Do Burlesque and belly dance mix?

adiemus

New member
My point about bellydance as well!
At least I hope bellydance doesn't incorporate removing garments - unless you have a 'costume malfunction' I think it's been called in the past?!!
 

Caroline_afifi

New member
I agree that 'academically' both Burlesque and some forms of ME Nightclub belly dance has similar fuctions in their respective societies. They are both delivered in the form of a dance, sometimes with parody and suggestion, sometimes with humour ect and both take the 'unspoken' stigma of sex into the fore.

The thing is, do we need to confuse Burlesque and Raqs Sharqi as one and the same in the eye of the public? I seriously doubt.

I seriously doubt even an Egyptian who frequents a nightclub could see the similarity to be honest.

Nightclub dancing is just that, it very rarely reaches other places because out of context it does not work.
Raqs Sharqi cannot be confused with Nightclub dancing as they operate on totally different levels.

It is a bit like playing around with chemistry when you have very limited knowledge of chemicals... sometimes it is harmless and sometimes it can be dangerous.

Blending and fusing things based on very limited exterior based knowledge can lead to all sorts of complications.
 

adiemus

New member
If another dance form, not Burlesque, was performed as a 'special item' at a bellydance performance, would this be as misleading? Say, if someone had a flamenco act, or maybe a latin dance act, would that be a problem? Just wondering if it's isolated to Burlesque and Bellydance because of their perceived 'tease' element (mind you, has anyone watched a good lambada? if that's not overtly sexual, I don't know what is!)
 

Aniseteph

New member
In that situation I think the difference is clear, no problem IMO.

I think you could probably get away with (properly labelled!) burlesque-lite fusion, or the Victorian circusy retro stuff, but when it comes to getting your kit off and pastie-twirling you have crossed a line for a lot of GP audiences, and I'm glad to say some dancer audiences too.

Either that IS what they came to see at a bellydance show :shok:, in which case well done, you confirmed all their wrong-headed ideas about belly dance. Or they came to see family-friendly belly dance and got a shock.

I think part of the reason people want to stick belly dance and burlesque together is the feel-good women's body acceptance empowerment aspects. I see they might feel similar, but like A'isha used to say what makes this dance all about YOU?

It might be awesome therapy, but audiences don't need to see your therapy on-stage. Save it for the group, IMO.
 

shiradotnet

Well-known member
If another dance form, not Burlesque, was performed as a 'special item' at a bellydance performance, would this be as misleading? Say, if someone had a flamenco act, or maybe a latin dance act, would that be a problem? Just wondering if it's isolated to Burlesque and Bellydance because of their perceived 'tease' element (mind you, has anyone watched a good lambada? if that's not overtly sexual, I don't know what is!)

I think it would be as misleading, and it's *because* the misleading preconceptions the public already has about belly dance. The public does NOT have erroneous misconceptions confusing belly dance with flamenco or the hokey pokey, so you could perform flamenco or the hokey pokey as a "special item" without fostering further confusion. But I do think if burlesque was performed as a "special item", EVEN IF ANNOUNCED AS SUCH, the audience would just lump it all together as being somehow related.
 

jenc

New member
To keep the pasties on, they use doublesided tape btw! But I do NOT know how they manage to swing the tassles in two directions. Mine I'm sure would only point to the floor in despair!

I always thought that was an urban myth!!! I want to see a vid then my curiosity and interest will be all done!
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
I always thought that was an urban myth!!! I want to see a vid then my curiosity and interest will be all done!

You can use spirit gum, which is easier on the skin, or toupee tape to keep pasties attached.

To get the tassels to swing in different directions, you just vary the tension in your arms and upper back. Most dancers have to actually hold one arm up to get the oppositional swing, but the really great dancers learned to achieve the same effect internally.

:)


Burly is fun, but it has its place.

I for one don't want to go to a bellydance show and see anything too different from bellydance. I don't even want t see Flamenco, let alone Tango, Salsa, or some dance not even remotely connected to the Arab/Turkish world.
 
The performer herself may know the difference. . .The audience will not.

It's a simple and sad-but-true fact. Most Americans already think bellydance is sleazy or it's used for "turning on" men. . .

If your website or promotional material shows pictures of you doing burly and belly dancing, do you REALLY think that people are going to realize "Oh there's a big difference between these two dances, and she's a master of both of them" ? No, they're going to see belly dance as just another form of "stripping" -- and as empowering as that may be, it has no more to do with belly dancing than it has to do with tap dance, or learning Irish folk dances.

I've been thinking a lot about this, and Aziyade's post pretty much sums up how I feel.

I think burlesque, pole dancing and strip aerobics are great things for women to learn, because it teaches shy women to be comfortable in their bodies - but we can't pretend they're not irrevocably associated with sleaze.

