All about guedra!

PracticalDancer

New member
Thank you, Hind, for providing those examples. I haven't found many guedra performances, so it was nice to see a post with several samples in it. I did notice that with the exception of one, they were all done before an audience, in a staged (lighting, sound) setting. I am curious what type of audience would have watched this. That is, was this a DANCE performance, or a RELIGIOUS one, etc.?

Well, I think doing Guedra as performance should come after doing Guedra for real; it's like the Zaar, in that it's not really the best show material.
In the old days before internet etc., doing these numbers in a show for educational purposes was an excellent idea, but to include them in an entertainment show nowadays strikes me as weird, but to each their own I guess.
[snip]
it's way fun to DO, so I recommend getting a group together to DO it - it's an experiential thing, rather than a "folkloric dance" though it could be included in a theatrical show - but not your typical bellydance show.

I am going to agree with Anthea here. I personally study folkloric dance as much as possible, but I have to think that much of this particular dance would be "lost" on the audiences I entertain. That is, this is a dance that wants to evoke a group cathartic reaction, one that many (ahem, American) audiences would probably not be comfortable with. To force the catharsis on such an audience would fail, and to simply watch it for "educational" reasons would make it fall flat. Hmm . . . :think: lots to think about.

But, again, thank you for posting, Hind, I really appreciate it!
 

shiradotnet

Well-known member
TI personally study folkloric dance as much as possible, but I have to think that much of this particular dance would be "lost" on the audiences I entertain. That is, this is a dance that wants to evoke a group cathartic reaction, one that many (ahem, American) audiences would probably not be comfortable with. To force the catharsis on such an audience would fail, and to simply watch it for "educational" reasons would make it fall flat. Hmm . . . lots to think about.

Just to clarify, no, it's not designed to evoke a cathartic reaction. It's designed to serve as a blessing. There's a big difference.

I do think Guedra can be used in a performance, but it's important to think carefully about whether a given situation is appropriate. I certainly wouldn't see it as appropriate to a "normal belly dancing" environment of restaurant or birthday party.

But I've seen it performed in a formal theater show, and it was very well-received. The dancers I've spoken with who performed it in such a setting did NOT go into trance themselves as part of the performance, and therefore the audience was not receiving "trance energy".
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Does anyone really know what it is?

If you want to really know what Guedra is your going to have to invest the time and money to go to those countries where it is done, spend time with the people observe and ask lots of questions. There are no experts on Guedra in our dance community, sorry folks. I think people are a bit to liberal to label people experts in things that they really are not knowledgable on. I may have seen Guedra 100 times, does that mean I really understand what I'm seeing? How could I? Have I really lived in their community amongs them on a day to day basis for any period of time? Do I speak their language? Am I aware of the larger cultural connections they share? If anyone in our community can answer yes to these questions then they can claim to have real knowledge, otherwise, they were/are simply casual observers reporting what they saw and the bits and pieces they may have been told.

As a casual observer, It seems to me that what we call Guedra is simply a variation of a much larger cultural expression found throughout the Sahara and the Niger River regions. Not every dance done by a tuareg, (not their original name), is Gudra. The dress, music, rhythms, movements of the hands are all repeated through out the region, variations on a theme. How they all tie together I don't know. For instance, we are all use to seeing women do it, but did any of us know about this?

If we actually spent time in the culture we most certainly would. I'm seeing this, but I have no idea what it all means and neither does anyone else. I can appreciate its beauty, but I'm not going to really be able to speak to it with any kind of authority.

If we look carefully at all the clips shown we can observe that the music is not all exactly the same, the costumes are not all exactly the same and there are subtle differences in the movements as well. I also saw clips where there was no dancer. Could it be that Guedra is a general term, perhaps for a particular style of music, a genre perhaps? There are similar dances all throughout the sahara all having different names like this Takamba from Mali where hand gestures and fingure motions play a theme. Sometimes they are done sitting, sometimes standing. Real research is needed to know how they are related and what they mean. For example, are the gestures totally improvised? Are there gestures that are exclusive to one ethnic group and not another? These questions can not be obtained by being a casual observer, no matter how many times you casually observe. The fact that there are words being spoken alone tells you theres more happening than we are able to perceive. I think it can be presented in performance as part of a cultural concert etc. So there are clearly instances when it is okay to do so.




It would be great if you had the time to get a fullbright scholarship to research and write a paper on this. Its would be a treasure!
 

shiradotnet

Well-known member
If you want to really know what Guedra is your going to have to invest the time and money to go to those countries where it is done, spend time with the people observe and ask lots of questions. There are no experts on Guedra in our dance community, sorry folks. I think people are a bit to liberal to label people experts in things that they really are not knowledgable on. I may have seen Guedra 100 times, does that mean I really understand what I'm seeing? How could I? Have I really lived in their community amongs them on a day to day basis for any period of time? Do I speak their language? Am I aware of the larger cultural connections they share? If anyone in our community can answer yes to these questions then they can claim to have real knowledge, otherwise, they were/are simply casual observers reporting what they saw and the bits and pieces they may have been told.

