because her performance reflects that "western" dance form influence.

In my experience, dancers love dance. People who are drawn to dance love it in MANY forms, and if time and money were unlimited, they'd sign up for every dance class they could.

Many subjects have fuzzy edges. Gay/Lesbian studies (now does this include transgender??, etc), religion, psychology, ethics, philosophy, art, theater...most "intro to" courses start with a statement of what the subject is, what it isn't, and what's debatable. Logically, the teacher would integrate the debate into the class.

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I didn't think of this, but now that you mention it, it's an excellent point. Approaching the debate this way makes it seem less like a bunch of dancers being catty and pointing "this is and this isn't" fingers, and more like an actual debate about putting boundaries on a cultural practice, ownership -- all the good stuff we focus on here that might not be a part of your everyday dance class.

A college bellydance class (or ME dance class, or Arabic dance class) would be an ideal forum for exposing students to such videos. To argue against college bellydance (etc etc) classes, is to argue against that kind of exposure.

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Yes again -- I've long tried to figure out a way to incorporate videos into the classroom, and when we've done student surveys they've said they WANT to see videos, but not during regular class time. But nobody wants to reschedule their weekends to have a video party, and only some of the places where we teach have access to a VCR/DVD player.

Teaching on a semester/quarter basis is really exciting to me because you have students locked in for the whole session, and not 6 weeks here, and 4 weeks here, and coming every other month when they can afford it, or alternating a month of dance with a month of singing lessons. If you have students commit to an entire 4 years -- good lordie, look what you can teach them!!! You could cover SO much music! So many rhythms! So much history! So many different styles!

I drool at the possibility. AND you wouldn't have to worry about your studio closing, or being evicted because the area was rezoned, or students paying with bad checks, or parking concerns (any more than on any campus) or cheap-rent/bad-neighborhood syndrome scaring away students, or any of the other crappy stuff we have to deal with when renting space for classes.

(BTW -- IS there a 4-year model for Middle Eastern dance in college, anywhere? I thought maybe UCLA, but I can't find it in the catalog.)

Hi Aziyade:

Sorry to butt in but I've been trying to contact you. Could you send me a P.M or e-mail?

Certification, etc.

Dear da Sage,

da Sage said:

I have simply been honest about how I perceive your posts over time on this forum, and I don't feel I was "insisting" on anything...in fact I was hoping you would give me an alternate explanation for my observations.

A. writes-Well.... the explanations that I have given do not seem to have any meaning for you...



This argument could be made for any ethnic/cultural dance form, with either western or modern flavor. But the leaders and master teachers in this dance have a strong tradition of research and study in the M.E. I think increased university involvement would only encourage such research.

A. writes- The point is that, like research in many fields that involve human activity, one can research it to death and still not be any closer to what the people are doing or who they are. I think we can point to anthropology as an example of how this worked for many years. People are just now beginning to realize that we have to approach anthropology in new ways if we are to relate it to the people. It became about the academics instead of about the people themselves. It became more about what researchers thought of the people than about the actual people, if that makes sense.

More importantly, keeping bellydance and other middle eastern dances out of formalized higher education will not keep this "cultural drift" from happening. If it happens, it happens everywhere. And I think college classes will NOT speed up the process.

A. writes- See above.


Many subjects have fuzzy edges. Gay/Lesbian studies (now does this include transgender??, etc), religion, psychology, ethics, philosophy, art, theater...most "intro to" courses start with a statement of what the subject is, what it isn't, and what's debatable. Logically, the teacher would integrate the debate into the class.

A. writes- So many times, classes are about something other than heart and soul, which is where the dance lives, as opposed to all the historical stuff, or the costumes, or the movements, etc. This is VERY hard to teach, even without the constraints of what a teacher is told to teach for accreditation.
And it is very different from ballet or other western dances because most people do not start out with a firm grasp of the culture behind the dance.



I don't think anyone here has said that a college course would be better than several months of study with a quality teacher (of course, the college should choose the best teacher available and carefully consider her suitability to the challenge). Your comment about good and bad instructors is also out of left field.

A. writes- I disagree. It is not out in left field at all. First of all, usually one has to have certain credentials to teach in a college, and often those are not very concrete in the field of Middle Eastern dance, so that some darn good instructors will not be eligible to teach. A general dance degree does not make one fit for teaching this particular dance.