Belly dance has enough trouble dissociating itself from stripping, so any association with these genres is risky.
 

Corylus

New member
I have some questions..

What is burlesque exactly? what is the relation between it and ME dance?

Is what people teach and learn in their weekly classes Burlesque?

Is burlesque something so easy everyone can do it and any 'belly dance' teacher can teach it?


I have fifty more to ask but this will do for now...:D


What burlesque is:

The word burlesque means literally 'to make a mock of'. It never used to revolve around striptease but now that tends to be a main part of a lot of acts. It started as mainly comedic and satirical. Some acts nowadays choose not to reveal much (as they say, less is more) whereas others go all out. But, many people who perform or have an interest in burlesque will argue it is much more about telling a story through their act, costuming, expression of creativity etc. Done well I think Burly is very entertaining but some of it is just stripping for stripping's sake and lacks creativity. To be honest, it is so diverse and there are so many types that it is hard to explain exactly what it is. Vintage, Rockabilly, gothic: there are lots of different acts under the burlesque umbrella.

Links to ME dance:

The significant documented link I know of is through little Egypt dancing at the 1893 Chicago World’s Fair. That supposedly had quite an influence on burlesque in terms of providing inspiration for new types of act. I think this appearance by little Egypt was quite near the point at which stripping became a regular occurrence in burlesque.


I used to have Burly lessons and I found it quite fun, but I worry that burlesque is now viewed as very pussycat dolls style and has little to do with creativity and comedy and more to do with trying to be 'sexy'. However, it would be wrong of me not to add that there are also plenty of acts who work to uphold traditional burlesque styles and work very hard to make acts that are comedically brilliant and/or elegantly danced who don't focus just on the strip element and wearing clothes from underwear catalogues. I personally think it is miles away from belly dance. I know people do mix them and it does cause controversy and I also know teachers who teach both. I'm not sure how well they mix.
 

lizaj

New member
It's been said before but the "Little Egypt" "link" has to do with the way dance developed in the US not in the ME and Burlesque pre-dates Chicago.
The development of what we call Raqs Sharki dates from the early-mid 20th century in Cairo so ....
 

Corylus

New member
It's been said before but the "Little Egypt" "link" has to do with the way dance developed in the US not in the ME and Burlesque pre-dates Chicago.
The development of what we call Raqs Sharki dates from the early-mid 20th century in Cairo so ....

I am slightly confused by your response, especially the 'so....' I'm not really sure what to make of that. It gives the impression that you are suggesting my post is completely misinformed. But please explain this to me as I feel I may have misunderstood the tone of your post.

The question to which I was directly offering that reference to little Egypt was Caroline Afifi's question 'What is burlesque exactly? what is the relation between it and ME dance?'. The question wasn't to do with dance developing in the ME, it was to do with any links between burlesque and Belly dance. I wasn't trying to suggest that the link had anything to do with development of dance in the ME.

Please also note I didn't say that little Egypt's appearance started burlesque, I am well aware that burlesque existed long before that date. I said it was near the point at which stripping became a regular occurrence.

The original poster's question didn't relate specifically to any time period of either burlesque or belly dance either; it just said do they mix.
 

Corylus

New member
Its whole purpose is to tease the men who are watching, saying "you can look but don't touch".

I actually would argue that it almost definitely didn't begin that way and nor is that its whole purpose nowadays.

Burlesque began as comedic, satirical routines. More like acting I suppose, rather than dancing. It became more risqué over time until gradually it became burlesque as we know it today, often (but not always) involving the removal of garments. However, just taking clothes off does not make a good burlesque performer. Burlesque at its best, as I have seen it, stays true to it's roots and is funny and tells a story. I have seen awful acts who have just dressed up as schoolgirls/librarians etc (there are lots of 'themes' that get done to death) and take their clothes off to a piece of music which are not creative, amusing or skilful at all.

I would certainly dispute that it is for teasing men. Burlesque audiences are predominantly female.
 

lizaj

New member
I am slightly confused by your response, especially the 'so....' I'm not really sure what to make of that. It gives the impression that you are suggesting my post is completely misinformed. But please explain this to me as I feel I may have misunderstood the tone of your post.

The question to which I was directly offering that reference to little Egypt was Caroline Afifi's question 'What is burlesque exactly? what is the relation between it and ME dance?'. The question wasn't to do with dance developing in the ME, it was to do with any links between burlesque and Belly dance. I wasn't trying to suggest that the link had anything to do with development of dance in the ME.

Please also note I didn't say that little Egypt's appearance started burlesque, I am well aware that burlesque existed long before that date. I said it was near the point at which stripping became a regular occurrence.

The original poster's question didn't relate specifically to any time period of either burlesque or belly dance either; it just said do they mix.