Tarik, I'm rather surprised by your statement "There are no experts on Guedra in our dance community," considering that the dancer Morocco has indeed invested the time and money in going to Morocco, spending time with the Blue People, observing, and asking lots of questions. She was trained in Guedra by the personal Guedra to King Hassan himself.
 

Morocco

New member
If you want to really know what Guedra is your going to have to invest the time and money to go to those countries where it is done, spend time with the people observe and ask lots of questions. There are no experts on Guedra in our dance community, sorry folks. I think people are a bit to liberal to label people experts in things that they really are not knowledgable on. I may have seen Guedra 100 times, does that mean I really understand what I'm seeing? How could I? Have I really lived in their community amongs them on a day to day basis for any period of time? Do I speak their language? Am I aware of the larger cultural connections they share? If anyone in our community can answer yes to these questions then they can claim to have real knowledge, otherwise, they were/are simply casual observers reporting what they saw and the bits and pieces they may have been told.

Of all people, YOU, knowing ME, wrote this? SHAME ON YOU. (& it's you're - NOT your...) :naghty:

FYI, this is ALL I will write about this. I will NOT engage in any back & forth with you over it BUT as you already know:

In 1963 I *lived* with B'shara, King Hassan II's personal Guedra, in her home in Goulmime - first for 3 weeks, then 3-4 weeks at a time on several subsequent *yearly* occasions, SPECIFICALLY to earn as much as I could about Guedra from the QUEEN of the Guedras *&* I speak fluent French & Spanish.

She spoke better French than Darija. (No, I don't speak Tamahaq).

While I never claimed to know everything about anything, there is nobody in the West who knows more about Guedra than I do. I was certainly NOT a "casual observer" & you know darned well what Guedra means to me.

There is a great deal of info on Guedra (not to be confused with Hadra, Stambouli, Zar, etc.) in my soon-to-be-out (2-3 weeks) book.

If you want to read it, you can buy a copy.

Morocco
the Artist/ researcher
who knows a heck of a lot about the dances of the country she was named after ...
 

Morocco

New member
As a casual observer, It seems to me that what we call Guedra is simply a variation of a much larger cultural expression found throughout the Sahara and the Niger River regions. Not every dance done by a tuareg, (not their original name), is Gudra. The dress, music, rhythms, movements of the hands are all repeated through out the region, variations on a theme. How they all tie together I don't know. For instance, we are all use to seeing women do it, but did any of us know about this?

If we actually spent time in the culture we most certainly would. I'm seeing this, but I have no idea what it all means and neither does anyone else. I can appreciate its beauty, but I'm not going to really be able to speak to it with any kind of authority.

If we look carefully at all the clips shown we can observe that the music is not all exactly the same, the costumes are not all exactly the same and there are subtle differences in the movements as well. I also saw clips where there was no dancer. Could it be that Guedra is a general term, perhaps for a particular style of music, a genre perhaps? There are similar dances all throughout the sahara all having different names like this Takamba from Mali where hand gestures and fingure motions play a theme. Sometimes they are done sitting, sometimes standing. Real research is needed to know how they are related and what they mean. For example, are the gestures totally improvised? Are there gestures that are exclusive to one ethnic group and not another? These questions can not be obtained by being a casual observer, no matter how many times you casually observe. The fact that there are words being spoken alone tells you theres more happening than we are able to perceive. I think it can be presented in performance as part of a cultural concert etc. So there are clearly instances when it is okay to do so.

Addendum to my post, which was sent a tad too soon:
GOOD, valid questions, most of which I actually do answer in my Guedra lectures (!) *&* the Guedra CD I put out, that you never bothered to listen to, has several different rhythms, chants, etc., but the UNDERLYING beat is the heartbeat.

I also explain the role of men in Guedra. Again do NOT confuse Guedra with other "trance" rituals that might have some similar movements, but a different purpose, just like real Zar is NOT NOT NOT about dislocating your neck, twirling your hair around.

Morocco
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Tarik, I'm rather surprised by your statement "There are no experts on Guedra in our dance community," considering that the dancer Morocco has indeed invested the time and money in going to Morocco, spending time with the Blue People, observing, and asking lots of questions. She was trained in Guedra by the personal Guedra to King Hassan himself.

I stand by what I say. There are no "experts". All we have are people who have made observations and are familiar. I've been around Arabic speaking people most of my life. I can recognize the difference between Egyptian Arabic as versus Levantine Arabic as versus North African Arabic. Does that qualify me as an expert?

Its obvious that there is more to this dance than just the movements, the songs are a major aspect of the thing, so how can someone have "lived" with these people extensively to learn something and not have learned anything of their language, not even have learned a single song?

