Art versus Entertainment

deelybopper · May 16, 2008

Hi Caroline!

Merry-go-round describes it exactly!!! I spend probably waaaay too much time thinking about this sort of thing

I also agree with Suheir that all entertainment is art...perhaps we need a Venn diagram...entertainment as a subset of art...

It's great that the Arabic Arts Festival gets supported by the ACE! And of course, dance is a part of that...so that's a step on the road. And you're right - validating what we do as an art would bring funding to those who can't currently afford the cost of developing themselves as an artist (training, costumes, etc). I struggle sometimes to see how we can do this though as we always seem to be struggling against pre-conceptions about what we do - it's social function, it's value in it's original cultures, oh don't get me started

cathy · May 16, 2008

Some excellent points from Deelybopper and others!

Caroline, if you have the chance at Raks Brittania I definitely suggest your trying to have a conversation with Morocco about all this, which she has been engaged with for a very long time. I think you will find she will not only say yes to all of the points below quite passionately, but also tell you how she has worked long and hard to make it so:

Oriental dance is a form of cultural entertainment but is not "random tail twitching" or designed to sexually entice, it is an art form as well. (I *think* she would say that the more formal "art" part takes more work to appreciate in some way but feel less sure here)
Oriental dance should be respected on a par with other ethnic dances
Dance in general should be respected on a par with other art forms
Dancers be judged on the basis of their skill vs. their national or cultural origin
Middle Eastern dance teachers should be accorded respect based on their knowledge and skill, instead of their cultural/national origins, gender, or looks
Art grants money should be distributed more equitably

(and she would add use of the misnomer "belly dance" does no favors to getting acceptance for the art)

There is also the issue of how it is looked (often down) upon in the culture of origin, and the class/religion/sexism aspects of that both in east and west, but that's another separate thread or thousand.

Cathy

Caroline_afifi · May 16, 2008

cathy said:
Some excellent points from Deelybopper and others!

Caroline, if you have the chance at Raks Brittania I definitely suggest your trying to have a conversation with Morocco about all this, which she has been engaged with for a very long time. I think you will find she will not only say yes to all of the points below quite passionately, but also tell you how she has worked long and hard to make it so:

Oriental dance is a form of cultural entertainment but is not "random tail twitching" or designed to sexually entice, it is an art form as well. (I *think* she would say that the more formal "art" part takes more work to appreciate in some way but feel less sure here)
Oriental dance should be respected on a par with other ethnic dances
Dance in general should be respected on a par with other art forms
Dancers be judged on the basis of their skill vs. their national or cultural origin
Middle Eastern dance teachers should be accorded respect based on their knowledge and skill, instead of their cultural/national origins, gender, or looks
Art grants money should be distributed more equitably

(and she would add use of the misnomer "belly dance" does no favors to getting acceptance for the art)

There is also the issue of how it is looked (often down) upon in the culture of origin, and the class/religion/sexism aspects of that both in east and west, but that's another separate thread or thousand.

Cathy

Thanks for this!
I actually already agree and had come to those conclusions myself. It is more about backing it up with evidence and perhaps contrasting situations and experience of others.
It is more about the question why?
I have some answers already, and covered some in play I wrote two years ago, but, the more the merrier from everyone and I shall certainly try and talk to Morocco at Raqs.
I am very interested to know how other international art institutions view/accept this dance and on what basis.

cathy · May 16, 2008

Caroline_afifi said:
Thanks for this!
I actually already agree and had come to those conclusions myself. It is more about backing it up with evidence and perhaps contrasting situations and experience of others.
It is more about the question why?
I have some answers already, and covered some in play I wrote two years ago, but, the more the merrier from everyone and I shall certainly try and talk to Morocco at Raqs.
I am very interested to know how other international art institutions view/accept this dance and on what basis.