The point is to teach the subject matter academically, as other dances are taught, for the benefit of the students at the college. Worst case senario, interested students learn some bellydance and other M.E. dances, without having to go off-campus and pay a separate fee. Best case senario, the students learn about M.E. history, culture, and music, as well as a little of the dance, they spread that cultural knowledge among their friends, and several go on to study seriously with a "quality teacher".

A. writes- No, the worst case scenario is that the dances get taught in a very "academic" fashion, with little or no visceral intent, which is what the dance is really all about, so that it becomes a watered down, precisely technical, robotic, symmetric, unrelated to its cultures of origin, shadow of what it really is. We see this often enough already. Enclosing it inside a generalized academic formula is not going to help that.



A college bellydance class (or ME dance class, or Arabic dance class) would be an ideal forum for exposing students to such videos. To argue against college bellydance (etc etc) classes, is to argue against that kind of exposure.

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A. writes- There are already hundreds of ideal forums for showing videos that have not got the constraints that an academic venue would have. In order for a class to be accredited, it usually has to meet some guidelines put in place quite often, according to Professor Eugene Engene, among others with whom I have discussed the issue, by people who know very little or even nothing about the subject matter. It used to drive him crazy. ( Gene Engene was chairman of the Theater Department at Eastern Washington University for he last few years that I worked there as costume designer.)

Are you not the one whose head wanted to explode when I tried to explain what the dance really is in relationship to movement? Aziyade knew what I meant with the explanation about movement disappearing, thank God. I would like someone to even try to define that in academic terms. It instead needs the heart, the soul, the body, the culture, the essence, that essence so undefinable in words, to really get the point across. This dance experience is not based so firmly in the intellectual. It lacks the story telling qualities of ballet, and the choreography of the folk dances they usually teach in culturally oriented dance classes. It is a dance in which the visceral quality must be in the forefront. That's something we can sort of say, but it's not really teachable. It has to be seen and felt.


Anyway, I believe I have made my point as best I can, so I will bow out now.
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan said:

Hi Aziyade:

Sorry to butt in but I've been trying to contact you. Could you send me a P.M or e-mail?

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Okay, I SUPPOSEDLY sent you an email through the forum, although I don't think the PMs went through. I just sent a PM to Aisha, and it looks like it failed. Sigh. I need a new computer. Respond if/when you get that, K?

PM

Aziyade said:

Okay, I SUPPOSEDLY sent you an email through the forum, although I don't think the PMs went through. I just sent a PM to Aisha, and it looks like it failed. Sigh. I need a new computer. Respond if/when you get that, K?

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Dear Aziyade,
You can reach me at aishaazar@raqsazar.com.
Regards,
A'isha

A'isha wrote, re anthropology:
"It became more about what researchers thought of the people than about the actual people, if that makes sense."

Yes, cultural imperialism and the western educational model. Every discipline has seen this prejudice, including the sciences. This started being addressed in the 60s, with the women's studies movement. (At least, I credit women's studies with really bringing it to light. My OWN personal prejudice. LOL) Most of the social sciences address this "looking at the world through the prejudice of our own eyes" issue.

The Ancient Greeks, the Druids, and Old White British Men each created educational models. Educational models change with the times. What you're referring to -- which is a holdover from the Old White British model -- is being addressed in the university environment NOW.

Are there problems in the current model? Of course! But there are problems in ANY structure/organization, and we don't just disregard the entire thing because of problems or issue of thought that ARE being addressed, just not necessarily to one person's personal specifications.

A'isha wrote:
So many times, classes are about something other than heart and soul, which is where the dance lives, as opposed to all the historical stuff, or the costumes, or the movements, etc. This is VERY hard to teach, even without the constraints of what a teacher is told to teach for accreditation.

Oh now! This is like saying you can't teach someone to paint because painting isn't about oil and canvas, but about the heart and soul of the artist. Painting and Dance are both CRAFTS and ARTS. The craft part is the technique and the history etc. This can be taught. Art is transcended craft, maybe. Maybe you can't teach this. But you don't START with the art -- you start with the craft. I can teach you to mix paint, or use a sumi-e brush or draw photorealistically. It's up to you to make "art" with your craft.

Plus, I REALLY want to know how many college belly dance classes you've taken. You speak as though you've had a lot of experience with it, and you've listened to many many teachers struggle with the "constraints" of teaching credit classes. I'm wondering where you get this?