What I said is the truth. If that bends some people out of joint.... oh well... Nothing I said in anyway diminishes anyone here. They have a certain knowledge base in a certain context. Does it offer insight, yes, is there value in what they have to share, yes. But does this make them experts, no. Teach me how to sing one song. All these "experts" are holding seminars on how to do Gudra. Have you ever learned how to sing a single song from any of them?

If we humble ourselves to admit that we are not, nor can we ever be "experts" on other people's cultures, even if we had a visit with them, then we can be open to learning for real. Anything other than that is just plain arrogance.

Any mispellings on the part of this author in this or previous posts are irrelivant as they did not detract from the undrstanding of what was written.

Toodles.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Dear InaraDAncer

I hope you do not get the impression from my posts that I'm being critical of what you are trying to do. I certainly am not. In fact I admire the fact that you are making efforts to dig deeper. My advise to you, keep looking sweetie, keep asking, keep exploring. Try to go there for an extended period, you never know, it just could happen. But if and when you do go, don't brush the surface. Strive to learn their language, their songs, their traditions as much as you can. That most likely will take several visits.

If you want to do a performance piece, then by all means, go for it. Just be honest about wat it is that you are doing and admit that it is a reflection of something that is much deeper and that you are in the process of investigating further. I've just opened a window for you to suggest further investigation on your part. Keep the door and ypur mind open. I hope it leads to opportunities and experiences for you beyond your wildest dreams, and if and when you do please share with us. I would be honored to learn anything that you uncover in the field, especially if you could teach me a song!

All blessings to you
Tarik
 

shiradotnet

Well-known member
Teach me how to sing one song. All these "experts" are holding seminars on how to do Gudra. Have you ever learned how to sing a single song from any of them?

What does learning how to sing a song have to do with anything?

I have taken many workshops in Tunisian dance taught by Leila Haddad, whose mother was Tunisian. Are you saying that Leila is not a credible workshop instructor, since she didn't teach us how to sing even one song in all those workshops?

I guess Mahmoud Reda must not be an expert on the made-for-theater Egyptian folk troupe style of dance even though he invented the genre. In the seven workshops I've taken with him, he has never taught the class to sing anything, not even one song. So I guess he doesn't really know the material, otherwise he'd teach us to sing.

Do you teach people to sing the songs that you use for choreographies in the workshops you teach? Which song will you be teaching people to sing when you teach at Northern Lights later this month?
 
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Morocco

New member
What does learning how to sing a song have to do with anything?

I have taken many workshops in Tunisian dance taught by Leila Haddad, whose mother was Tunisian. Are you saying that Leila is not a credible workshop instructor, since she didn't teach us how to sing even one song in all those workshops?

Do you teach people to sing the songs that you use for choreographies in the workshops you teach?

Brava, Shira! (Leila is ALSO Tunisian - from Djerba)

For Tarik: I hope you mean give the song translations, so they get the meaning of the music they're dancing to.

FYI: I *do* know the Guedra CHANTS (not songs) *&* give translations when appropriate & there's enough time. There are some (with translations) in my book ...

Morocco
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
What does learning how to sing a song have to do with anything?

What does learning a song have to do with anything? Okay. If you know anyone who teaches BAratnatyam ask them if its necessary to know the songs. If you know anyone who teaches and studies HUla ask them why its important to know the mele. There is more to Guedra than just crawling on the ground and flicking your fingers. Agin, we're not talking about whether or not someone has seen something, can recognize it, can immitate it. The issue here is what constitutes an "expert". And what I'm saying is that is a very heavy mantle to wear and one that you cannot be worthy of wearing unless you do the work.

I have taken many workshops in Tunisian dance taught by Leila Haddad, whose mother was Tunisian.

And there in lies the rub. Leila HAddad can claim to be an expert because its her culture. She grew up in it, she knows the way of life, she **speaks the language**. Can she teach you enough to do a choreography and have fun with it? Of course she can and she does so very well. Can anyone who takes a workshop with her walk out and claim to be an "expert"? NO.

Are you saying that Leila is not a credible workshop instructor, since she didn't teach us how to sing even one song in all those workshops?

Her obnjective was to share something with you and give you something that you could have fun with, not to make you experts. Did she teach you to sing any songs, no. From what I've seen of Tunisian dances singing is not necessary. BUT does Leila Hadad know the songs herself? You bet she does. Guedra is not just about the dance. Its is also about the songs. If you observe them carefully, they take turns dancing. What do they do when they are not dancing? They're singing.

