Are you a belly dance purist...?

[Ahimsa]

Are you a die hard traditionalist, keeping to your chosen style to the letter, or do you prefer to mix it up and 'fuse it'?!

I'm a fusion girl and like to make my own art through belly dance, but I do appreciate those who keep to a particular style and clearly demonstrates it in performance.

How do we feel about fusion and purists and can we live in one happy belly dance world together...? :think:

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I am not sure I even know of any 'die hard traditionalists' or anyone who would call themselves a 'purist'.

Personally, I am all in favour of educating people in ME dance, and making them aware that too much fusion will turn it all into one big soggy unidentifiable mush (and has begun to BTW).

People will be practicing something which no longer retains any likeness to the dance from the ME and they will still call it 'belly dance'.

It is alright for dancers to try and broaden the term of belly dance to mean anything goes, but Joe public still very much think of that term as being something very Arabian.

I think too many people confuse 'correct labelling' with 'die hard purists'.

 

[Gia al Qamar]

I agree with Caroline. You can be authentic in your dancing without being 'purist' or ridgid. Dancers who begin with a solid, educated foundation can create 'fusion' that is still very much in the Middle Eastern mode...though modern and an interpretation of the 'classic' form.

 

[gisela]

Maybe fusionists would consider me a purist, I don't know. I wouldn't really label myself like that although egyptian style is pretty much the ONLY style that makes my heart beat faster. When I see a great egyptian style performance or take a workshop from a teacher in that style I get butterflies in my stomach, it's like I am in love. It has been like this for many years now
No other style BD creates the same feeling, some even makes me irritated and cringy. I mostly don't enjoy watching or doing fusion, there are occasional exceptions but usually it fails to interest me. I didn't choose this stance nor do I have it because it is "correct". It is just how I have come to feel. However, I don't think I am a traditionalist. Too often in discussions non-fusion equals tradition and fusion equals new and groundbreaking. I love the new contemporary egyptian dancers and I think many, many of the "purists" are also very much following the modern development of dance in egypt.

And I agree with Caroline and Gia too.

 

[Yshka]

What honestly bugs me about fusion is that, apart from many genuine fusionists who actually know what they are doing and do a great job (don't get me wrong, I like fusion if done well), many people these days 'do whatever they like' and call it fusion, while they don't seem to be able to tell one style from the other, and it's clearly not!
IMO You have to know all styles you choose to fuse well enough to be able to fuse and to retain a certain essence of both, to be able to call it fusion.

Call me a purist? I think many do, but I don't think I am as such. I am however, as Caroline said, interested in teaching people MED and teaching them what makes this dance what it is, and what it is NOT. Correct labeling again.

Dear Gisela, wonderful how you express your love for Egyptian style. I think for me the same goes, though I like watching a good Turkish, Lebanese, AmCab or fusion show for that matter, my heart and biggest inspiration lies with Egyptian dance.

(edit: maybe it's strange, but I do like to be called purist sometimes... Let's say I don't mind )

 

[Ruby~<3]

:think:
I agree with Caroline.

I feel if one wants to do belly dance fusions they should first study and really get to know ME Dance styles. Fusion too early can alter the dance a bit too much till it may not be belly dance any more-usually because the dancer doesn't know enough about ME Dance.

I'm all for fusion, I just feel if its belly dance fusion it should at least be heavy in belly dance with extra parts that are the fusing. If its not heavy in belly dance which is the KEY word in "Belly dance" fusion. Then its no longer belly dance, it is likely another form of dance that is fused with some belly dance.

anyway..hope I didn't confuse anyone.

I Love fusion so I'm not being mean to it or saying it shouldn't happen I just feel belly dance fusion should have a lot of traditional belly dance with a pinch of some other forms.

as far as purist/traditionalist go! I have no problems with them either in fact I love that they are keeping the traditional dance forms alive!

I feel as long as we all lable our dance forms properly and educate others on them( the differences and stuff), we could all live in peace with our own well defined dance forms.

Best wishes to all,
Ruby

 

[Prusilusken]

Hmmm...I am probably a bit of a fusionista at heart.
No, scratch the "probably"...

I have always had a tendency to search the outskirts, mix and match a bit (or a LOT) to find "me" in my dance. I very much look at my dancing as some kind of performance art, meditation, spiritual experience, and I have to say I do whatever feels right for me at the time.

