Dancing with Zills...

[Ahimsa]

So how many of you guys dance with zills? Did you, like me, just have some zills placed in my hands and told R L R R L R and then just have to get on with it?!

My personal opinion (and personal experience) is that not enough emphasis is placed on zills as a musical instrument. You just have to fumble along picking it up as you try to master the steps at the same time!

For this reason I chose not to carry on with zills, and to work on improving my dancing on it's own. However... my new classes I am starting tomorrow DO work with zills and I am determined to play them well this time!

Any tips? Please share your experiences with me!

 

[Mosaic]

Zills - the bane of my life. i have struggled with them for several years, and it was just this last year I managed to "get it", I even danced playing zills, I never thought I would get to that point.

For me it was just determination, lots of frustration and never giving in or up!

One teacher told me to go to a park or somewhere that not many people were around, and just walk and play the gallop rhythm of rlr, that didn't work until I used the method taught by my other teacher. My other teacher just drilled us and encouraged and refused to let us give up. I actually found her method of dum-es-tek, rather that RLR etc worked best for me. I just ended up getting my R & Ls all mixed up, I am totally hopeless with L & R. I have one sequence permanently etched in my brain now (dum-es-tek-es-tek dum-tek-es-tek tek es) the last tek es joins the 2 rhythms together, but you can play without that bit as it is quite fast. dum -R, es-L, tek-R. Not sure if that will help you, but it was the main thing that clicked with me.

Some people do better with RL, others with 123, others with the drum beat terminology - that is me
~Mosaic

PS: Forgot to add, that I played "air or finger zills to every piece of music I heard, and chanted the dum-es rhythm as I did. I am sure people thought I was completely mad, as i would be walking around a shopping centre doing it, or in my car, just about anywhere, and it finally all fell into place.

 

[Shanazel]

I hate dancing with zils. I used to do it because it was expected, but I hated the sound in my ears and I hated the way they compromised my hand movements. I don't teach zils. Anyone who wants to learn I ship along to my sister teacher in town who dotes on the darn things. The only way I ever like doing it was when I danced with a single drummer and was musician as much as I was dancer. That was cool.

 

[Pirika Repun]

My teacher and forum member Tarik always say "Finger cymbals are NOT props, but music instrumental. So, if you can't play instrument, you can't dance while you play."

In his class, he doesn't teach us how to dance with finger cymbals, or even not walking around until get comfortable with finger cymbals. He teaches dominated hand(if you are right handed, your dominate hand is R) and non diminated hand. Dominated hand always make rhythm, and other hand for beat.

He has basic 3 patterns, plus different combinations. Like gallop, run, and very basics. His first finger cymbal class, we just sit down and play basic patterns until get comfortable. NO dancing, walking or even play music. Just play finger cymbals.

When getting comfortable, then play with some middle tempo music. But still not dancing or even not walking. Just practice basic patterns and combinations. Usually Tarik tell us which pattern to play next like "run!" or "gallops" or some other combinations.

Then we start walking with play finger cymbals with music. Yes, still not dancing. Believe of not, just walking around play with finger cymbals are very difficult. You have to keep beat, walk and play is difficult.

When you get beat and walk, next step is move your hip ro some body part to beat the rhythm such as simple hip drops, figure eight or some simple and basic moves.

When I had difficulty for some pattern, he said "imagine the pattern or sound as visual. Like run down stairs and turn right to get some OJ. Sounds or pattern associate with some visual moves. " I tried, it worked but still need practice anyway....

When getting comfortable, then finally dance with it! Good luck! I'm no way close to him, but keep practicing..... with air finger cymbals in subway. Good thing live in NYC, air finger cymbals not look strange. :shok:

I'm pretty sure this method from Morocco, and both are really great for dancing with finger cymbals. If you never seen him dance with finger cymbals, here is one of his videos. You can see more his videos on YouTube YouTube - Tarik Sultan's Channel

Oriental


Shabbi


Shisha

 

[Jane]

I'm an odd duck I guess, I love zills and Turkish spoons!

I start people off walking to a simple 4/4 and striking with their dominant hand to the beat. Then progress to dominant hand and off hand, walking in very basic floor patterns, then introduce RLR (or LRL for lefties) with simple walking patterns, and just keep adding and progressing as everyone gets more comfortable. Zill drills with movement makes a great warm up.

It's a lot easier to start students out with zills right away. If zills are introduced later, they feel like they are starting all over again; very discouraging.

Keep your hands and arms relaxed and the zills close to each other. Listen to a lot of music with professionally played zills in it for fresh patterns.

There are some good instructional zill videos out there for various levels. We had a thread a while back... Don't know where. :think:

No substitute for practice!

 

[Lydia]

i loooove to play zills !!!!! never perform without them...nobody ever teach me how to play ...i just play....even my musicians ask me to play when i dont dance like after the show....i teach zills aswell......its a must for me,if i dont have them on stage i fee a big part is missing..