...so allows people to draw a conclusion;)
And I grant it may not be the same as mine ;) which are :

...so therefore what has belly dance to do with burlesque?

The question is about belly dance (which is a dance of the ME) and Burlesque which is Western dance/entertainment form.

...so I can't see how they mix.

Of course both can appear on a "variety" platform but to put them on a joint platform or in a show entitled an "Arabic dance " or "Belly Dance" show is misleading to those not as familiar/dedicated to the scene as you and I.
 

lizaj

New member
I actually would argue that it almost definitely didn't begin that way and nor is that its whole purpose nowadays.

Burlesque began as comedic, satirical routines. More like acting I suppose, rather than dancing. It became more risqué over time until gradually it became burlesque as we know it today, often (but not always) involving the removal of garments. However, just taking clothes off does not make a good burlesque performer. Burlesque at its best, as I have seen it, stays true to it's roots and is funny and tells a story. I have seen awful acts who have just dressed up as schoolgirls/librarians etc (there are lots of 'themes' that get done to death) and take their clothes off to a piece of music which are not creative, amusing or skilful at all.

I would certainly dispute that it is for teasing men. Burlesque audiences are predominantly female.

I think the teasing aspect has been there for a long time and it seems to be the aspect of Burley that neo-Burley has taken to its' heart. After all to perform the theatrical/satirical/comedic burley would take a little more skill and effort than playing aroung in a basque and feather boa. Sadly there are a lot of bellydancers who like to play the tease factor so it's hardly unforgivable of the GP to link the two.
As I say the likes of you and I may be better informed. We have a lot of hard wor to show that belly dance deserves an "arts/theatrical" platform as well as a titillating "Suzie Nippletassels" type performance. To link it with poor quality Burlesque will not help.
 

Afrit

New member
I am slightly confused by your response, especially the 'so....' I'm not really sure what to make of that. It gives the impression that you are suggesting my post is completely misinformed. But please explain this to me as I feel I may have misunderstood the tone of your post.

The question to which I was directly offering that reference to little Egypt was Caroline Afifi's question 'What is burlesque exactly? what is the relation between it and ME dance?'. The question wasn't to do with dance developing in the ME, it was to do with any links between burlesque and Belly dance. I wasn't trying to suggest that the link had anything to do with development of dance in the ME.

Please also note I didn't say that little Egypt's appearance started burlesque, I am well aware that burlesque existed long before that date. I said it was near the point at which stripping became a regular occurrence.

The original poster's question didn't relate specifically to any time period of either burlesque or belly dance either; it just said do they mix.

Actually, I thought Donna Carlton's research showed there was no "Little Egypt" at the Chicago World Fair - she was later. Maybe inspired by - who knows. So, I'd say Burlesque dancers added the belly dance shctick to their existing routines, rather than it starting with belly dancers and morphing.
 
What burlesque is:

The word burlesque means literally 'to make a mock of'. It never used to revolve around striptease but now that tends to be a main part of a lot of acts. ...

Surely it doesn't really matter what burlesque should be, it's what it is today that matters. We're concerned here about how audiences would perceive the linking of the two.

Links to ME dance:

The significant documented link I know of is through little Egypt dancing at the 1893 Chicago World’s Fair. ...

That's just the point - Little Egypt is synonymous with the hootchie-coochie, exactly the image American dancers are trying to get rid of!

it would be wrong of me not to add that there are also plenty of acts who work to uphold traditional burlesque styles and work very hard to make acts that are comedically brilliant and/or elegantly danced who don't focus just on the strip element and wearing clothes from underwear catalogues.

They still take their clothes off, though. I saw a TV program once by a burlesque artist. The whole program was about how empowering burlesque was, and how it wasn't all about stripping but about comedy and story, etc etc.

I can tell you my husband watched it for the boobs.

BTW Burlesque audiences in Australia are certainly not overwhelmingly female.
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
The burly here has been striptease. Sometimes done by transvestites. And the audience has been more men than women, I can tell you that.

Burlesque as HIGH ART might exist in theory or in some cities. Not here.
 

Kharis

New member
Surely it doesn't really matter what burlesque should be, it's what it is today that matters.

.

If you apply that logic to bellydance then it's like saying all that made bellydance what is today, is not relevant. :confused: That if it becomes increasingly bastardised, that's what should be focused on and not it's roots?
 

Caroline_afifi

New member
During the early part of the last century, the 'Orient' was a major source of inspiration for the West.. from Burlesque to the Ballets to Little Egypts popping up all over the States discarding their clothes.

This of course was enhanced by the fact that the Chicago world fair's 'Cairo Street' had queues forming around the block to get in, and Thomas Edisons film entitled 'Fatimas dance' was the first film in history to be censored.

These things drew on all things 'Oriental' and that is where the relation starts and finishes.
 
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