Got all the moves..

Caroline_afifi

New member
I'm presuming it's meant that spark equals energy? A dance lacking energy is a dull one indeed, but I personally feel that this energy comes in many forms and not just in the 'emoting' department. Some folks think that face pulling equates to dancing with feeling. Wrong. So much can be expressed using the body alone. But it must have energy.

Spark is emotional energy as opposed to Physical.

Where does face pulling come into it? that is another issue as false expression is as bad as non.

Some dancers just wear an expression that makes them look like they just smelt sh*t, the other is a 'gin queen' smile but all have these have nothing to do with 'spark'.
 

lizaj

New member
It's important for a dancer to be herself. Some people are very animated in their everyday life, some less expressive. What sometimes comes across is when a dancer rehearses their facial expressions as well as their moves and boy does it show.
I do watch some dancers who don't evenseem to be enjoying themselves and I'm not sure why they actually do the dance. And it's like they begrudge their auidence any joy.It's not enough to do it well ( this dance in particular) you have to enjoy it and share it. And that goes for an "energetic" dance physically or one that demands emotional intensity.
I do think wether the dance is more restrained or "bouncy, there is energy required, control as we all know is hard work.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
No, I don't think it is "energy". I think it is a full engagement with the music and a connection with their body, their emotions and the audience.

Agreed. Another word for it is charisma, you have to engage the audience in the performance. Draw them in if you will.

Recently I was watching a competition (*cough* American Idol *cough*) and one of the contestants was given a hard time by the judges because he wasn't engaging the audience. His background was musical theater and they criticized him because, according to them, there was a wall between him and the audience (as there usually is in theater performances). Even though his performance was technically amazing it still fell short without that connection.

To me the difference between professional and everyone else in any performance is that spark. Even if someone goes "pro" if they are missing it they can only get so far.
 

Kharis

New member
It's important for a dancer to be herself. .

I so agree. I know a dancer who was told she did not emote enough facially and that because of this she wasn't very 'egyptian'....whatever that means. She was quite concerned and this knocked her confidence. I told her to just be herself. Some folks can muster up some kind of persona when they dance, but it doesn't work for others. So if in doubt, just be yourself.
 

lizaj

New member
I so agree. I know a dancer who was told she did not emote enough facially and that because of this she wasn't very 'egyptian'....whatever that means. She was quite concerned and this knocked her confidence. I told her to just be herself. Some folks can muster up some kind of persona when they dance, but it doesn't work for others. So if in doubt, just be yourself.

It is very difficult for any of us Westerners "to be Egyptian". I am not saying impossible. I think back to what Caroline said about Lorna - a longish sojorn in Cairo has done wonders for her style.
I think we can be taught the mechanics of Egyptian style belly dance and execute them and still "miss it" in performance.
Sometimes if we are too polished, too sharp,too cool, too haaartt,too self conscious, too confident, too set in our ways to change,too open minded to other influences or maybe just not that interested in doing other than pleasing ourselves. there's a myriad of reasons as to why we fail and why we fail to entertain
There is also that mile of difference between being a brilliant technician and being a satisfactory entertainer ( I prefer that to performer because I've seen too many dancers who forget that's what they are). It's a matter of humanity and humility towards your audience.
We've all been to the big festiivals and been in awe of skill but especilaly with the stage- the warmth of the performer either isn't there or doesn't reach us and we are left feeling empty. I do regret saying it but that's the problem with BDSS. Compare what some of us felt after seeing them and what we felt after seeing Dandesh on the Farha tour. And Western dancers can achieve that. I'll add a photo of Lorna Gow that somehow captured her joy and her ability to capture an "essense " of the dance ( Ek am I sounding like Aisha..I still miss you, lady)

[IMG]http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s158/lizajuk/409lorna5.jpg[/IMG]


Lorna at JoY this April
 
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Caroline_afifi

New member
Well I am not so sure that everyone can rely on 'being themselves' for a performance.

What does that mean exactly?

Artists have to draw on some acting... if the have stormed out of the house after a big bust up... or they went to the hairdressers and they messed up their hair do, or they are just the permanently depressed types, or they dont generally smile alot.

If people naturally have dead pan expressions then it just aint gonna work.

