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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by adiemus View Post
    erm....tilting your pelvis forward usually means pushing your symphysis pubis back while the iliac crests come forward (rotating around the head of femur), this is the exact opposite of the usual advice to tilt the pelvis back - bringing the symphysis pubis foward by contracting the lower abdominals and associated musculature, and allowing the iliac crests to come back. You'll certainly have more range of movement with your knees 'soft' or slightly flexed, but not if you tilt your pelvis forward!

    With every new set of movements, your body will probably complain a bit. Some of us have very sensitive nervous systems (eg those of us with fibromyalgia or other chronic pain conditions), and it might take a while for the pain to settle - but be reassured, you're not putting 'extra pressure on your back' even if you retain your lordosis, you'll only feel sore. Pain in the back does not inevitably mean you've done yourself an injury! Your back cannot be harmed by doing the sort of movements carried out in bellydance - except where you twist and flex at the same time, or when you do a really vigorous Turkish drop - and even then the majority of the movement actually comes from hips and knees!
    Sorry, I didn't specify which part of the pelvis was doing the tilting. I meant push the coccyx forward using the lower abdominals and straightening the spine.

  2. #12
    Moderator Daimona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adiemus View Post
    erm....tilting your pelvis forward usually means pushing your symphysis pubis back while the iliac crests come forward (rotating around the head of femur), this is the exact opposite of the usual advice to tilt the pelvis back - bringing the symphysis pubis foward by contracting the lower abdominals and associated musculature, and allowing the iliac crests to come back. You'll certainly have more range of movement with your knees 'soft' or slightly flexed, but not if you tilt your pelvis forward!
    This is a very interesting thread, but I suddenly feel a bit confused..

    Perhaps some of you please can point out some pages with detailed anatomic illustrations that illustrates these various positions?
    Last edited by Daimona; 11-01-2009 at 09:14 PM. Reason: grammar again
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  3. #13
    V.I.P. Kashmir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlisonBellyDance View Post
    I also have a sway back but I noticed that if I didn't tilt my pelvis forward when I danced, my lower back began to hurt from putting unnecessary pressure where my back curved. Also, when your pelvis is tilted forward, you will have a greater range of motion.
    I think you mean lifting your pelvis? Lifting with the abs so the back becomes longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daimona View Post
    This is a very interesting thread, but I suddenly feel a bit confused..

    Perhaps some of you please can point out some pages with detailed anatomic illustrations that illustrates these various positions?
    Okay - neutral pelvis : Glossary - neutral pelvis
    ("posterior" means at the back - so the left hand side is the back - the right hand side the front)

    Posture - lordosis: Glossary - lordosis
    Click the diagram on the right to get a larger few (it also shows typically tight muscles for each type)
    Last edited by Shanazel; 11-05-2009 at 12:34 AM. Reason: merge posts

  4. #14
    Junior Member Zanbaka's Avatar
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    Hi Everyone,

    I'm a big proponent of honoring the natural curve of the spine and using a neutral pelvis for basic dance posture:

    - A neutral spine, maintaining the natural curves of the spine. No part of the spine should be flat and the upper back should not be arched. This shouldn’t be confused with visualizing space between the vertebrate, length in the spine, and standing tall.
    - A neutral pelvis position….this is a tough one to maintain. With our sedentary, modern lifestyle, we sit in chairs, couches, or cars a majority of the time, which can cause the muscles that run down the back of the legs to tighten and abdominals to weaken. This combination often produces a “sway back” or exaggerated curve in the low back accompanied by a pelvic tilt. Because this is so common, many bellydance formats insist on “tucking under” the pelvis or flattening the low back, however, I don’t feel that this method addresses individual alignment. Try to envision the fronts of the hip bones aligned with the front of the pubic bone. The triangular plane that these points make should be vertical and parallel to the mirror if you were standing in the studio. You may need to contract the abdominals and tilt the pelvis forward in relation to your everyday, relaxed posture or lengthen the abdominal and tilt the opposition direction to attain this position. Once in position, try to center the weight of the pelvis evenly over your ankles.

    Just my 0.02 cents
    ~Zanbaka

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daimona View Post
    This is a very interesting thread, but I suddenly feel a bit confused..

