Do Burlesque and belly dance mix?

[Bellydance Oz]

I recently added a dancer to my directory who does both belly dancing and burlesque. I've had some complaints from other dancers that she shouldn't be listed, because associating burlesque and belly dance brings the dance into disrepute.

I am really not sure what to think, whether I should delete her listing or not. She's not doing burlesque in the clip she sent me, but there is quite a lot of burlesque on her links if you go to her website. What do others think?

Belly Dance Oz Blog Archive Zalika

 

[Kharis]

I recently added a dancer to my directory who does both belly dancing and burlesque. I've had some complaints from other dancers that she shouldn't be listed, because associating burlesque and belly dance brings the dance into disrepute.

I am really not sure what to think, whether I should delete her listing or not. She's not doing burlesque in the clip she sent me, but there is quite a lot of burlesque on her links if you go to her website. What do others think?

Belly Dance Oz Blog Archive Zalika

It depends if you want to be open as a listing to all dance forms. Burlesque has it's place, and lets face it, some of the modern costuming of bellydance is influenced by burlesque. Burlesque is/was not just about stripping,, at least in the traditional sense. It was also about humour and caricature, along with theatrics and glamour.

 

[~Diana~]

It all depends on what your troupe desides as a whole. This is a debate everywhere, even where I am. I have heard both sides of the argument and understand where they are coming from.

You have to sit down and think what you want your listing to present to the public. Especially those who don't understand burlesque.

 

[lizaj]

I like both..done well.
I don't mind burlesque and belly dance on the same platform as long as we are clear that they examples of very seperate entertainments. But how often is that done?
I certainly wouldn't like to see neo-burlesque/stripperesque acts under the same umbrella as belly dance. They have nothing to do with each other.
I prefer NOT to see burley or burley fusion at something called a hafla which does infer ME connections. For a long time we "got away" with Tribal Fusion and ATS sharing the platform as Orientale..now along has come solo Fusions and Burlesque with little or no connection to BD and we have, I believe to re assess how and when we platform the dance with very careful billing.
For many years dancers have been trying to say belly dance need NOT be the "I'm so sexee" dance but is a classy, cultural artform. It is a sensual dance, of course whatever we do but not nearly so upfront in yer face sexy as is the neo-burlesque around at the moment.

I would love to see examples of the old style theatrical satirical burley that was around at the turn of 19th/20th century.

I think it is wrong to label your classes as belly dance classes and then introduce burlesque within them. By all means teach burlesque..I attended a workshop with Michelle Pender on burlesque and she it made it plain it had nothing to do with belly dance (oh and I had a great time!)..but in burlesque lessons!
What a troupe does is up to them..just be honest!
This is only right if we are to do justice to both forms of entertainment.

 

[lizaj]

PS Belly dancers don't take their clothes off in performance nor dance in ther underwear. Burley is danced in underwear and some artistes do take their clothes off. Basic difference.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I have some questions..

What is burlesque exactly? what is the relation between it and ME dance?

Is what people teach and learn in their weekly classes Burlesque?

Is burlesque something so easy everyone can do it and any 'belly dance' teacher can teach it?


I have fifty more to ask but this will do for now...

 

[shiradotnet]

I recently added a dancer to my directory who does both belly dancing and burlesque. I've had some complaints from other dancers that she shouldn't be listed, because associating burlesque and belly dance brings the dance into disrepute.

I am really not sure what to think, whether I should delete her listing or not. She's not doing burlesque in the clip she sent me, but there is quite a lot of burlesque on her links if you go to her website. What do others think?

Belly Dance Oz Blog Archive Zalika

I have chosen to define my directory on my web site as "belly dance only". Therefore, I will not list yoga, flamenco, Kathak, liturgical dance, Polynesian, or anything else that a person does that's not belly dance. (I do consider tribal to be a form of "belly dance" for purposes of my directory listings.)

If I visit the person's web site, I look at what seems to be the "primary" theme. In other words, is belly dancing something the person takes seriously and seems to have invested the effort into genuinely learning how to do it? Or does it seem to be an afterthought for this person?