 

[Ahimsa]

I think zills with belly dance are lovely, but only when done properly! I remember my very first student performance where we had all been dancing only a few months and the first dance was with zills... it was just an awful mix of bad playing, out of time, tinging sounds (you know the one I mean, the light zills, not the lovely heavy ones), on mass!! Not to mention the faces of concentration people pull when playing zills and attempting to watch the teacher and dance at the same time!!! I think this experience of poor use of zills in a performance has scarred me for life!

BUT, nonetheless, I think zills played correctly are beautiful. But I appreciate them as a musical instrument and think that as much dedication needs to be spent to them as one would on the dance itself as noted in the threads above, rather than being an afterthought.

It's also interesting what Mosaic said about some may find the RLR difficult to comprehend. I didn't even think about this but it would affect alot of people with dyslexia or orientation issues... interesting point! I think this is a good one to remember when teaching student choreography... R and L may not always work!

 

[adiemus]

I love my zills! No-one else around me does, but I love them to bits! fabulous wee thingies, and so good to punctuate the music and dance with.
I'm really interested in what you say Tarik says about them Pirika! I wonder also whether it's easier to learn to play them if you've been a pianist or typist? I find the rhythms easy to pick up, perhaps because I both type and play the piano...
Anyway, my zills are my favourite - and yes, I do play air zill!!

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I hate dancing with zils. I used to do it because it was expected, but I hated the sound in my ears and I hated the way they compromised my hand movements. I don't teach zils. Anyone who wants to learn I ship along to my sister teacher in town who dotes on the darn things. The only way I ever like doing it was when I danced with a single drummer and was musician as much as I was dancer. That was cool.

Ditto!

I think you either love me or hate them... I dont have any passion for them whatsoever.

 

[Daimona]

I wonder also whether it's easier to learn to play them if you've been a pianist or typist? I find the rhythms easy to pick up, perhaps because I both type and play the piano...

Some people are challenged when it comes to melodies, others are rhythmically challenged.

I assume playing any instrument where both hands needs to be coordinated and maybe play different rhythms at the same hand would be an advantage while learning to play the zills.
On the other hand, knowing to play the piano when learning to type is also an advantage because you are used to striking keys (there was a significant difference in type speed between piano players and others when we learned to type at school). Learning to play and dance with castanets is also easier if you have played the piano and previously danced with zills.
Knowing musical/rhytmical notation is also an advantage in reading and understanding rhytmical patterns.

Anyway, my zills are my favourite - and yes, I do play air zill!!

I've muted my practice zills. They still make a noise, but it's not that annoying tingling sound anymore. Whenever I am going to a course where zills are played, I always bring a couple of ear plugs just in case... I really hate that tingling sound from cheap, light zills.

 

[lizaj]

I can't stand that constant clatter that seems to be played whatever the music. I have seen zills played well and in keeping with the "act"..particuarly in Turkish style. I also like FCBD style Tribal with zills but mostly I can do without the extra musical instrument..I find it a distraction.

 

[Mosaic]

I like some good zill playing, but don't like it overdone in a dance routine. I also think it is important to have the best zills you can afford. I ended up buying Sorayan zills and I also made zill mufflers for practice at home My cats hate them, if they could they would stuff them down my throat I am sure, hence the mufflers.

I took a few lessons with the Doumbek (which really helped a lot) because I was having so much trouble with zills. I could stand still and play OK, not fantastic. but moving and I had 6 left hands, and even my feet didn't know left from right. At that time my teacher was using the RLR terminology ( she still does) but as I mentioned my other teacher uses the dum etc. I have to shut out any mention of RLR etc or I still stuff up. Now once I know the rhythm and the music I don't even have to think about it, it all just dums & teks quite naturally. The 2 zill DVDs I did have were useless for me as they use the RLR terminology, I gave them away.

Somehow knowing the doumbek basics helped everything to gel and using the dum-es-tek was the best thing out for me.

I will never be a brilliant player, but I am OK. I am happy to have got to this point.
~Mosaic

 

[Aniseteph]

Our last course was an introduction to them. Apart from when my fingers turn blue and the slightly out of tune noise mine make , I love them. But you wouldn't want too much of them at one sitting.

It's interesting about the different teaching/learning methods. There were people in our class who were thinking about going Right, Left, Right... and counting how many Rights before a Left and asking for the rhythms to be explained that way. I thought I was the sciency analytical one, but I just can't get my brain round it that way. I copy the rhythm patterns, like when they make you clap out a rhythm at school. (only getting progressively tireder and missing more beats :lol.

 

[walladah]

Of course they are difficult

even if they are just played (let aside dancing with them). Because cymbals belong to the drum family and yes, we play four of them together!!

So, they are difficult, because we have to manage 4 little drums. Therefore, we have to learn how to play not only patterns, but in different volumes according to the music we dance to. The other difficult part is to manage the echo of them (I call it the pedal effect, a term taken from piano, but it works as such), e.g. decide when and how the echo of drumming them is enough, when we need echo and when not (flat sound), etc.

The third part is to work on pauses in music, e.g. when we should not play them. This will create variety in patterns, but also will permit f.ex. a ney taqsim to reveal itself without us covering it with the cymbals (no matter how well we play, it is noise, when some other instrument must be heard).

