I just discovered Suraya Hilal!

Caroline_afifi

New member
This is true. And every profession does have it's experts, who generally research and write about their subject to enable others to share this knowledge. The problem with bellydance is that even if you do write about it, as with Wendy Bounaventura, you still get slated for not getting your facts right. So, just who is an 'expert' in this dance? Is it possible to be an expert? Has anybody studied it for long enough and researched it thoroughly enough? Does anyone have a degree in it or some other academical qualification that justifies being expert?

Wendy wrote a book, that does not make her an expert in all that is Belly dance.

I think also Serpent of the Nile was written at a time there was little else and no computers, so research was taken from books and travel.

By the way, the book has been updated and will be out soon.

People can be 'armchair buffs' too.... they are often the ones with the most fascinating snippets.
 

Caroline_afifi

New member
This is right. It's what makes people happy at the end of the day. So is there a need to dissect the dance and proclaim what is right and what is not right about it? Or should it just remain a dance that everybody can enjoy?

I was meaning this in terms of how long people spent thinking about it.

Personally I always think there is a need to dissect, it is how we have come to understand things and how they work.
 

Kharis

New member
I think also Serpent of the Nile was written at a time there was little else and no computers, so research was taken from books and travel.

By the way, the book has been updated and will be out soon.

I should think that books and travel are the best forms of research. Wikipedia for example, has just been exposed as being far from accurate.
 

shiradotnet

Well-known member
Wikipedia for example, has just been exposed as being far from accurate.

Just for curiosity's sake, why do you say, "...just been exposed"? Was there some recent incident?

From its inception, I've always figured Wikipedia was only as good as its contributors. There's no peer review, no real editor to challenge the contributors on the quality of their statements. Anyone with a pet theory, no matter how far off the lunatic fringe it is, can make it seem legitimate by sticking it in Wikipedia.

Hmmm, maybe I should go edit Wikipedia's belly dance entry to say that belly dancing was brought to earth by the same space aliens who created the civilization of Atlantis and built the pyramids at Giza....
 

Kashmir

New member
I should think that books and travel are the best forms of research. Wikipedia for example, has just been exposed as being far from accurate.
Wikipedia has always had the fatal flaw of being hijacked by misinformed zealots. I remember trying to correct some of the worst crap years back only to return later and find someone had reinstated their pet theory/myth/cult. And it isn't just belly dance, a friend working in a scientific field wrote some technical articles only to find people did a similar thing - ie replaced information based on 30 years research with urban myths.

Books are only useful if they actually reflect reality. Wendy's books tend to be generated from another space. Funniest thing was one of her later books actually had references - but when you checked them out she was referencing her own "Serpent of the Nile" - which has been slated by any one with any knowledge as pretty but vacuous.

Travel is good - providing you don't just do tourist.
 

Phoebedances

New member
I know the clip is just a small sample of her dancing, but purely on what she does in the clip, I found it a little.. silly? Running around veil on head, looking a bit like she's being chased in a market place by over zealous shopkeepers who want to sell her something a bit less nun-like? Anyway, that was the thought that popped into my head watching that little bit. Doesn't make me want to search the net for more.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. I'll take Fifi or Dina or Orit any day. :D
 

Maria_Aya

New member
I understand the motives of the likes of Soraya Hilal and Wendy in that they wanted to bring a beautiful dance into a different light and onto a different stage. Of course by doing so they may be seen as automatically condemning those practitioners who don't follow their mission. .

I really dont care about what someone does, but I do care when he/she calls is "the only one that teach the authentic thing" special when its farrrrrrrrrrrrrr away from authentic.

The influence of these things spread and stay into peoples mind, i still have students that come and ask me with horror:
But you are on the balls of your feet !!!! only loose women ethics dance this way !!! :mad:
 

Kharis

New member
Just for curiosity's sake, why do you say, "...just been exposed"? Was there some recent incident?

From its inception, I've always figured Wikipedia was only as good as its contributors. There's no peer review, no real editor to challenge the contributors on the quality of their statements. Anyone with a pet theory, no matter how far off the lunatic fringe it is, can make it seem legitimate by sticking it in Wikipedia.

Hmmm, maybe I should go edit Wikipedia's belly dance entry to say that belly dancing was brought to earth by the same space aliens who created the civilization of Atlantis and built the pyramids at Giza....


Yes there was. There was an article about it. Wiki is not something I generally ever use for reference, to be honest, as I know it's open to edit. But some folks may think it's 100 percent accurate and it has been used for reference on a thread or two, Bhuz I think. I'm sure it's generally pretty accurate but it's not something I'd take a gospel.
 