I've been known to quietly decide to not list someone based on what I found when I visited her web site. For example, I once visited a web site and found that it was a "toy" web site owned by a couple of teen-age sisters, mostly centered around the fun they were having in school. The stuff it said about their belly dancing was that they thought it was fun to dance like Shakira. There was no evidence to suggest that they actually knew anything about belly dancing. So I just quietly deleted their request and didn't list them.

If someone had both burlesque and belly dance on their web site, I might list them or might not. It would depend on what I saw when I got there.

I do strongly feel that it's a Bad Thing to mix burlesque and belly dance in our marketing messages. I don't mind if the same person happens to enjoy doing both, but I do oppose marketing them together on the same web site, putting burlesque acts into what are marketed as belly dance shows (and vice versa), etc. But I'm fine with both burlesque and belly dance in the same show if that show is billed as a "variety dance show" and also features tap dancing, ballet, Bollywood, the hokey pokey, and a Serbian kolo.

 

[adiemus]

I'm comfortable with a 'guest appearance' of a burlesque dance in a bellydance show - it just means a very careful introduction, and could provide an opportunity to (once again!) educate audiences about both bellydance AND burlesque being quite unlike stripping! A bit like you might have a single guest spot for someone who danced lyric or maybe tango. Not so sure about the Serbian kolo though... that might need a show all of its own!

 

[Aniseteph]

I have some questions..

What is burlesque exactly? what is the relation between it and ME dance?

Nowadays I guess it's all that women having fun empowering themselves vibe. I hate all that all shimmy sisters under the skin thing.

Is what people teach and learn do in their weekly classes Burlesque?

Not mine. If I wanted to learn burlesque I'd go to a burlesque class.

Is burlesque something so easy everyone can do it and any 'belly dance' teacher can teach it?

I think it is no more "anyone can do it" than belly dance. Anyone can have fun with it I guess, but performing? Eeek, bad burlesque makes bad belly dance look good.

IMO assuming you can teach burlesque in your "belly dance" class is as disrespectful as it would be the other way round. Anyone thinking the shared shimmies and hip moves and "female empowerment" is a magic link between them is kind of missing the point of both IMO.

(Excuse snarky tone - I'm annoyed as it's just started snowing, threatening transport chaos for tomorrow. Never mind work, what if I can't get to class? )

 

[adiemus]

Points well made Aniseteph!

 

[lizaj]

I'm comfortable with a 'guest appearance' of a burlesque dance in a bellydance show - it just means a very careful introduction, and could provide an opportunity to (once again!) educate audiences about both bellydance AND burlesque being quite unlike stripping! A bit like you might have a single guest spot for someone who danced lyric or maybe tango. Not so sure about the Serbian kolo though... that might need a show all of its own!

Neo-Burlesque IS about taking your clothes off. Of course many chose not to but plenty do even on Britain's Got talent (?).
I beleive originally it wasn't but doubtless the gals costumng was thought to be racy anyway.

 

[Kharis]

Neo-Burlesque IS about taking your clothes off. Of course many chose not to but plenty do even on Britain's Got talent (?).
I beleive originally it wasn't but doubtless the gals costumng was thought to be racy anyway.

It's a damned shame coz strip tease used to be just that...tease. There's nothing teasing about money stuffed G strings and airborn ping pong balls! Watched Gypsy on TCM the other day. Natalie Wood and her hour glass figure. Now that was a gal who could strip with class. Even I'd go watch a show like that. I'm the non Hollywood version was much less sumptuous, but most of the old style strippers and Burlesque Babes had a bit of glamour going on.

On an aside, and totally off topic... I have an ex soldier friend who saw a woman light a cig with her fandango in a Thailand bar and smoke it. He said her muscle control was that good, she blew smoke rings. I was at once disgusted and awed. He swore up hill and down dale it was true. YUK!

But hey, You Gotta Get A Gimmick!

 

[Aniseteph]

:shok:
Now THAT's a gimmick. Ewww, but wow...

 

[Bellydance Oz]

I have chosen to define my directory on my web site as "belly dance only". Therefore, I will not list yoga, flamenco, Kathak, liturgical dance, Polynesian, or anything else that a person does that's not belly dance.