Look at that photo of Lorna.. she wasnt like that before going to Cairo, she had to learn a 'new self' and develop her expression in her dance and it certainly has worked for her.

If a dancer has been told to work on expression by her teacher then whats the problem? why would that knock her confidence?

We have to stop being fragile if we have a desire to go pro, listen to advice and learn how to take it.

Only mothers love unconditionally! :lol:

Ps that photo looks odd out of context, Lorna was about to blow a kiss!
 

lizaj

New member
Well I am not so sure that everyone can rely on 'being themselves' for a performance.

What does that mean exactly?

Artists have to draw on some acting... if the have stormed out of the house after a big bust up... or they went to the hairdressers and they messed up their hair do, or they are just the permanently depressed types, or they dont generally smile alot.

If people naturally have dead pan expressions then it just aint gonna work.

Look at that photo of Lorna.. she wasnt like that before going to Cairo, she had to learn a 'new self' and develop her expression in her dance and it certainly has worked for her.

If a dancer has been told to work on expression by her teacher then whats the problem? why would that knock her confidence?

We have to stop being fragile if we have a desire to go pro, listen to advice and learn how to take it.

Only mothers love unconditionally! :lol:

Ps that photo looks odd out of context, Lorna was about to blow a kiss!

I agree about a stage persona but what I think is a mistake is if a dancer tries to move to far away from herself. A simplistic example trying to do uber-sexee when you just ain't like that. It's better just to look like you are pleased to be dancing!
I am thinking of hafla dancing here. I see an awful lot of rueful looking dancers ..has teacher twisted their arm?
I also see good dancers who look like they wish they were elsewhere. I suspect some think they are doing their fellow dancers a favour from the expression they can barely disguise:lol:
If you don't have the "acting" talent that a dancer needs it is better that a dancer takes a personal approach.
So you make it to the stage and paid employment.By this time you need to be an actressOf course the problems lies if she doesn't have a very dynamic personality or strength of character and then you might well say ..why perform?!

Lorna could have had an itchy nose, be blowing a raspberry or just needed a rest :D
But I think the photo showed that experiences had given her that assured but relaxed way you exect from a good Egyptian style dancer.
 

Caroline_afifi

New member
I agree about a stage persona but what I think is a mistake is if a dancer tries to move to far away from herself. A simplistic example trying to do uber-sexee when you just ain't like that. It's better just to look like you are pleased to be dancing!

Pleased to be dancing is an expression.

I am thinking of hafla dancing here. I see an awful lot of rueful looking dancers ..has teacher twisted their arm?

and ones who count...

I also see good dancers who look like they wish they were elsewhere. I suspect some think they are doing their fellow dancers a favour from the expression they can barely disguise:lol:

?

If you don't have the "acting" talent that a dancer needs it is better that a dancer takes a personal approach.

faking your dance is like faking sex. Hopefully you wont have to do it but if you are a pro and you are feeling ill etc. then occasionally needs must.

I am talking about 'peo' here and what it often takes. I have danced on a few occasions in the past, following the death of a famaily member etc. you cannot express your grief, you have to find something else within you and 'switch off' your dominant emotion. I have also danced with Flu and suffered every second. It is sheer fantasy to be 'true' to ourselves at all times. A paid performer has to offer something other than their emotions.

So you make it to the stage and paid employment.By this time you need to be an actressOf course the problems lies if she doesn't have a very dynamic personality or strength of character and then you might well say ..why perform?!

yep.

Lorna could have had an itchy nose, be blowing a raspberry or just needed a rest :D
But I think the photo showed that experiences had given her that assured but relaxed way you exect from a good Egyptian style dancer.

Exactly and who knows what she felt underneath all of that. She was probably exhausted but she delivered and was fabulous.
 

kayshier

New member
Well I am not so sure that everyone can rely on 'being themselves' for a performance.

What does that mean exactly?

Artists have to draw on some acting... if the have stormed out of the house after a big bust up... or they went to the hairdressers and they messed up their hair do, or they are just the permanently depressed types, or they dont generally smile alot.

If people naturally have dead pan expressions then it just aint gonna work.

Look at that photo of Lorna.. she wasnt like that before going to Cairo, she had to learn a 'new self' and develop her expression in her dance and it certainly has worked for her.

If a dancer has been told to work on expression by her teacher then whats the problem? why would that knock her confidence?