Do you mean why is Oriental dance not yet on a par with other dance forms?
Why isn't dance on a par with other art forms (though a case could be made otherwise)
Or why are some things labeled art vs. entertainment, and is it the case that things labeled entertainment are considered less worthy of focussed study and grants money?
Or something else?
I am interested in all this as well, the arts institutions and how and why they make decisions about how they give grants, the issue of being from the culture, etc. I think part of it is that these institutions are often not qualified to assess the field in so many art forms, and so they use rules of thumb. Maybe they should hire experts to advise them in the various fields. But they might not know even how to choose the experts!

Cathy

Caroline_afifi · May 16, 2008

cathy said:
Do you mean why is Oriental dance not yet on a par with other dance forms?
Why isn't dance on a par with other art forms (though a case could be made otherwise)
Or why are some things labeled art vs. entertainment, and is it the case that things labeled entertainment are considered less worthy of focussed study and grants money?
Or something else?
I am interested in all this as well, the arts institutions and how and why they make decisions about how they give grants, the issue of being from the culture, etc. I think part of it is that these institutions are often not qualified to assess the field in so many art forms, and so they use rules of thumb. Maybe they should hire experts to advise them in the various fields. But they might not know even how to choose the experts!

Cathy

And what you get is artists who know nothing about Arabs and Arabs who know nothing about art, I have been in these meetings believe me! ha ha

LAAF (Lpool Arab Arts Festival) is fine and we are a great team ,it is other people we often come up against.

all the statements you made in your other post, 'why?' and validating this.

Why should woman of non Arab culture get funding? why is it an art and not cabaret etc etc, why why why?

Bear in mind, it is often Arabs in organisation asking these questions, not just ACE.
I also attended training with ACE called 'The Arts and Islam'.
According to this, non of us should be dancing.
For the sake of Art and what we do (meaning dance), we have to seperate religon and culture to keep the peace. The whole thing is hugely complex and it has been part of my work for almost nine years now.

Reen.Blom · May 16, 2008

To me Art is about expressing emotions, as an artist through creation process or as part of the 'audience'. I believe that's the greatest power of it to break the borders, language and even culture barriers.

Enterntainment? Well I do go to a museum, because it would make me feel good, by appealing to some deeper layers of my soul, almost like going to church. Same goes for theatre or concert or any other show including belly dance. I think art is like a separate language conveys emotions and ideas through symbols.

Art trying to make a living? Here you get your entertainment. When artist creates something to express something- that's art. When he tries to sell it- entertainment.

Caroline_afifi · May 16, 2008

Reen.Blom said:
To me Art is about expressing emotions, as an artist through creation process or as part of the 'audience'. I believe that's the greatest power of it to break the borders, language and even culture barriers

.

yes, many aspects of art challenge us.

Reen.Blom said:
Art trying to make a living? Here you get your entertainment. When artist creates something to express something- that's art. When he tries to sell it- entertainment.

Well some definately feel that trying to make a living often affects artistic content as it is is perhaps driven by other needs etc. but people who become very successful at what they do eventually get to pick and choose what they partcipate in. It happens in all aspects of performance.

Artists can often make a good living from what they do but its good business that makes them millionaires perhaps? I dont know.

belly_dancer · May 17, 2008

Caroline_afifi said:
yes, many aspects of art challenge us.

.

Reen.Blom said:
Art trying to make a living? Here you get your entertainment. When artist creates something to express something- that's art. When he tries to sell it- entertainment.

Caroline_afifi said:
Well some definately feel that trying to make a living often affects artistic content as it is is perhaps driven by other needs etc. but people who become very successful at what they do eventually get to pick and choose what they partcipate in. It happens in all aspects of performance.

Artists can often make a good living from what they do but its good business that makes them millionaires perhaps? I dont know.

of course lots of "artists" are not "rich" til they're dead!!!!

Caroline_afifi · May 17, 2008

Caroline_afifi said:
yes, many aspects of art challenge us.

.

belly_dancer said:
of course lots of "artists" are not "rich" til they're dead!!!!