It's entirely possible that your experience is not UNIVERSAL. I would imagine that the pressures put on professors at a conservative Southern Baptist college are MUCH different than those of a small private liberal arts college, or regional community colleges, or a huge state school like UK. No one is saying there AREN'T academic pressures or state- or university-mandated requirements for minimum coverage and grading. But you DEFINITELY give those mandates more weight than I've seen in my experience.

At UE, we bugged and bugged and bugged a favorite lit prof to offer a class on Old English translation and reading old Norse literature. (He could read it, and translating it was a hobby of his.) All he had to do, to make the class happen, was show that 6 students were interested. He didn't have to run his syllabus past anyone, or get anyone's approval except the registrar -- who just had to make sure that enough students were interested and scheduling a time for it didn't conflict with any of our major's required offerings.

At USI, a prof offered a class on Alchemy and Magic in culture and literature, and again -- it was one of her hobbies, and all she had to do to offer the class was have interested students. Now, in order for it be considered a CAPSTONE class, or have it available for GRADUATE credit, she had to show that she was actually going to require something of us, and that it would meet the capstone requirements of analysis and critical thinking -- which means she advertised that we had to write so many papers and would be looking at the class from a sociological, historical, and literary viewpoint. But nobody told her what to teach or how to teach it.

Nobody peeked over their shoulders when they taught this stuff, and they didn't have to have anyone "authorize" their syllabus. A'isha, at your university the situation may have been different, but as I've said -- not universal, any more than mine.


You wrote:
"And it is very different from ballet or other western dances because most people do not start out with a firm grasp of the culture behind the dance."

Exactly -- and there is NO guarantee that any belly dance instructor teaching out of a studio has ANY clue about the culture. If bellydance were being taught in the Middle Eastern studies department, I can't see the hippy dippy goddessy chick coming in and talking about the Seven Veils or sacred prostitution.


You wrote:
"First of all, usually one has to have certain credentials to teach in a college, and often those are not very concrete in the field of Middle Eastern dance,"

I agree with you, but it's not unique to dance. The first Women's Studies courses were not listed as "Women's Studies" because there was no such thing and no such department. "Digital Design" is a new thing too. Who got to teach those first classes? People who didn't have formal degrees in design, but knew how to use the software then available. Eventually, the teacher pool starts to consist of people who HAVE the degrees, and then having a degree to teach becomes expected.


"A general dance degree does not make one fit for teaching this particular dance."

One could argue that a general ART degree didn't make a person fit for teaching digital design, but until people started TEACHING it in college, there was no degree for digital design.

I really don't get the resistance. We want to see Middle Eastern dance recognized as a real art form, we want people to know that it's a cultural practice and as such they should know about the culture and the dance in its cultural context, and we want people to respect it and not treat it as trivial or trite, or a T&A show -- and we have the perfect arena for it to GET respectability but we resist putting it there???


A'isha wrote:
"No, the worst case scenario is that the dances get taught in a very "academic" fashion, with little or no visceral intent, which is what the dance is really all about, so that it becomes a watered down, precisely technical, robotic, symmetric, unrelated to its cultures of origin, shadow of what it really is."

So if Morocco or Shareen el Safy got a job tomorrow teaching a 4-year program at NYU or UC, suddenly they would be teaching the dance with no visceral intent? If the University in Cairo hired Dina to teach a 4-year program, she wouldn't be able to teach the heart and soul of the dance??? Should I inform Nashwa that she shouldn't be teaching at Berea or Eastern Kentucky U because what she teaches is going to become unrelated it its cultures of origin and a shadow of what she did back in Egypt??

I REALLY don't see where you get this. If your experience of formal art education is that the subject become "precisely technical and robotic" then I pity you. But I have to state again that your experience is not necessarily UNIVERSAL. I can see the distinct possibility that students in college Middle Eastern dance classes would have very different experiences and therefore very different attitudes about dance in academia.


You wrote:
"There are already hundreds of ideal forums for showing videos that have not got the constraints that an academic venue would have."

Where???? During class? At video parties? You can't assume everyone has the internet at home and wants to go home and watch Youtube." Or that those people have access to a teacher who can COMMENT on the video, like Shira does when she gives her video lectures.

"In order for a class to be accredited, it usually has to meet some guidelines put in place quite often, according to Professor Eugene Engene, among others with whom I have discussed the issue, by people who know very little or even nothing about the subject matter."

This is his experience. As I showed before, this isn't a universal situation. Maybe that university is more stringent than others, maybe a million different things.