And A: >BIG POINT< I always try to label it as precisely as possible.
And B: I "keep it at home" if I do something that may be borderline "mushy". By keeping it at home, I mean that I am not going to take anything, be it fusion or "pure", beyond ordinary haflas.

I've tried it once, and despite me being VERY clear (and repetative!) about the fact that what I was doing was NOT to be presented as Bellydance - guess, what the people who hired me to perform presented it as...?
...and now I am one of THOSE dancers...the ones that annoy me because they're mislabelling their performances. *SIGH!*

Despite my love of "mixing it up" I have the utmost respect for the socalled traditional styles and genres and I feel lucky that the teacher I've stayed with longest - since the beginning - is a thoroughbred purist at heart and is forever and continually educating herself in everything ME dances.
I like to think that she is keeping me on the straight and narrow well enough for me to be able to explore fusions without falling off the floor.

To me, dancing, like all artforms, is a "living" thing.
It WILL evolve despite everything or everyone around it, and while I sometimes meet dancers that I could wish would be more at peace with that fact, most of the überskilled socalled purists I am aware of, are.
And while I am at it - it's a two way street.
Some few fusion dancers seem to look down their nose at the "purists", and I find that just as destructive and saddening as when the opposite happens.

Without playful, adventurous, out-of-the-box rebel dancers that can't help but always testing the limits and fooling around with "forbidden steps", the artform would stagnate, stiffen up, collapse on itself and die.

Without soulful, grounded, nostalgic (it's a GOOD thing) thourough dance artists forever searching for pure gold within the limits of the traditional heritage - the Alchymists of BD! - always working on protecting and refining the heritage we all have in common, the exact same would happen.
Remove the box - and we remove the possibility to step out of it or even take a peek over the egde.

We have both kinds, and we NEED both kinds.
I for one am thankful for every dancer out there, I really am!

My personal love is for the dance itself, not a specific genre, and most of the time I have a tendency to feel a bit "stunted" when I try to paint inside the lines, but not always.
Sometimes, especially during something like baladi, I find myself utterly and completely fulfilled, deep within my self and outside my self breathing the Universe into and out of my being, lost and found all at once.
Oh, dear, it all looks so mentally disturbed in writing :lol: but nevertheless I feel fairly confident that some of you know what I mean(-ish)...?

- And I fall completely in love with "pure" performances and fusions alike, as long as they are well done and true to themselves.

Ooooh...what happened? :shok:

Ahremmm...to answer the original question: If I have to choose sides, which I don't really wanna, you'll find me in the fusion posse. About coexisting - I see no way around it...actually, as far as I'm concerned, it's a yin/yang thing.

 

[Jane]

American Oriental is as far into fusion as I get. I tried ATS for a very short while, but it wasn't for me. I started out learning from an American Oriental teacher and have gravitated to more authentic styles of Egypt and Turkey. Still working on losing my American dance accent. A lifelong project!

 

[Shahrahzad]

Without soulful, grounded, nostalgic (it's a GOOD thing) thourough dance artists forever searching for pure gold within the limits of the traditional heritage - the Alchymists of BD! - always working on protecting and refining the heritage we all have in common, the exact same would happen.
Remove the box - and we remove the possibility to step out of it or even take a peek over the egde.

Nicely said, Prusilusken! :clap:

 

[Ahimsa]

I think that you have described it really well Prusilusken; i'm definitely an artist and too believe that any dance would stagnate without pushing the boundaries. But I too respect and appreciate dancers who actively pursue the true roots of their chosen style and whom try to preserve its history in the way it was designed to be.

I sincerely hope that dancers can respect each others chosen style paths and support each other. I do think there is some snobbery that exists from both sides and is intimidating for new dancers. I think no matter whether we are fusion, purist or whatever label you decide to put on it, belly dance originated from women. Women who supported each other and enjoyed each other's dancing. There is a fab quote from "Grandmother's Secrets - Ancient Rituals/healing Of Belly Dancing by Rosina-Fawzia Al-Rawi" (which I don't have to hand but is basically the following) where women were segregated from the men, the women would worship and pray in their own way; often this would be through dance. A woman would dance for the others, then a young child would jump up and dance in her own way, and then all eyes would turn to the wise older woman who would show the others her interpretation. But all were appreciated and supported.