Bad news for all of us then!! :lol:

adiemus · May 17, 2008

I paint and take photographs - oh and used to dance ballet, play classical piano, clarinet, write poetry and novels. All of these - oh! and bellydance also - communicate concepts and emotions. THAT is what these 'art'forms are supposed to do. Perhaps that is one of the main differences between 'art' and 'culture' - bellydance? well it has developed from something we do to have fun, into something we do to entertain and all the time communicating emotions. Can't think why it wouldn't receive arts funding, apart from it being a minority artform, oh and mainly women are involved in it...

Pia · May 17, 2008

adiemus said:
I paint and take photographs - oh and used to dance ballet, play classical piano, clarinet, write poetry and novels. All of these - oh! and bellydance also - communicate concepts and emotions. THAT is what these 'art'forms are supposed to do. Perhaps that is one of the main differences between 'art' and 'culture' - bellydance? well it has developed from something we do to have fun, into something we do to entertain and all the time communicating emotions. Can't think why it wouldn't receive arts funding, apart from it being a minority artform, oh and mainly women are involved in it...

I'd guess that you are correct and that we are probably the wrong minority,also many people have an idea that to be art something should be serious or elitist.

Farasha Hanem · May 17, 2008

gisela said:
I don't believe in labeling a whole genre as art or entertainment. IMO we have or learn some tools or different languages like dance, writing, music etc and it's what we choose to do with that that decides if it's art or not, and of course it varies from person to person. F ex I do ceramics. When I make a bowl which is meant to be used and has no other history in it other than it's a bowl and you use it for eating something, then I'm in NO WAY ever going to say that's art. The next second I can swith to making a sculpture in which I try to express something and create a mood in the viewer. The I have NO PROBLEM calling it art. Same person, same material, same process, same education, different purpose.

It would be the same way of thinking in bellydance for me. I just have to translate it into ceramics to understand my own point haha

I don't feel the snobbery. I think Art is the most wonderful thing ever and I am sad that some people are afraid of it.

Awww, I wanted to give you rep, but it wouldn't let me.

adiemus · May 17, 2008

I'd hate it if everything had to be 'serious' to get funding as 'art'!!!

Pia · May 17, 2008

adiemus said:
I'd hate it if everything had to be 'serious' to get funding as 'art'!!!

That seems to be the way its going in the UK at the moment-unless your group is viewed as an oppressed minority ( funding was recently given to a group who wanted to promote giunea pigs as a healthy meat group) or challenging in some way,it does'nt count

Caroline_afifi · May 17, 2008

Pia said:
That seems to be the way its going in the UK at the moment-unless your group is viewed as an oppressed minority ( funding was recently given to a group who wanted to promote giunea pigs as a healthy meat group) or challenging in some way,it does'nt count

WHAT??? I hope nothing like that ends up in our supermarkets.

I think funding is not related to art that is serious as I have known other artistic ventures recievce funding and they have been very funny.

You do have to be serious about what you do, and you do have to be able to discuss 'why' answer questions and know your stuff.
This is not in relation to some kind of historical context for the dance, it is about what you are doing what your aims are, and what your piece project is about and how it fits in with their overall aims and objectives in the funding criteria.

Defensive retorts simly wont do! :lol:

Reen.Blom · May 17, 2008

Caroline_afifi said:
.

yes, many aspects of art challenge us.

Well some definately feel that trying to make a living often affects artistic content as it is is perhaps driven by other needs etc. but people who become very successful at what they do eventually get to pick and choose what they partcipate in. It happens in all aspects of performance.

Artists can often make a good living from what they do but its good business that makes them millionaires perhaps? I dont know.

My fiance's mother is an artist. She says she always had to paint "what people like" because she HAD to sell her paintings to pay the bills, and often she would not even like what she made.... Recently she started a new phase in her painting, and she says that if she does not sell it, she can keep it in her own house, because she likes it. And now she is free to express herself and exeriment again....

It is not that she didnt like her previous work, or that it was not art.... but it was sort of art with its soul gone- for the artist. Obviously the people that bought it, were inspired about it. But still... is it where aret became entertainment?

Salome · May 17, 2008

I am interested in the AM CAB situation and especially on hearing that it was a label given to a certain aspect of the dance in an attempt to put it down. If this was the case then why do people use it? Is it like gay people calling themself queer?