If we're talking about UNIVERSITY accreditation, (like ACICS) that's an entire different animal than individual class requirements. Universities that accept federal financial aid have to meet federally-mandated requirements -- like all things federal. But this is done to protect students and lending institutions from diploma mills and loan defaults. Accrediting agencies like ACICS prevent diploma mills. I don't see them as crimping the style of formal education.

At the heart of the ACICS philosophy, and part of the requirements for new degrees and new programs of study at an "institution" (college): "An institution proposing new programs must assure ACICS that the programs conform to the stated mission of the institution and its current program offerings."

That means the college has to show that the new program fits the COLLEGE's mission. Not ACICS.

In order to teach a Bachelor's level class at an ACICS college:

"Instructors teaching courses other than general education shall should hold bachelor’s degrees at a minimum and shall be assigned based on their major and minor academic preparation and/or related experience. However, exceptions to the bachelor’s degree requirement may be justified for instructors who have demonstrable current exceptional professional level experience in the assigned field, such as documented coursework in the field, professional certification(s), letters of recommendation or attestations from previous employer(s), letters attesting to this expertise from professional peers not connected to the college, real examples of previous success in the field such as published work, juried exhibits and shows, evidence of a professional portfolio accepted by the college and available for review, and other significant documented experience relevant to the courses to be taught."

Full requirements are here:
http://www.acics.org/Publications/accredcrit.asp

Darn good instructors WILL be eligible to teach. They may have to jump through a paperwork hoop to do so, but that's just life today. Morocco's case may be different, but she might want to check CURRENT

One last thing:
Aziyade knew what I meant with the explanation about movement disappearing, thank God. I would like someone to even try to define that in academic terms.


I took what you were saying to mean the ART of bellydance performance. The craft of learning to dance can be learned first, I firmly believe, although you may disagree with me, but it's how other general arts are taught, and HAVE been taught for centuries. We learn to hold a brush before we ever learn to try to evoke emotions in the viewer with our brush strokes.

A'isha & Aziyade--an interesting debate. I can see both sides. I myself very much appreciate the nonacademic, self-directed aspects of my study of this dance and I would never have pursued a BA in dance. I'm not sure a BA in dance would actually help anyone get a job in say dance performance. Maybe in dance teaching though. That's how institutions perpetuate themselves.

Aziyade--I'm just wondering. Do you imagine giving homework assignments, tests, and grades to your dance college students? How would you balance history, craft, etc. in the curriculum? Would people with 'natural talent' or let's say prior in-culture experience get better grades without studying as hard? Would hopeless klutzes get F's despite hours of practice? It kind of reminds me of studying foreign language in that way.

Also an aside--my husband teaches an Old English translation not-for-credit seminar (at his private high school) and is very interested in Old Norse and Icelandic and the sagas. He's teaching an elective on Vikings now too.

Cathy

Frankly I think it's a good thing. I mean, I don't know if I personally feel that I should have been the first dancer to be offered it but I really want to see bellydance accepted like all other dances. There should even be a degree in it, requiring learning Arabic and a minor in anthropology or something.

I don't want it to be a rigid horrible thing myself. I don't do things that way. I don't really see how teaching it in a college is going to be any different or stiffer than teaching it at a studio.

Re: Academic/institution restrictions on the content of dance classes

I don't think my wonderful and amazing modern dance teacher had any problem getting her Middle Eastern Dance class approved by the "powers that be" in my private, religious college. I wish I could have taken that class. Heck, I wish I had heard more about how it went!

But knowing my teacher, I'm certain that it was taught with attention to the heart of the dance, as well as the form of the steps.

A'isha,

I agree with you that there is a lot about dance, especially this dance (for me anyway) that can't be cut and dried, boiled down to a syllabus, and much is visceral. I liked whatever one person said about the real feeling can't even be taught but must be discovered.

But I wonder whether the visceral would be sucked out by putting classes in a college setting. I suspect that foreign language teachers feel the same--it can't be broken down into mere grammar drills and pronunciation, that to really speak a language the student needs to absorb cultural essence to get intonations, shades of meaning, turns of phrase, etc. that have to be experienced in culture. I think all this is true BUT does that mean it's hopeless to take French classes in college, that teaching a living language in a basically dead classroom is stripping all life and meaning from the language? I don't think it has to be that way. It would be better if everyone could learn by immersion but it's totally impractical.

Like I say, college is not the setting where I would choose to study it in a formal way but hey! Everyone is different and it would get some recognition for the dance as being just as worthy as others.

Cathy