Kharis

New member
I know the clip is just a small sample of her dancing, but purely on what she does in the clip, I found it a little.. silly? Running around veil on head, looking a bit like she's being chased in a market place by over zealous shopkeepers who want to sell her something a bit less nun-like? Anyway, that was the thought that popped into my head watching that little bit. Doesn't make me want to search the net for more.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. I'll take Fifi or Dina or Orit any day. :D

Me too, but as Caroline pointed out "how can we judge what is too much or too little and what constitutes 'a life'." Obviously, this is Suraya Hilal's passion/obsession and who are we to criticise her? We may watch her and think, For God's sake...get it right!" But to her, it is right. That's her perspective, I guess. Each to their own, etc, etc...:rolleyes:
 

CarolineT

New member
I went to see Oscillations too. It was the worst theatre experience of my life ever and I've sat through some dire amateur dramatic performances in my time!

It was awful, there was nothing that even vaguely resembled arabic dance of any style. I love lots of dance forms so could cope with that if it was good contemporary dance but it wasn't. The lighting was too bright and cold, the live musicians were good but the music had no drama, no peaks or troughs - more like Egyptian elevator music. The range of movement was incredibly limited and there was no emotional expression what so ever. I could go on but I would become as boring as Oscillations.

What was most telling for me is that a companion who worshipped Hilal and is Raq Sharqi Society trained was moved to tears by the performance. Unfortunately that was because she was so upset at how bad it was, and her idol had toppled she described it like finding out Father Christmas didn't exist as a child.

I brought no prior prejudice to that performance I judged it by my reaction on the night and I would not go to see her again.
 

Irene

New member
Well,
I've studied for two years with a Greek student of a Cypriot -Greek student of Hilal. Maybe it is because we're all Mediterraneans, but the style was more joyful in this version.
And it has some very nice insights. (For instance, I like the way they teach camels)

I understand where Hilal was coming from. She comes from a traditional Yemeni family, and she was taught to consider dance as immoral. So, as she loved dance, when she develop her own style and own school and company, she tried to "sanitize" oriental dance so that it is dissociated from cabaret, whores, alluring gestures, the ass-revolving-in-the-face-of-the-audience, provocative costuming etc... to give it again an artistic status.
Yes it is very much Egyptian style oriental dance (when they do what they call raqs sharqi). Stripped of the cabaret moves, that is. No floorwork, no belly movements, just hips and chest basically, with beautifully inventive arms. (Otherwise, it has most of the moves you are familiar with. Sometimes more restrained, I would say)
Yes it is non-oriental dance, but modern dance (when they do the fusion Hilal style)

I was very happy to have studied this, and my instructor Nellie, is a very good teacher. I also took a veil workshop from the Cypriot teacher, Litta Petrou + an Englishwoman from the Hilal troupe (don't remember her name now, very cheerful and nice) who taught us baladi style. Actually veilwork is not Egyptian at all, so this is fusion, but beautiful nevertheless.

I like many of the things they teach, but I wouldn't want to be obliged to follow their "rules" or to exclude some movements, or to be obliged to only do this and not something else. I was told that Hilal refused to take students who had studied with other teachers, and of course didn't allow her own students to study other styles with someone else.
I like the fact that they insist on "no belly showing, no legs showing". After all it's not Egyptian traditional, it was imported from Hollywood movies of the '20s and '30s. Nobody in Egypt danced with a bare belly before that. On the other hand, they also say "no sequins, no excessive decoration on the costume, just a coin belt will do". I bought her videos, and frankly, dancing covered up like a nun in a grey formless thing is not my cup of tea. On the other hand, there is a part where she dances, in a lame galabbeya, and she is really stunning.
Can you imagine that my teacher never shared with us the music coming from her teacher which she used in class and for class performances (we had asked for a copy in order to be able to practice at home), because the teacher was afraid that someone would use them improperly - in a nightclub setting or whatever? When I pointed out that most of this music is on sale online at the Hilal website and elsewhere, she was a bit surprised....

All this is very restrictive and makes me feel stiffled. I want the freedom to experiment with many things if I choose to.
 

lizaj

New member
I went to see Oscillations too. It was the worst theatre experience of my life ever and I've sat through some dire amateur dramatic performances in my time!