I think no matter what our styles, we should at least retain this simple concept and we will be keeping the oldest tradition very much alive!

 

[~Diana~]

Nothing about my style is 'pure' at all so I can't ever be a 'purist'

 

[Jane]

There is a fab quote from "Grandmother's Secrets - Ancient Rituals/healing Of Belly Dancing by Rosina-Fawzia Al-Rawi"...

As an academic work, please take this book with a large grain of salt as it's a bit fluffy. On the pro side, it has beautiful concepts and a lot of interesting personal nostalgia. If you are interested in the scholarly history and culture of the dance, there are a lot of very good, and recently published, books out there.

Fluff has it's place, but never try to sell me fluff as fact.

 

[Prusilusken]

I have to agree with Jane one this one.
The book you refer to is very subjective and anecdotal.
I still happen to like it, but I also think that it should be treated simply as a compilation of highly personal memories, thoughts and musings - a nice read - and not as facts to lean on.

About all women being sisters and all that...well, as nice and loving and supportive as we CAN be to eachother when we choose to - we, as a gender, also have a long and sturdy string of evidence, anecdotal and other kinds, of having a special affinity for general meanness and backstabbing. IMNSHO.
I very much doubt that a few hundred or thousands years of evolution has changed that one bit.

That being said, I agree that it suits us better as a gender when we choose to take our walks on the Mild side.

 

[Maria_Aya]

I am not sure I even know of any 'die hard traditionalists' or anyone who would call themselves a 'purist'.

Personally, I am all in favour of educating people in ME dance, and making them aware that too much fusion will turn it all into one big soggy unidentifiable mush (and has begun to BTW).

People will be practicing something which no longer retains any likeness to the dance from the ME and they will still call it 'belly dance'.

It is alright for dancers to try and broaden the term of belly dance to mean anything goes, but Joe public still very much think of that term as being something very Arabian.

I think too many people confuse 'correct labelling' with 'die hard purists'.

:clap:

 

[Kharmine]

I've been to restaurants where "fusion" cusine turns out to be colorful and tasty dishes, but the label is pretty moot because it's hard to tell just what cultures are being blended.

That's what I'm afraid is happening to all styles of belly/Oriental dance when it gets "fused" with things outside the classic parameters.

For that reason, I would say, yes, I'm a purist when it comes to preserving the dance but that doesn't mean I don't often enjoy it when there's a good fusion.

As I've said before, would we still feel flamenco was flamenco if performed in fishnet stockings, feather boas and mini skirts? Or tango was really tango if danced to "Puttin' On the Ritz" or some other non-tango melody?

Not that those versions might not be fun to watch...

 

[teela]

I am more a traditionalist in the sense that if it is labeled as belly dance, I expect to see recognizable middle eastern dance. If it is a fusion with belly dance in it, I expect to recognize the belly dance portion and what it is fused with. If the costuming, music, steps, etc are not recognizable as belly dance, I wonder why they included the term belly dance. That said, I have no issue if something is labeled just as fusion because then I know it is going to be a mish mash of things.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I fail to understand why we have two extremes:

1. Make it up as you go
2. Stick to only what we see Randa, Raqia, Sibel Baris, etc doing.


Sorry if I'm being dense, but isn't the whole nature of Baladi to "make it up as you go" ? I just MOVE to whatever the instrument is saying. I don't think "Now I will make a figure 8 and now I will alter that figure 8 slightly so one side is bigger than the other and then I will do a bicycle hip." ??? I just let my body follow the main idea of the music.

While I don't believe that all dance is "fusion" I can't also believe that there is some kind of static "pure" way of doing this dance. I've seen many many native and non-native Egyptians perform Tahtil Shibbak. What's the "pure" way of interpreting it? I mean, there is definitely a way that the native Egyptian dancers seem to HEAR the music that differs from how I heard it when I was a baby dancer. Is that what we're talking about?

Question:
So I'm dancing to Amint Billah, and on one of the drum accents I chose to clap my hands together instead of acknowledging the accent with my chest or pelvis. That would be an atypical "move" for an Egyptian (probably) but would that make my dance less "pure" Egyptian style?

I guess I don't understand the concept of purity. If you interpret the music like an Egyptian, you're Egyptian style. If you don't, you're another style. Right? Talk to me about what you consider purity in dance.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I am more a traditionalist in the sense that if it is labeled as belly dance, I expect to see recognizable middle eastern dance.