We have to stop being fragile if we have a desire to go pro, listen to advice and learn how to take it.

Only mothers love unconditionally! :lol:

Ps that photo looks odd out of context, Lorna was about to blow a kiss!

I agree caroline. I think dancing at the professional level or even as a serious hobbyist, would require that the person draws on something, whether it be some influence based on the dance style they are doing..
 

lizaj

New member
Yes looking pleased is a look you can effect and I don't understand why dancers don't make the effort.
(I do understand nerves and "regretting teacher twisted my arm to do this "but I am not meaning this.)
I wonder if they mistakedly believe they are better "looking cool".

A dancer in another city said she had witnessed one talented dancer who managed not to convey the warmth of Egyptian style because what came across to her was a superiority and condescention. Maybe she didn't mean it but that the whole point of developing that stage presence/ personaity/ attitude that makes someone a professional. Even if you really don't want to be at an event once committed you do indeed "fake" it!

yes even at "amateur "events, I have danced feeling like sh£te because I was comitted to perform/organise etc. I've danced with a badly sprained ankle..luckily it was a comedic turn:D..why? Because I would have let my dancing partner down and I "enjoyed" myself.
You can be as smart as paint in your technique but go out there with the wrong attitude/approach and your audience will stiffen up and switch off.
You have train in that, be prepared to listen to advice from those who have been on the stage, in the restaurant. It doesn't matter how old we are, how long we have been at it..you have to take it all on board.

I am always so impressed by dancers like Lorna, Lulu, Meissoun,Wendy et al at JoY who got up on the stage and "sparkled" after days of travelling, teaching etc.
But then they can not only dance beautifully but are "pros" with a pro attitude. Not only that these ladies great on stage but pleasant when meeting their audience.
It takes me back (oh old woman reminices on a tale told before) to meeting Dame Margaret Rutherford. fabulous actress and kind hearted lady who took 2 teenagers out of the rain at the stage door and talked to us like we were important to her. Star!
 

Freddie

New member
Well I am not so sure that everyone can rely on 'being themselves' for a performance.

What does that mean exactly?

I disagree - I hardly ever "act" when I perform. I am pretty much always myself, but the difference is that the "self" that is being projected is one that matches the music, the mood of the environment I'm in and the mood I want to take that environment to.

I certainly wouldn't let the "bad hair day" or other difficulties get in the way of that.

In 2004 I danced for a wedding - the groom was Egyptian, the bride was Spanish. I was booked for a 40 min show and wasn't feeling very well. My shoulder was killing me and I was having difficulty breathing. I really felt like lying down in a corner, but I had been booked, I was there, and I was as ready as I was ever going to be. So I did the show, and the audience and clients were happy. I did my cane number even though my shoulder was really hurting.

I went straight home to bed afterwards, and the next day was rushed to hospital with pleurisy and pneumonia and was stuck there for two weeks, with a further six weeks of recuperation.

Being yourself does not necessarily mean showing any discomfort or difficulties that you may be facing that day or that week. That's just being unprofessional.
 

Freddie

New member
Yes looking pleased is a look you can effect and I don't understand why dancers don't make the effort.

But when you start to "effect" looks, then there is no "spark". It has to come from within and not be artificial.

I am always so impressed by dancers like Lorna, Lulu, Meissoun,Wendy et al at JoY who got up on the stage and "sparkled" after days of travelling, teaching etc.
But then they can not only dance beautifully but are "pros" with a pro attitude. Not only that these ladies great on stage but pleasant when meeting their audience.

Now that's what I call being professional. I admire these folks so much.
 

Kharis

New member
Yes looking pleased is a look you can effect and I don't understand why dancers don't make the effort.
(I do understand nerves and "regretting teacher twisted my arm to do this "but I am not meaning this.)
I wonder if they mistakedly believe they are better "looking cool".

A dancer in another city said she had witnessed one talented dancer who managed not to convey the warmth of Egyptian style because what came across to her was a superiority and condescention. Maybe she didn't mean it but that the whole point of developing that stage presence/ personaity/ attitude that makes someone a professional. Even if you really don't want to be at an event once committed you do indeed "fake" it!

yes even at "amateur "events, I have danced feeling like sh£te because I was comitted to perform/organise etc. I've danced with a badly sprained ankle..luckily it was a comedic turn:D..why? Because I would have let my dancing partner down and I "enjoyed" myself.
You can be as smart as paint in your technique but go out there with the wrong attitude/approach and your audience will stiffen up and switch off.
You have train in that, be prepared to listen to advice from those who have been on the stage, in the restaurant. It doesn't matter how old we are, how long we have been at it..you have to take it all on board.

Most of us have most likely been in the position where we have to perform under duress. I know I have. And yes, I put on a face, but I don't put on someone else's face, I draw on what I have inside myself. Pulling out some energy or spark can be torture when you've had to dance in the face of extreme grief or stress. My point was that the dancer in question was advised to emote in a way that felt wrong and alien to her and made her feel uncomfortable. Some folks who are outgoing find it easy to 'act' and their own natural confidence makes this easy for them. For others it's not so easy, and to try to project in the way someone else does may go against the grain and therefore can tend to look phony. So, even if a dancer is shy or less outgoing they can still come across as charming and watcheable, though of course, they must learn to exude confidence and connect with the audience.
 

Kharis

New member
But when you start to "effect" looks, then there is no "spark". It has to come from within and not be artificial.

yes, this was my point also. Nothing is more cringeworthy than a dancer who tries too hard... be it with the over sexual bit or the Dina face pulling.
 

gisela

Super Moderator
I think (kind of ironic though) that it takes A LOT of practice to be oneself on stage. And to be natural in the face. When I saw myself on video the first time I was amazed that what I had thought and felt was a natural, relaxed, pleasant smile was more like interchanging between a cringe and a huge underbite"smile". I don't believe that was truly me, even though that was my natural unpracticed expression at the time. I know some friends too have discovered they do weird faces when performing. I think it comes from nervousness, concentration, etc and not being aware of your face.
Now I do practice my facial-expressions but not like "this looks good and this doesn't" but more being aware of what I feel in the different parts of the music and letting it change my face.
Oh I just remembered, I have practiced my smile. It was not flattering with the underbite thing.
 

lizaj

New member
But when you start to "effect" looks, then there is no "spark". It has to come from within and not be artificial.



Now that's what I call being professional. I admire these folks so much.

Ah well being able to "effect" and fool 'em all into thinking it all comes naturally is the real hard work. That to me is the fantastic thing about this dance. Good Egyptian style dancers- both Egyptian and Western- make it all look so natural and relaxed when it's all about hard work and control.
Knowing you as a dancer, you always convey your joy in the dance, you're a warm dancer and not only does that come naturally but I know you've have to work hard as well.
But there will be dancers who are talented technically and don't find that warmth comes as easily and they will need to "act" the part.
This doesn't mean to say we become a carbon copy super-grin Barbie. there will always be a part of us in the performance.
I think of some of the successful UK dancers I have seen - all professional in approach but all very different in stage persona- personally putting a stamp on what they do while "acting the part " from the minute they step on the stage to that disappearing nto the wings: Kharis and Caroline, Candi and Tracy, Maria and Anne.
 

Freddie

New member
Ah well being able to "effect" and fool 'em all into thinking it all comes naturally is the real hard work. That to me is the fantastic thing about this dance. Good Egyptian style dancers- both Egyptian and Western- make it all look so natural and relaxed when it's all about hard work and control.

Yes, but is it "acting"? Or is the dancer merely compartmentalising and just bringing out the parts of her inner self that she wishes to display or feels it appropriate to display at the time?

I have always thought there are two types of "actor". Firstly, the type that is acting "through themselves", keeping their persona real whilst acting what the character would be feeling, through their own "personality filter". Sean Connery is a good example of this. Then there's the type who disregards their own persona completely to totally embody the fictitious character's persona.

But when I dance I don't act at all. I am a very rubbish actor, always have been. But I can access different areas of my emotional, inner self and bring those forward, and pushing aside the crap that I don't want exhibiting to the world at large.

Knowing you as a dancer, you always convey your joy in the dance, you're a warm dancer and not only does that come naturally but I know you've have to work hard as well.

Well it's a long time since you've seen me do a full set and I hope I'm not just doing "joy" all the time these days. I do love dancing, and generallly it makes me feel joyous, but there are some pieces of music that just don't shout "joy" to me and so I don't express joyfulness when I dance to those tracks.