    Perhaps some of you please can point out some pages with detailed anatomic illustrations that illustrates these various positions?

    Here is a side-by-side comparison of a "normal" spine and lordosis of the spine. While dancing, you want to attempt to achieve a "normal" spine position so as not to hurt your back while dancing.

    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...lsize/9583.jpg

    There are also many postings online about this topic if you Google "Belly Dance Posture."

  6. #16
    Senior Member eden eyes's Avatar
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    that's a really neat diagram kashmir! thanks for posting that.

  7. #17
    Moderator Daimona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kashmir View Post
    Okay - neutral pelvis : Glossary - neutral pelvis
    ("posterior" means at the back - so the left hand side is the back - the right hand side the front)

    Posture - lordosis: Glossary - lordosis
    Click the diagram on the right to get a larger few (it also shows typically tight muscles for each type)
    Quote Originally Posted by AlisonBellyDance View Post
    Here is a side-by-side comparison of a "normal" spine and lordosis of the spine. While dancing, you want to attempt to achieve a "normal" spine position so as not to hurt your back while dancing.

    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...lsize/9583.jpg

    There are also many postings online about this topic if you Google "Belly Dance Posture."
    Thank you very much, both of you!
    --
    Daim.

  8. #18
    V.I.P. adiemus's Avatar
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    Just remember (broken record here) your back is strong, flexible and incredibly tough. Even if you have some pain (EVEN QUITE A LOT!) it doesn't mean you've 'damaged' anything. Most pain settles down - and it's actually very difficult to harm your back while dancing. So don't get too worried about whether you'll hurt your back or not when dancing - the pelvic position is much more about having enough movement around the hip joint to achieve some of the movements rather than preventing back injury.
    As a researcher and clinician in the area of pain, I am so keen to make sure people don't over-react and medicalise what is normal!!

  9. #19
    Senior Member maria_harlequin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adiemus View Post
    Just remember (broken record here) your back is strong, flexible and incredibly tough. Even if you have some pain (EVEN QUITE A LOT!) it doesn't mean you've 'damaged' anything. Most pain settles down - and it's actually very difficult to harm your back while dancing. So don't get too worried about whether you'll hurt your back or not when dancing - the pelvic position is much more about having enough movement around the hip joint to achieve some of the movements rather than preventing back injury.
    As a researcher and clinician in the area of pain, I am so keen to make sure people don't over-react and medicalise what is normal!!
    Thanks for that info! Are there anything we should avoid doing with our backs when we're dancing though? You mentioned that one shouldn't go into a backbend and twist but I can't really visualize that... If you've answered this before, maybe you can direct me to thread? Thanks!

    As for my two cents on tucking, I don't usually tuck when I dance but I have noticed that tucking HELPS A LOT when doing spins, turns, and ballet work such as arabesques - I find it harder to lose my balance that way. No one mentioned this in to me in my belly dance classes - tucking was done to "protect" the back. But one of my closest friends is a professional latin dancesport competitor and she would talk about how she would pull her abs and her buttocks in together in order to maintain balance for lifts and turns.
    Last edited by maria_harlequin; 11-04-2009 at 11:59 AM.

  10. #20
    V.I.P. adiemus's Avatar
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    Twisting and bending is the only movement combination that is known to increase the risk of disc prolapse. So...if you were doing a backbend, and maybe lost balance and tried to twist to use your hands to catch you, you might risk getting into this position.
    The other time might be if you were in forward flexion and twisting - but this is less of a problem IMHO.
    Otherwise, no, bellydance is very very safe for your back - it doesn't mean you won't feel pain from time to time, back pain is very common but usually benign, and self-limiting. A bit like having a headache of the back. We dont' get worried about having a headache from time to time, and we know that sometimes this is about stress, dehydration, insufficient sleep, getting a flu - well, you know what sets you off! - but somehow we've got this idea that back pain is different. In nonwesternised countries there is just as much back pain as in western countries - but there are fewer people who are disabled (ie not working or highly distressed or getting treatment etc etc), than here in NZ.
    The best treatment for back pain is getting back on your feet again, getting active, taking good pain relief for a couple of days, and taking things a bit quietly for a couple of days!

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