I remember having needed more of 4 months practice to feel confortable with cymbals without dancing.

Dancing with cymbals was one of the most difficult things I have ever done (do not believe that 4-voice fugues are difficult, that's a lie), but yes, it happened after practicing.

Practice is the only way - seeing them as musical instruments is what will make us not to bother our audience with permanent noise of metallic sound.

It is another thing if a dancer does not like them, or if they do not fit the song. Personally, I hate playing them while dancing with CD music, I feel like mocking the dance. But I love dancing with them with live music.

And in any case I hate those (musicians or dancers) who say: it is OK for dancers not to play well the cymbals, they should promote their art (dance) instead. [This is our art, you silly!].

And a piece advice: find friends who play music, even for their own fun, and bring your cymbals at the gatherings. You will not believe your progress among people compared to practicing alone. And one day you will stand up and dance with cymbals as it is coming of its own, you will not believe it either.

 

[Creaky Old Dancer]

Dancing with Zills

For me zill playing was hardest when it was taught RLR but when it was taught dominate hand or dum es tek. It became easier. I've had discussions with teachers about this. One theory we came up with was when you are left handed...that quick hesitation not to use your dominate hand took the timing off. Then in a dyslexic way (for me) it became all about figuring the right and the left so much so that I never heard or concentrated on the music. When I started thinking of dums and teks... I had to listen to the music first and not figure out the hand and yes air zilling all the time to anything. I can dance and zill now actually much to my surprise I was complimented on it.

 

[Aniseteph]

My teacher was calling out the RLR pattern... but doing LRL because she's left handed! She had explained about dominant hands before though, but I went hopelessly wrong whenever I looked at her hands.

I suppose if you are left-handed and have to think "right actually means left" all the time it will put you off. I'm right handed and have trouble telling left from right in a hurry, so the same applies to me if I start thinking. Don't think, play!

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Got a question --

My teacher isn't a big cymbal fan, and she says it's not really part of the Egyptian dance performance anymore. I know everybody USED to play them, especially in the more folkloric sections of the music, but I have to admit that I don't see the big-name Egyptians playing them NOW.

I simply ADORE cymbals. Maybe it's the failed tap dancer in me, but I LOVE dancing and being part of the orchestra, especially to some old folksy fun music.

I don't follow any of the patterns or technique Mona Said taught, or Nagua Fouad taught, which was basically alternating singles and the "3's" or triple/gallop thing. I like to vary that A LOT, and fancy myself like a drummer, using syncopation, varying rhythms and just "playing" with them. Kind of like how Z-Helene plays.

So does that make me a fusion dancer?

 

[Kharis]

I hate dancing with zils. I used to do it because it was expected, but I hated the sound in my ears and I hated the way they compromised my hand movements. I don't teach zils. Anyone who wants to learn I ship along to my sister teacher in town who dotes on the darn things. The only way I ever like doing it was when I danced with a single drummer and was musician as much as I was dancer. That was cool.

I like zills, and used to use them in restaurants. However, I witnessed a performance by a well known zill dancer and found that no matter how adroitly one played them, if they were not used with circumspect, then they grated on the nerves like a pneumatic drill. I actually found that listening to a dancer play zills all the way through several pieces felt like having teeth pulled. I think zills should be used very sparingly within a dancer's repertoire. Otherwise, no matter the skill involved, it can become overpowering and a bit Japanese Water Torture.

 

[LeylaLanty]

I'm an odd duck I guess, I love zills and Turkish spoons!

I start people off walking to a simple 4/4 and striking with their dominant hand to the beat. Then progress to dominant hand and off hand, walking in very basic floor patterns, then introduce RLR (or LRL for lefties) with simple walking patterns, and just keep adding and progressing as everyone gets more comfortable. Zill drills with movement makes a great warm up.

It's a lot easier to start students out with zills right away. If zills are introduced later, they feel like they are starting all over again; very discouraging.

Keep your hands and arms relaxed and the zills close to each other. Listen to a lot of music with professionally played zills in it for fresh patterns.

There are some good instructional zill videos out there for various levels. We had a thread a while back... Don't know where. :think:

No substitute for practice!

This is how I teach cymbals. Like Jane, I think it's important to start students out right away with cymbals - especially playing and moving at the same time. I teach rhythms and zill patterns without dancing at the beginning of a class then start moving and playing them for the next few minutes as a warmup for the rest of the class.

It's also very important to find or *make* slow speed music for teaching playing and dancing at the same time, then gradually increase the speed as students gain proficiency in zill playing. I made slower speed versions of practice music for playing and dancing using computer software. In my case, on a PC, I use Audacity - inexpensive, effective, easy to use.

Just as important is keeping the dance steps as simple and basic a possible at first so students do not have to think hard about what their bodies are doing while they play their cymbals. As they get better with the zills and dancing, the complexity of steps can be increased.

Yes, it's hard and practice is the key to learning.

 

[dreamthief666]

i really want to play zills, but i can't practice at home as my puppy's terified of them, and i can't even clap in time so not sure how possible this is, going to keep trying workshops