If I visit the person's web site, I look at what seems to be the "primary" theme. In other words, is belly dancing something the person takes seriously and seems to have invested the effort into genuinely learning how to do it? Or does it seem to be an afterthought for this person?

Thanks so much for your considered reply, Shira. Zalika's website describes her school as "belly dance and burlesque" and goes on to talk mainly about belly dancing. So I hadn't given it much thought. However I "friended" her on Facebook and her posts are overwhelmingly about burlesque, not belly dance at all - and it's the same with the school's Youtube presence. So that was making me feel uncomfortable, and then when a couple of teachers complained, it threw me!

I may just remove the reference to burlesque in her profile, and leave it at that.

 

[shiradotnet]

I have an ex soldier friend who saw a woman light a cig with her fandango in a Thailand bar and smoke it. He said her muscle control was that good, she blew smoke rings. I was at once disgusted and awed. He swore up hill and down dale it was true.

There was a scene exactly like that in one of the old X-rated Emmanuelle movies.

 

[adiemus]

Neo-Burlesque IS about taking your clothes off. Of course many chose not to but plenty do even on Britain's Got talent (?).
I beleive originally it wasn't but doubtless the gals costumng was thought to be racy anyway.

Oh shame, because burlesque can be so much classier and funnier than this!

 

[lizaj]

:shok:
Now THAT's a gimmick. Ewww, but wow...

You mean you never saw Sticky Vicky!?

My dear husband took me on an early date to a local cabaret club and there was a male and female strip act on much to my embarassment but they were so funny and skilful (Dickie and Dottie..would you believe?) that I soon forgave him. That was strip--tease...

What the girls I see doing neo-burlesque at halfas and elsewhere do not have is the skill and in particular the ironic and comedic skill to carry off burlesque. They think about it in the same way as they do their belly dance..er it's easy in't it? And I am having fun, therapy so sod the audience

And who on earth came up with the idea of fusing it with belly dance? A dancer who is a skilful dancer and artiste generally may be able to carry it off well I have seen one successful example, trouble is it will have spawned dross....

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Tease implies sexual foreplay.

I think many belly dancers also serve this purpose in the ME, but because of the skill involved, there has been much effort over the last century to make it more than that. The journey has been complex but many can now appreciate it as an art form, not just a sexy warm up.

If we take the 'sexual tease' out of Burlesque, dont we change that to something else too.. is it still Burlesque...??
or is burlesque simply defined as anything which invloves a woman prancing around in her undies? Oh yes, how empowering.:think:

Why do some people involved in 'Belly dance' reduce just about everything down to a costume, music and some simple steps??

 

[AliX]

I do think that it CAN be empowering.

Before I went on a burly workshop, I had become too ashamed of my body to get changed in communal changing rooms and to take my son swimming. The way that the burlesque workshop helped me be more confident is difficult to describe: Yes, bluntly, it is taking your clothes off and there doesn't seem to be much empowering about that.

But for me, and a few other women on the workshop, it was about being able to take your clothes off in front of WOMEN and not feel intimidated, not men.

Ali x

 

[Kharis]

I do think that it CAN be empowering.

Before I went on a burly workshop, I had become too ashamed of my body to get changed in communal changing rooms and to take my son swimming. The way that the burlesque workshop helped me be more confident is difficult to describe: Yes, bluntly, it is taking your clothes off and there doesn't seem to be much empowering about that.

But for me, and a few other women on the workshop, it was about being able to take your clothes off in front of WOMEN and not feel intimidated, not men.

Ali x

Good for you. Anything that gives you confidence in this way is empowering...it matters not how this is acheived, what matters is that it does it. I found bellydance empowering when I first started learning, because I too had suffered from bad body image. A lot of what is perceived is in the eye of the beholder. Some see sexual imagery, some see flirtatious tease..and the actual definition of tease is to provoke. What that teasing provokes is, again, in the eye of the beholder. Some people choose to see nothing but sexual imagery and suggestion in bellydance, not matter how tastefully it's done ...and that their problem!

For you, you obviously saw more than just sexual provocation in Burlesque... for you it did so much more.