It was awful, there was nothing that even vaguely resembled arabic dance of any style. I love lots of dance forms so could cope with that if it was good contemporary dance but it wasn't. The lighting was too bright and cold, the live musicians were good but the music had no drama, no peaks or troughs - more like Egyptian elevator music. The range of movement was incredibly limited and there was no emotional expression what so ever. I could go on but I would become as boring as Oscillations.

What was most telling for me is that a companion who worshipped Hilal and is Raq Sharqi Society trained was moved to tears by the performance. Unfortunately that was because she was so upset at how bad it was, and her idol had toppled she described it like finding out Father Christmas didn't exist as a child.

I brought no prior prejudice to that performance I judged it by my reaction on the night and I would not go to see her again.

The recent Mosaic magazine contained a positive review so someone obviously liked it!
But I do hope folks gave some feedback to performers so that they are not deluded by people's "politeness". This is a dancer of strength and stature so she deserves to know. I do hope she is not prepared to "dine out on her fame" and thus produce any old flannel.
 

Aniseteph

New member
Can you imagine that my teacher never shared with us the music coming from her teacher which she used in class and for class performances (we had asked for a copy in order to be able to practice at home), because the teacher was afraid that someone would use them improperly - in a nightclub setting or whatever? When I pointed out that most of this music is on sale online at the Hilal website and elsewhere, she was a bit surprised.....

Oh dear, talk about doomed control freakery :lol:

Anyhoo, I just looked at that site and the only CD at the moment "contains some of the best Sharqi music of the 50s and 60s. These pieces written by the great composers Farid Al Atrash and Mohammed Abdel Wahab reflect the musical development of Sharqi music in this period." So, 2 piece costumes and nightclubs totally inappropriate then... :confused:

It all sounds way too cultish to me... <runs away in opposite direction joyfully shedding sequins :D>
 

Caroline_afifi

New member
Well,
I've studied for two years with a Greek student of a Cypriot -Greek student of Hilal. Maybe it is because we're all Mediterraneans, but the style was more joyful in this version.
And it has some very nice insights. (For instance, I like the way they teach camels)

Yes.

I understand where Hilal was coming from. She comes from a traditional Yemeni family, and she was taught to consider dance as immoral.

I do understand this. It is the lengths she goes to do this which disturbs me. It is not normal, it is controlling and unhealthy.


So, as she loved dance, when she develop her own style and own school and company, she tried to "sanitize" oriental dance so that it is dissociated from cabaret, whores, alluring gestures, the ass-revolving-in-the-face-of-the-audience, provocative costuming etc... to give it again an artistic status.

And that is wht she did. Through working with arts organisations, I know that funding is more likely to go to someone in a drab galabiya than someone in a single sequin. True working class art and tastes are really not worth throwing your money at. What is needed is some Middle/upper class refined lady to turn it into real art... I am sure you get my point.;)


Yes it is very much Egyptian style oriental dance

Travelling alot ot Egypt and then living there for a while made me realsie that there is nothing 'Egyptian' about what she does.

Like you said, she is Yemeni and 'Belly dance/ Raqs Sharqi' is not part of their culture and was imported through music and films like everwhere else.

One thing I do know quite a bit about is Yemeni culture. I was trustee for the Liverpool Yemeni Arabic club and which later became the Liverpool Arab Club for 7 years. Our biggest population of Arabs in Liverpool is Yemeni.


(when they do what they call raqs sharqi). Stripped of the cabaret moves, that is. No floorwork, no belly movements, just hips and chest basically, with beautifully inventive arms. (Otherwise, it has most of the moves you are familiar with. Sometimes more restrained, I would say)
Yes it is non-oriental dance, but modern dance (when they do the fusion Hilal style)

I think 'fusion' is more accurate. It is a stylised form of ME dance and fused with contemporary dance.


I was very happy to have studied this, and my instructor Nellie, is a very good teacher. I also took a veil workshop from the Cypriot teacher, Litta Petrou + an Englishwoman from the Hilal troupe (don't remember her name now, very cheerful and nice) who taught us baladi style. Actually veilwork is not Egyptian at all, so this is fusion, but beautiful nevertheless.

Over the years I have enjoyed some good performances by her.
Her early work is her at her best. It is like she is becoming more and more fanatical about stripping the dance away. Do you remeber that lovely performance she did in that Gold Lame two piece. That was fabulous.



I like many of the things they teach, but I wouldn't want to be obliged to follow their "rules" or to exclude some movements,

I practically got thrown out of my regualr class because I went to someone else's summer school. You are either a follower or you are not. There was no middle ground on this matter in the UK.

