Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 48
  1. #31
    V.I.P.
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,228
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kashmir View Post
    The difference is both of these women grew up in the culture. (Both are actually bint il-beled). They were dancing from an early age. They breath the dance without thought. They knew the music since they could toddle. We go to them to watch and learn how to interpret the music in an Egyptian way.

    I would not suggest either of these women would be suitable for untrained grown western women with no experience of the music, culture or dancing. To teach that to an adult - and teach it safely - requires special training for an outsider - which most of us are.
    What special training?

  2. #32
    V.I.P. lizaj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    4,438
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I would say it's study we require.

  3. #33
    Moderator Shanazel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Rocky Mountains USA
    Posts
    15,414
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Shan -- how many self-proclaimed "book editors" or "manuscript doctors" have you run across? Little Miss Sally wrote obituaries for the newspaper, so she's suddenly qualified to get paid $500 to edit your manuscript?
    I take your point and agree with it, Aziyade- but at the same time I remember that some of those folks with real honest to goodness degrees in literature and creative writing had to graduate at the bottom of the class.

    And Bronnie, I am not knocking academics per se (god knows I am as over-educated as anyone), but I always think of what the attorney I work for says when anyone brings up educational topics: "People have the idea that going to law school means you are smart. It doesn't. You can get through law school and be as dumb as a box of rocks. What it proves is you have the ability to adjust to the system."

  4. #34
    V.I.P. adiemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,792
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kashmir View Post
    The difference is both of these women grew up in the culture. (Both are actually bint il-beled). They were dancing from an early age. They breath the dance without thought. They knew the music since they could toddle. We go to them to watch and learn how to interpret the music in an Egyptian way.

    I would not suggest either of these women would be suitable for untrained grown western women with no experience of the music, culture or dancing. To teach that to an adult - and teach it safely - requires special training for an outsider - which most of us are.
    That's exactly the point I was making - these women were immersed in the dance, and the people who (generally) they learned from were equally immersed.

    I'm less convinced that there are safety issues in bellydance, especially by comparison with latin dancing, ballet or jazz. The majority of 'injuries' are aches and pains from people doing movements that they are simply not used to - these are not the same as 'injuries' although they're painful! I split hairs over this because the way we manage pain arising from doing things we're not used to is simply to do it in small amounts and regularly until the body is trained for it. When we have 'injury' it's much more important to identify the tissue pathology and manage that specifically.

    In my experience, apart from floor work, and tossing veils and canes around, the risk of tissue pathology arising from bellydance is pretty low. The main injuries are likely to be shoulder impingement syndromes, hitting someone with an ill-disciplined cane (bad cane!), or - and this has happened to me! - slipping on an equally ill-disciplined veil that has escaped to the floor.

    Floor work poses greater tissue damage risks simply because we're not very strong generally in the very muscles needed to get up and down off the floor. (quads, hammies, glutes, abs and so on) - and it's more than likely that injury occurs not because of muscle failure but because we have tendons and ligaments around the knee that may be prone to giving up the ghost under strain.

    I know someone is going to argue with me about back pain and back injury, and I know my view is contrary to popular belief (even among my profession!), but given that even despite all the injury prevention education and training that has been carried out in industry and around the world over the past 50 or more years, the incidence of back pain has not reduced one jot. And carefully controlled studies have shown that it's not a matter of people (a) being poorly trained or (b) doing it wrong, it's simply that these 'safety methods' have not stopped back pain.

    I'll bet many people don't know that stretching BEFORE you dance/exercise is also ineffective against either pain or injury (references available on request!), and stretching afterwards only helps reduce 'next day' stiffness and soreness. It doesn't make ANY difference to injury.

    **Whew! Stepping off the soapbox now!**

    So, IMHO (and based on my waaay too much study on musculoskeletal pain and injuries) the risk of tissue damage arising from bellydance is probably over-stated. Again, IMHO it's far more dangerous that baby bellydancers get to learn really bad myths about the dance form than any risk of injury.

  5. #35
    Member Bellydance Oz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    473
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kharis View Post
    I know dancers who danced for over 7 years, and still cannot teach. And other's who did so, like me, in under a year and are competent teachers.
    This is SO true. Some dancers will never be able to teach, whereas others can pass on their knowledge effectively in no time. Of course, you need to know the subject you're teaching, but that's only the beginning.

    I know a couple of Australian teachers who have what I call "Margot Fonteyn syndrome". When I was working at the RAD back in the 70's, they tried to get Fonteyn to retire and take a job teaching. But she was a disaster as a teacher! The problem seemed to be that dancing was so natural to her, she couldn't break it down, or understand what difficulties mere mortals might have.

    A good example of this is one of the aforesaid Australian teachers who was teaching an undulation followed by a vertical hip circle. One of the students asked her to break it down, and it was quite comical to see her break it down slowly - the undulation was incomplete and the hip circle became horizontal. Then she repeated it at full speed, correctly. Then she slowed it down and got it wrong again.

    The sad thing is, I'm sure she's completely unaware she has this problem.

  6. #36
    V.I.P.
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,228
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellydance Oz View Post
    This is SO true. Some dancers will never be able to teach, whereas others can pass on their knowledge effectively in no time. Of course, you need to know the subject you're teaching, but that's only the beginning.