As to working hard, yes re. technique, but no, not when it comes to self-expression. I was a presenter and public speaker long before I was a dancer and I use exactly the same techniques when it comes to expressing feelings. So yes that side of it comes naturally. Acting doesn't come at all naturally to me - I envy those for whom it does.

But there will be dancers who are talented technically and don't find that warmth comes as easily and they will need to "act" the part.
This doesn't mean to say we become a carbon copy super-grin Barbie. there will always be a part of us in the performance.

Indeed. But if youa re going to act, do it well. Otherwise it will be transparently insincere. And I see a heck of a lot of that, even by so-called "pros".

I think of some of the successful UK dancers I have seen - all professional in approach but all very different in stage persona- personally putting a stamp on what they do while "acting the part " from the minute they step on the stage to that disappearing nto the wings: Kharis and Caroline, Candi and Tracy, Maria and Anne.

I've only ever seen Caroline acting, I have never seen any of the others doing a "theatrical" performance as such. I thought they were expressing themselves, not acting, when I saw them dance.

Kharis, are you acting when you dance?
 

Caroline_afifi

New member
Yes, but is it "acting"? Or is the dancer merely compartmentalising and just bringing out the parts of her inner self that she wishes to display or feels it appropriate to display at the time?

When I was at Drama school, that is how we were taught to act.

I have always thought there are two types of "actor". Firstly, the type that is acting "through themselves", keeping their persona real whilst acting what the character would be feeling, through their own "personality filter". Sean Connery is a good example of this. Then there's the type who disregards their own persona completely to totally embody the fictitious character's persona.

I dont mean we literally act like an actress does, unless it is a role in a dance drama in theatre. I mean like you say, we just have different names for it.

But when I dance I don't act at all. I am a very rubbish actor, always have been. But I can access different areas of my emotional, inner self and bring those forward, and pushing aside the crap that I don't want exhibiting to the world at large.

That is exactly what I mean. For some, being themselves maywell ne what they feel in terms of fear, nerves, pissed off, insecure etc. those who havent master the other stuff maywell exhibit all of these things or be totally unaware of the expression on their faces and what it is saying to people.


Well it's a long time since you've seen me do a full set and I hope I'm not just doing "joy" all the time these days. I do love dancing, and generallly it makes me feel joyous, but there are some pieces of music that just don't shout "joy" to me and so I don't express joyfulness when I dance to those tracks.

As to working hard, yes re. technique, but no, not when it comes to self-expression. I was a presenter and public speaker long before I was a dancer and I use exactly the same techniques when it comes to expressing feelings. So yes that side of it comes naturally. Acting doesn't come at all naturally to me - I envy those for whom it does.

Again, it all comes down to how you define acting.

Indeed. But if youa re going to act, do it well. Otherwise it will be transparently insincere. And I see a heck of a lot of that, even by so-called "pros".

Yes, this happens. Some people find it very difficult.

I've only ever seen Caroline acting, I have never seen any of the others doing a "theatrical" performance as such. I thought they were expressing themselves, not acting, when I saw them dance.

Kharis, are you acting when you dance?

Have you only seen me perform in Dance Drama?

Maybe you were back stage when we did the Unity Theatre showcase?

But you have seen me dance informally and that is a different story if course.

Like I said, acting is something I only do when under duress and need to... or on stage in an acting capacity.
 
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Caroline_afifi

New member
Most of us have most likely been in the position where we have to perform under duress. I know I have. And yes, I put on a face, but I don't put on someone else's face, I draw on what I have inside myself. Pulling out some energy or spark can be torture when you've had to dance in the face of extreme grief or stress.

Perhaps i should remove the word and 'acting' and replace it with...?

I dunno, but the word acting seems to be confusing the issue.

I would define the above as 'an act' meaning the same thing.

http://www.bellydanceforums.net/picture.php?albumid=135&pictureid=750

Houda has sparks flying off every part of her being when she dances!

With regards to 'Spark', I dont mean false expression or anything else like that.

face pulling... well that can be part of natural expression as is talking with the hands. We tend to pull alot of funny faces during the act of sex and in most other things that bring us joy so why should dance be so different?


'Spark' is perhaps a 'certain' something that shines through and sometimes needs teasing out of people.
 
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