Me too. I will accept, as part of this definition, dance that is heavily influenced by recognizable Middle Eastern dance, especially if it uses ME music. So I'm okay with sword, wings, and some lyrical fusions.

If it is a fusion with belly dance in it, I expect to recognize the belly dance portion and what it is fused with.

Agreed, but with me it's more of a feeling. I don't just want to see "bellydance moves" -- I want to see the music being recognized physically in the "bellydance way." I don't care so much about costume, because I'm quite enthralled with how melodias (pants in general) show off more of the performer's hip and pelvic work.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I fail to understand why we have two extremes:

1. Make it up as you go
2. Stick to only what we see Randa, Raqia, , etc doing.


Sorry if I'm being dense, but isn't the whole nature of Baladi to "make it up as you go" ? I just MOVE to whatever the instrument is saying. I don't think "Now I will make a figure 8 and now I will alter that figure 8 slightly so one side is bigger than the other and then I will do a bicycle hip." ??? I just let my body follow the main idea of the music.

For me personally I take the simple approach..

A baby who has not learned language makes it up as they go along, it can be an interesting mix of gurgles and bubbles and can be highly entertaining, or without meaning to everyone but the baby.

A toddler who has developed some langauge, and still experimenting can offer something wonderful but it can be clumsy and funny.
Language development keeps going. When you know the rules of language.. like the in Beledi, you can improvise and be free.. but within that lanmguage structure. You dont need to feel restricted but free because you know where the parameters are.

You cannot make up your own words and language and then suudenly expect everyone else to understand whats going on.

Sticking to what the 'others do' (although I am curious as to whom Sibel Baris is?) is partly 'safety net' i.e.

A) if I stick to this then I know I am doing it right because these are the 'experts'
B) If I just learn from or study my idol, then I may become like her and be a great dancer.

While I don't believe that all dance is "fusion" I can't also believe that there is some kind of static "pure" way of doing this dance. I've seen many many native and non-native Egyptians perform Tahtil Shibbak. What's the "pure" way of interpreting it? I mean, there is definitely a way that the native Egyptian dancers seem to HEAR the music that differs from how I heard it when I was a baby dancer. Is that what we're talking about?

This word pure and purist gets on my nerves too.
There is always innovation in this dance but it is about knowing and understanding what makes it what it is and working with that.

Question:
So I'm dancing to Amint Billah, and on one of the drum accents I chose to clap my hands together instead of acknowledging the accent with my chest or pelvis. That would be an atypical "move" for an Egyptian (probably) but would that make my dance less "pure" Egyptian style?

That depends on what else you were doing? if you accompanied that with can can kicks then 'no', if you are playing around inside a ME dance vocab then 'no problem'.

I guess I don't understand the concept of purity. If you interpret the music like an Egyptian, you're Egyptian style. If you don't, you're another style. Right? Talk to me about what you consider purity in dance.

If you study 'Egyptian dance' , I shall use myself as an example, I study Egyptians and the way they dance, move and relate to the art. I also study other people and the way in which they do it.

If I study Turkish or Lebanese, I would have to do the same to understand what makes what what..so to speak. There are clear differences.

If I see a 'vintage Oriental' I expect not to see any creative license in terms of movement vocab. The creativity can be in terms of the strcture of the poiece but movement and music needs to 100% reflect what it says.

Now, people talk about Samia and her vintage fusion etc. That is beside the piont completely for me. Vintage Oriental is what it was, it cannot be change and needs to be accepted as for what it was at the time it took place. It is like looking at a snap shot in time and re-creating that as it was then.

The 70's style can be recreated by studying the movement vocab, music and costume for that time. Shaabi is now emerging as a new dance form in response to the Shaabi music.

And we have the modern style. We look at how the dance has changed and what makes it what it is now. People copy Dina and Randa and may do for years and years to come.

If people fuse various ME styles together I believe that has become and artform in itself called American Oriental/Am Cab.

We had a style similar to this in the Uk but further analysis just led me to believe that this generic style of 'belly dance' which emerged was purely down to lack of knowledge from the teachers. It was passed down without any real information.

For me, 'Purity' can only exsist as analysing something for what that was at that time and nothing more.

 

[Kharis]

Sibel Baris,

I saw Sibel Baris dance a few years back in Turkey. She was a beautiful looking woman.