    I know a couple of Australian teachers who have what I call "Margot Fonteyn syndrome". When I was working at the RAD back in the 70's, they tried to get Fonteyn to retire and take a job teaching. But she was a disaster as a teacher! The problem seemed to be that dancing was so natural to her, she couldn't break it down, or understand what difficulties mere mortals might have.

    A good example of this is one of the aforesaid Australian teachers who was teaching an undulation followed by a vertical hip circle. One of the students asked her to break it down, and it was quite comical to see her break it down slowly - the undulation was incomplete and the hip circle became horizontal. Then she repeated it at full speed, correctly. Then she slowed it down and got it wrong again.

    The sad thing is, I'm sure she's completely unaware she has this problem.

    Interestingly, Margot Fonteyn was not the best technical dancer. She really struggled with the more advanced stuff, like fouettes. But, she was an expressive dancer, with soul. That was the main part of her magic. She just a natural.

  7. #37
    V.I.P.
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,228
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shanazel View Post
    "People have the idea that going to law school means you are smart. It doesn't. You can get through law school and be as dumb as a box of rocks. What it proves is you have the ability to adjust to the system."
    This is so true. I have a friend who's a solicitor...she's been through law school and earns 50k a year. She's the worst driver I know, and not the smartest person on the planet, quite frankly. She once pulled over in the fast lane of the motorway, to take out an item she wanted from the boot. Nearly caused a pile up. Honestly! And no! I wouldn't want her defending me in court!

  8. #38
    V.I.P.
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,228
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by adiemus View Post

    I'll bet many people don't know that stretching BEFORE you dance/exercise is also ineffective against either pain or injury (references available on request!), and stretching afterwards only helps reduce 'next day' stiffness and soreness. It doesn't make ANY difference to injury.

    ]

    It can also do more harm that good to stretch heavily before a class....even after a warm up. I once went to a workshop by an Egyptian teacher who spend nearly half an hour stretching the students. And I mean stretching. She was asking us all to do really intense stuff, and you could see folks struggling and gasping. It's been proven that stretching does bugger all to avoid injury.

  9. #39
    V.I.P. Aziyade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Cornfields of Evansville Indiana.
    Posts
    2,743
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I think one of the main "injuries" a bad teacher can inflict is more on the reputation and nature of the dance.

    Good teachers say:
    - Belly dance is not just a movement vocabulary
    - There is more than one way to achieve any movement
    - Respect the cultural tradition the dance comes from
    - Understand the music and be guided by it

    Not-so-good teachers never talk about the music, or tell you that since you're American/British/Spanish/whatever that you can do whatever you want and call it belly dance. They don't discourage students from combining stripping/burlesque and belly dance. They don't know anything about the cultural tradition so they spread myths about slave girls and goddesses. They allow their students to perform in bras and panties, they don't get enough training themselves, they don't admit when they don't know something .... and the dance reputation suffers as a result.

    I may never hurt a student, but if I hurt the image of the Dance itself, isn't that almost just as bad?

  10. #40
    V.I.P. Aziyade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Cornfields of Evansville Indiana.
    Posts
    2,743
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lizaj View Post
    I would say it's study we require.
    Exactly.

    We're ALL self-taught, in a way. Some of us have had the benefit of taking daily private lessons with Dina or Raqia or Nesrin Topkapi or whoever. Some of us have to make do with whatever training opportunities present themselves in our region.

    I don't think we HAVE to fly to Egypt every month to be good instructors.
    I DO believe that regular check-ins with private instructors will keep us in top dance condition and prevent us from developing bad habits or sloppy technique.

    I DO believe that you have to at least be pretty good at demonstrating movement in order to teach it. That's my personal belief, but this is a visual art form, and your students are going to be LOOKING at you and trying to imitate what they SEE, so if your technique sucks, they're going to imitate that. As a teacher you owe it to your students to be the best VISUAL model for them. Especially at the beginning.

    Later stage students require a different role model -- someone to guide them on performing skills, musical understanding and awareness. That's a different skill set, and not all good Visual Role Models are great at teaching performance skills. That's okay if you know your limits and can send your students to another teacher with that skill set.

    Kharis, we've had discussions on Bhuz about this and I know you don't like the idea of putting a "number of years" requirement on teachers, and I sort of agree. I think -- in VERY VERY VERY general terms -- if you have one or two classes a week and you're a casual but serious student, it will probably take you ABOUT 5 years to fully internalize and understand the dance, and be able to effectively demonstrate and teach it to beginners. By 5 years, you've probably developed decent performance skills and have a pretty good general overview of the cultures, the music, the styles, the technique, etc.

    So a really ballpark figure of 5 years of continued and regular classes is sort of my guideline for thinking about starting to teach. Obviously that would be shorter or longer depending on the individual, and how many classes she has, what kind of access to other teachers she has, how much time she spends studying, etc.

    What weirds me out is teachers who aren't passionate about TEACHING in general. There are dozens of books available on teaching methodologies. There are hundreds of instructional videos, and hundreds of performance videos to study. There are video training courses, for teachers and students.

    There are SOOOOOO many resources out there to help you become a better teacher or dancer -- and so many "teachers" don't ever bother to check them out. I'm not saying you need to get a degree in teaching, but would it kill some of these people to read an article? Watch a video? Some of the "teachers" I've met seem to enjoy their own ignorance. WTH?????

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •