Got all the moves..

Caroline_afifi

New member
But has not got the 'spark' ....

As a teacher, would you put forward a student for pro dancing if they have all the moves but dont have any spark?

I am seeing increasing numbers of technically good dancers but they are deviod of emotion and expression.

Do you think as teachers we should be encouraging pro dancing in people who are expressionless but technically brilliant?

Are we as teachers objective enough to recognise when we are doing this?
 

kayshier

New member
But has not got the 'spark' ....

As a teacher, would you put forward a student for pro dancing if they have all the moves but dont have any spark?

I am seeing increasing numbers of technically good dancers but they are deviod of emotion and expression.

Do you think as teachers we should be encouraging pro dancing in people who are expressionless but technically brilliant?

Are we as teachers objective enough to recognise when we are doing this?


AHHH.....good question.
this 'spark' as you want to put it, comes from within, it is part of your personality. any expression of art is imo, not truly legitimate until that expression comes...you can tell it even with singers for example. some may be technically sound, but because they are not portraying themselves in their voices, or their personality comes shining through singing, it becomes just a not of nice notes being heard.

but i have a question..

if you are technically sound as a dancer, but given the general consensus here that for the dance to be legitimate, it must be sensitive to the culture to which it represents, how then do you present that personality, that cultural sensibility if it is alien, (for want of a better term to you)...what personality or charm then are you to project to make your dance as authentic as possible?
is it then that if you are unable (due to whatever reason) project the egyptian, or turkish sensibility in the dance (through emotional response to the music) but just letting yourself shine are you doing the dance justice?

I mean the only way really imo is by interfacing with the culture on a consistent basis..can that be learnt in a class setting really?

does it require you to understand the culture outside of dance? so that culture can be translated thorough dance? is it a learned thing, can it be learned or is it inherent?

yuh know..so many questions..
 

Mya

New member
Dear Caro - i think for some people, the spark only comes with experience. I myself am still a baby dancer in many many respects and am still only occasionally able to get that spark in performances - and never when i really really want it to show. The more i perform though the more it comes out....that of course could also be because as i spend more time here i grow as a dancer and that's evolving my performances too. :confused::think:

I also go through some of Kayshier's questions in my mind when it comes to this topic.
 

Oona

New member
But has not got the 'spark' ....

As a teacher, would you put forward a student for pro dancing if they have all the moves but dont have any spark?

I am seeing increasing numbers of technically good dancers but they are deviod of emotion and expression.

Do you think as teachers we should be encouraging pro dancing in people who are expressionless but technically brilliant?

Are we as teachers objective enough to recognise when we are doing this?

Extremely interesting topic! As I'm not a teacher, I can only say that I would hope that any prospective pros have a bit of both. Maybe when those teachers have a technically brilliant student, they should help them work on finding their connection to the music's emotion and and learn to express this if said student is lacking in that department. I'm sure there's various ways to go about this, depending on the student. But I too get a bit tired watching dancers who do amazing things but show no personality there. However, I can watch an expressive dancer for ages, even if their technique is a bit 'softer' because it's the energy and the feelings they're projecting that draws me in. If there is no energy moving between dancer and audience, then in my humble personal opinion, I just don't see the point.
 

Caroline_afifi

New member
I always say, you need a bit of 'fire in your belly' when you dance.

I agree with Oona that less technique and more expression is far nicer and probably closer to the 'real thing'.

If you enjoy the movement and the music and the movement, then basically you are expressing the culture. If you are expressing your joy at being in the limelight, then you are not.

A load of props and fancy footwork does not express that much too me, and neither does aloof and disengaged whilst trying to be perfect.

A good teacher should work on both in tandem.
 

kayshier

New member
I always say, you need a bit of 'fire in your belly' when you dance.

I agree with Oona that less technique and more expression is far nicer and probably closer to the 'real thing'.

If you enjoy the movement and the music and the movement, then basically you are expressing the culture. If you are expressing your joy at being in the limelight, then you are not.

A load of props and fancy footwork does not express that much too me, and neither does aloof and disengaged whilst trying to be perfect.

A good teacher should work on both in tandem.

but suppose this 'fire' is a trinidadian fire, an american fire, some other place fire, but not an egyptian fire or a turkish fire...then what is expressed at the end of the day?
is it really raks?
 

Mya

New member
but suppose this 'fire' is a trinidadian fire, an american fire, some other place fire, but not an egyptian fire or a turkish fire...then what is expressed at the end of the day?
is it really raks?

It's like learning a foreign language - you have to learn to channel your american/trinidadian/Swedish self in an Egyptian/Turkish/Lebanese way.

You (generic) can't expect to want to speak Spanish with a German accent and grammar constructs and have the Spanish speakers be thrilled about it. Similarly you can't want to channel trini or american in MED and expect it to be thought wonderful.

It's a process - a process of learning and practising and adjusting probably for the rest of your life how to see things through the ME eyes and letting that come through in your dance. It may not be raqs now, but it might get closer to it as you grow in the dance. No one walks into ballet class today and expects to be a prima ballerina tomorrow or next year or ever even - it's no different for raqs.

You (generic) may never be absolutely fluent in this dance, but to let that deter you would be as silly as abandoning a foreign language because most people will never be as fluent as a native speaker even after decades of study and living there.
 

Mya

New member
A good teacher should work on both in tandem.

I totally agree with this! It seems though that one tends to develop faster than the other for most people outside of the culture of origin and also that many people are far more comfortable to express when they feel like they're doing the movements "right" - maybe because in the west, the GP often (seem to) judge the dance on the quality of the movement first and everything else after?

I don't know - i'm just trying to make sense of it.
 
I always say, you need a bit of 'fire in your belly' when you dance.

I agree with Oona that less technique and more expression is far nicer and probably closer to the 'real thing'.

If you enjoy the movement and the music and the movement, then basically you are expressing the culture. If you are expressing your joy at being in the limelight, then you are not.

A load of props and fancy footwork does not express that much too me, and neither does aloof and disengaged whilst trying to be perfect.

A good teacher should work on both in tandem.

Great topic, as I agree with your basic assessment, but please allow me to tag a few more lines to your last statement. I think a good teacher MUST introduce those concepts and then provide opportunities to allow these expressions to occur. As it has been said many times before on this forum...one cannot separate the dance from the music and therefore the culture. So even technically sound dancers still need to undestand the cultural context of the music... This, it seems to be our collective opinion, is what makes expressive dancers so enjoyable to watch.

The 'fire in the belly' is an apt term for the dynamic forms of western style dances, personally I prefer 'passions in the heart' to describe the subtle and dynamic energy that's found in bellydance.
Yasmine
 

Aniseteph

New member
You (generic) may never be absolutely fluent in this dance, but to let that deter you would be as silly as abandoning a foreign language because most people will never be as fluent as a native speaker even after decades of study and living there.

:clap: rep for this! (sorry it's just virtual rep :rolleyes:)

The fire, spark, passion - whatever you call it - is having something to say in this language you are learning. I don't think it matters what nationality you are.
 

taheya

New member
:clap: rep for this! (sorry it's just virtual rep :rolleyes:)

The fire, spark, passion - whatever you call it - is having something to say in this language you are learning. I don't think it matters what nationality you are.

That is sucha a nice way of putting it Anisteph.
It is so much better to see a dancer with feeling and chacter over a dancer with perfect technique. I find it so hard to get emotionally engaged with a performer if their is no character or soul in a performance, it is almost as though it doesnt quite have the same effect. Technical ability although is important is not as vital as a connection to the music.
 

lizaj

New member
May I had the word-entertainer to that of performer. No without the the "personality", you will not be a success.
Being an excellent technician needs to be layered with a personal stamp. There's an instinct in someone who has developed that entertainer-skill and s/he is able to tailor her "act" to her venue as well as dance all the moves.
This isn't necessarily about age or even experience - some young dancers as well as "those who have lived a little" are able to dance with warmth and interpretation and emotion.
Cold, precise dancing does not attract. It can be admired and be worthy but ultimately both the informed and the GP will go for the less than perfect with a dollop of passion or spark!
 

candi

New member
May I had the word-entertainer to that of performer. No without the the "personality", you will not be a success.
Being an excellent technician needs to be layered with a personal stamp. There's an instinct in someone who has developed that entertainer-skill and s/he is able to tailor her "act" to her venue as well as dance all the moves.
This isn't necessarily about age or even experience - some young dancers as well as "those who have lived a little" are able to dance with warmth and interpretation and emotion.
Cold, precise dancing does not attract. It can be admired and be worthy but ultimately both the informed and the GP will go for the less than perfect with a dollop of passion or spark!

Yes yes YES. Definately. We are entertainers. Its no use being the best dancer ever if you aren't entertaining-nobody will care. Its the whole package of dancer/entertainer/personality/emotion/music awareness and the ability to communicate with your audience. I've seen some fabulous dancers that just don't dance like they are dancing for an audience. audiences lose interest if you ignore them.
 

Kashmir

New member
Ideally I'd like both. But if I could have only one I'd take a reasonable dancer with personality over one who has great technique but has lost the point of dancing for an audience. Which is not to show how proficient you are. It is to connect the audience to the music - and that takes human emotion.
 

da Sage

New member
But has not got the 'spark' ....

As a teacher, would you put forward a student for pro dancing if they have all the moves but dont have any spark?

I am seeing increasing numbers of technically good dancers but they are deviod of emotion and expression.

Do you think as teachers we should be encouraging pro dancing in people who are expressionless but technically brilliant?

Are we as teachers objective enough to recognise when we are doing this?

If the dancer is technically sound, I think you should let her know that you are pleased with her dancing, but that she needs to put more emotion into her dance before you are comfortable recommending her as a pro. And then you should offer to work with her yourself, or if perhaps she is not comfortable working with you, mention other teachers she might work with on this.
 

SmilingMarie

New member
y'all are so clever!
I try to give as much info about the music I use (I'm a teacher), the style of dance, appropriate costumes, historical background etc in my weekly classes - my students sometimes complain I talk too much but I get carried away because I think it is to damn important! It is not the moves that are hard - it's the rest of it!
I know that some students are surprised to learn that bellydance has so many layers - I only hope they are intrigued enough to wanna continue to learn all the other aspects and work with themselves to discover their own place in the dance. It is definitely easy to spot those who don't!
 

Kharis

New member
I'm presuming it's meant that spark equals energy? A dance lacking energy is a dull one indeed, but I personally feel that this energy comes in many forms and not just in the 'emoting' department. Some folks think that face pulling equates to dancing with feeling. Wrong. So much can be expressed using the body alone. But it must have energy.
 

lizaj

New member
I'm presuming it's meant that spark equals energy? A dance lacking energy is a dull one indeed, but I personally feel that this energy comes in many forms and not just in the 'emoting' department. Some folks think that face pulling equates to dancing with feeling. Wrong. So much can be expressed using the body alone. But it must have energy.

Physical yes and also emotional. I agree that does not mean having an orgasm as you dance. That's too much information:D
 

Kashmir

New member
I'm presuming it's meant that spark equals energy?
No, I don't think it is "energy". I think it is a full engagement with the music and a connection with their body, their emotions and the audience. Being present with those subtle body language signals which say this is just flowing out and through me - relaxed face, alive eyes, mobile mouth, a little tension in the arms and hands but with a softening as they follow the music etc.
 
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