I was told that Hilal refused to take students who had studied with other teachers, and of course didn't allow her own students to study other styles with someone else.

Like I said above!

I like the fact that they insist on "no belly showing, no legs showing".

But it has to be personal choice surely?

After all it's not Egyptian traditional,
Says who? maybe in the world according to Suraya!

it was imported from Hollywood movies of the '20s and '30s. Nobody in Egypt danced with a bare belly before that.

It is said that some people danced in the nude in Egypt before that... it is associated with prostitution so legs and other body parts were on the agenda.


On the other hand, they also say "no sequins, no excessive decoration on the costume, just a coin belt will do".

and anyone who knows anything about Egyptian culture (and Yemeni) know that culturally the women are like magpies for anything that glitters! look at the party frocks!!


I bought her videos, and frankly, dancing covered up like a nun in a grey formless thing is not my cup of tea. On the other hand, there is a part where she dances, in a lame galabbeya, and she is really stunning.

Yes.

Can you imagine that my teacher never shared with us the music coming from her teacher which she used in class and for class performances (we had asked for a copy in order to be able to practice at home), because the teacher was afraid that someone would use them improperly - in a nightclub setting or whatever? When I pointed out that most of this music is on sale online at the Hilal website and elsewhere, she was a bit surprised....

That does not surprise me... cant you see what is going on? control control control..

All this is very restrictive and makes me feel stiffled. I want the freedom to experiment with many things if I choose to.

Go forth and shimmy in a sea of sequins and free yourself.. I did.:lol:
 

Kharis

New member
The recent Mosaic magazine contained a positive review so someone obviously liked it!
But I do hope folks gave some feedback to performers so that they are not deluded by people's "politeness". This is a dancer of strength and stature so she deserves to know. I do hope she is not prepared to "dine out on her fame" and thus produce any old flannel.

Just to digress... did you have to pay excess postage on your copy of Mosaic? I did. Bloody £1.84!!!
 

Kashmir

New member
I understand where Hilal was coming from. She comes from a traditional Yemeni family, and she was taught to consider dance as immoral. So, as she loved dance, when she develop her own style and own school and company, she tried to "sanitize" oriental dance so that it is dissociated from cabaret, whores, alluring gestures, the ass-revolving-in-the-face-of-the-audience, provocative costuming etc... to give it again an artistic status.
And nothing to do with her attempt in the States to earn a living as one of these immoral cabaret dancers which was a spectacular flop?
Yes it is very much Egyptian style oriental dance (when they do what they call raqs sharqi). Stripped of the cabaret moves, that is. No floorwork, no belly movements, just hips and chest basically, with beautifully inventive arms.
I have a large collection of raqs sharqi as danced by professional Egyptian dancers from 1930s through to 2007. And I have attended a range of workshops with Egyptian dance teachers (Aida Nour, Denise Enan, Raqia Hassan, Dr Mo Geddawi, Yousry Sharif, Randa Kamal). I don't think the Hilal stuff can be charcterised as "very much Egyptian style oriental dance" at all.

I like the fact that they insist on "no belly showing, no legs showing". After all it's not Egyptian traditional, it was imported from Hollywood movies of the '20s and '30s. Nobody in Egypt danced with a bare belly before that. On the other hand, they also say "no sequins, no excessive decoration on the costume, just a coin belt will do".
Actually the two piece wasn't imported from Hollywood movies. It was developed in Cairo from a number of influences (there's been some threads on this). Badia used it in her nightclub before it hit the Egyptian movies - which includes costumes which are far more liberal than current belly dance costumes. However, you are correct that professional non-nightclub dancers did not adopt the two piece until about the late 1940s (according to van Nieuwkerk's research).

Coin belts on the other hand are a 1970s American invention!
 

lizaj

New member
Just to digress... did you have to pay excess postage on your copy of Mosaic? I did. Bloody £1.84!!!
No way :(someone without enough spit?but I see it is back in a paper envelope...well done Mosaic no more see anti green through plastic and to be opened by inquisitive posties!.
Emma where are you me ,dear?Mag looks good though!
 

da Sage

New member
Can you imagine that my teacher never shared with us the music coming from her teacher which she used in class and for class performances (we had asked for a copy in order to be able to practice at home), because the teacher was afraid that someone would use them improperly - in a nightclub setting or whatever? When I pointed out that most of this music is on sale online at the Hilal website and elsewhere, she was a bit surprised....

Do you mean that she didn't give you a copy, or that she wouldn't say where it came from? Because she should have told you all to buy your own copies, to support the musicians.
 
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