Back in the day, restaurant/clubs where middle eastern food, dance and music were happening were, I hear, referred to by the musicians etc. as cabarets here in the states. And accurately so considering the definition for the word cabaret

. Fast forward from the late 50's till late 60's where you start having more than one style of "belly dance". You've got Jamilia's Bal Anot, which took its own path and Americans starting to come back from journey's to Turkey and North Africa, bringing back traditional folk dances etc. People in the 'community' began using the term cabaret belly dance as a term to label that specific style, the American Cabaret or am cab style. The term itself is not offensive or negative or a put down. There are many factors as to why it has kind of fell out of circulation... that I'm too tired to ramble about right now and it would be rambling (it's 2 am, ackkk!)

Caroline_afifi · May 17, 2008

Salome said:
Back in the day, restaurant/clubs where middle eastern food, dance and music were happening were, I hear, referred to by the musicians etc. as cabarets here in the states. And accurately so considering the definition for the word cabaret . Fast forward from the late 50's till late 60's where you start having more than one style of "belly dance". You've got Jamilia's Bal Anot, which took its own path and Americans starting to come back from journey's to Turkey and North Africa, bringing back traditional folk dances etc. People in the 'community' began using the term cabaret belly dance as a term to label that specific style, the American Cabaret or am cab style. The term itself is not offensive or negative or a put down. There are many factors as to why it has kind of fell out of circulation... that I'm too tired to ramble about right now and it would be rambling (it's 2 am, ackkk!)

Thanks for the explanation. When your not so tired I would love to hear more. I am looking at the global explotion of MED and how is it evolving at the moment. I know little about the States really.

Caroline_afifi · May 17, 2008

Reen.Blom said:
Reen.Blom said:

My fiance's mother is an artist. She says she always had to paint "what people like" because she HAD to sell her paintings to pay the bills, and often she would not even like what she made.... Recently she started a new phase in her painting, and she says that if she does not sell it, she can keep it in her own house, because she likes it. And now she is free to express herself and exeriment again....

It is not that she didnt like her previous work, or that it was not art.... but it was sort of art with its soul gone- for the artist. Obviously the people that bought it, were inspired about it. But still... is it where aret became entertainment?

Click to expand...

Well it could be were the body becomes a tool to express what someone else wants or needs.
Painting what some else wants to see is not communicating anything of your own, you are a tool.
My experience of restaurant dancing was a bit like this. I was a tool and an object. I was there to put bums on seats and keep the punters happy.
I did this for years and it funded my valuable training in this dance which enabled me to focus on what made me happy and think about why that often made me so miserable. I love doing weddings and parties because they book 'me' and my choice of dancing with my moves and do's and wont do's.
But I found my voice in the theatre and I love to use dance to express a variety of issues and challenge as well as dance purely for the joy of it.

Reen.Blom · May 17, 2008

Caroline_afifi said:
Well it could be were the body becomes a tool to express what someone else wants or needs.
Painting what some else wants to see is not communicating anything of your own, you are a tool.
My experience of restaurant dancing was a bit like this. I was a tool and an object. I was there to put bums on seats and keep the punters happy.
I did this for years and it funded my valuable training in this dance which enabled me to focus on what made me happy and think about why that often made me so miserable. I love doing weddings and parties because they book 'me' and my choice of dancing with my moves and do's and wont do's.
But I found my voice in the theatre and I love to use dance to express a variety of issues and challenge as well as dance purely for the joy of it.

How about dance on stage? Not in a restaurant, where dance is just to complement the meal...lol How about dancing for yourself with no audience?

I think if artist creates something to express her/himself, emotions, feelings, ideas- not nessesarily for anyone to see- and without being influenced by expectations of others- is it still entertainment? I think its art. Yep, when she/he creates something with other people in mind, does it become entertainment? Ideally is when the product of creation IS expression of the artist and at the same time embraced by the audience, without compromising. That must be a blessing.

Art versus Entertainment

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