Its not possible to teach people to sing in a language they are not familiar with in a 2 or 3 hr workshop if what they are going to be doing is a choreography. When you learn Flamenco, you also learn the songs, when you study Hula, you learn the songs. A language is the soul of a culture, you can't dismiss it flippantly and then call yourself an authority. Sorry


I guess Mahmoud Reda must not be an expert on the made-for-theater Egyptian folk troupe style of dance even though he invented the genre. In the seven workshops I've taken with him, he has never taught the class to sing anything, not even one song. So I guess he doesn't really know the material, otherwise he'd teach us to sing.

Once again, its his culture, HE speaks the language, HE grew up in it. As far as his theater dances HE CREATED them himself. At no point has he ever claimed that what he presents on stage is REAL folk dance. He has always been very honest about what he did. As far as being an expert on things. I don't think he has ever put that title on himself nor does he need to. HE has always been honest enough to say, I went here, this is what I observed and based on that this is what I created. It was never his intention to recreate any of the folk dances in truth as they are actually done in real life. He was creating theater dances based on themes inspired by those communities. I don't fault him for that. I do have issues with those who've come along after him claiming those dances are real folklore though.

I doubt that he speaks Siwi or any of the Nubian langages. And I doubt that he would think that he could cal himself an expert on their cultures simply because he visited those places and observed them a few times. To be worthy of calling yourself an expert, you must gain entry into that community and culture. Thst doesn't happen willy nilly


Do you teach people to sing the songs that you use for choreographies in the workshops you teach? Which song will you be teaching people to sing when you teach at Northern Lights later this month?

No I don't nor have I ever. And when I teach workshops in any topic the first thing I tell people is that "I AM NOT AN EXPERT". I tell them that I have traveled to Egypt several times, this is what I have observed, this is what I have experienced and i am STILL IN THE PROCESS OF LEARNING. I tell them point blank that they are not going to walk out of my workshop knowing all there is to know and I give suggestions and encourage them in how they can deepen their knowledge. I do provide translations to the songs and where possible I also give transliterations of the Arabic for those who want to deepen their knowledge and study the language.

I have a lot to learn, a hell of a lot to learn. I have some knowledge,and I'm damned good at what I do when it comes to being able to teach and explain movements and getting people to go beyond their comfort zones AND I can guarantee that they will walk out of that room having had a hell of a lot of fun. That is a verry different thing than claiming to be an expert on Egyptian culture. So if you want to learn how dance, you want to get over some of your limitations, you want to have fun, come see me. You want to be an EXPERT, honey I'm sorry, I can't do that and neither can anyone else. If that's what you want, you're going to have to invest the time and money neccessary to assimilate the culture.



Once again. I am not saying that people's experiences and observations areinvalid and have no merrit. What I am saying though is that one should choose their adjectives more carefully. It is the height of arrogance to believe that you can simply walk into a community that has a culture and traditions that is thousands of years old, sit with someone for a few visits and then walk out an expert.

If I were going to look to anyone to label them an expert, I would choose someone like KAtherin Dunnam. Why? Because she received a fullbright grant to go to HAiti, live with the people for an extended period of time. She didn't just run up to them and say show me your dance. She learned to cook with them, she learned their stories and most importantly, she took the time and effort neccessary to learn their language.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Brava, Shira! (Leila is ALSO Tunisian - from Djerba)

For Tarik: I hope you mean give the song translations, so they get the meaning of the music they're dancing to.

FYI: I *do* know the Guedra CHANTS (not songs) *&* give translations when appropriate & there's enough time. There are some (with translations) in my book ...

Morocco

I have no intention of getting into a thing with you about this. There is nothing that I said that takes away from your experiences and observations in any way. You did what you did, saw what you saw and provided a glimpse into communities that were all but inaccessable to most people at that time. But that does not make you an "Expert" in the truest sense. You have seen enough to be able to reproduce somethig that conveys the look of a Gudra but can you reproduce the real thing, no you can't because it is not your culture, you do not speak the language and you did not grow up in it.

You have seen things in person, you have gleaned things from materials you have read. You do not know any of the songs and it does not diminish you in any way to admit that. If you did, you would have taucht them to us. If you really knew Guedra, real Guedra, we would have been doing it to a recording. We would have been playing the drum and singing the songs ourselves because you would have taught them to us. You di not. What you did do was create something that was very beautiful and artistic and attempted to honestly convey something of what the thing is and that has merit on its own. It was what it was and does not need to seek validation by claiming it to be anything more than what it was.

You were my teacher, you gave me opportunities that no one else in this city would at the time and I have and always will appreciate that, but you are not my god and you are not infalable. I did not mention you by name and I was very specific in explaining my critiria for wearing the mantel of expert. As far as I can tell, no one in our community has earned those stripes. We are all simply students, on going learners. Perhaps you feel the need to be an "Expert", I don't. If I moved to Egypt right now for the next 5yrs and spoke the language I wouldn't be an expert. Deeply knowledgable yes, an expert, no.

If you choose to take offense, I can't help that. I've said what I said. It was said in truth and integrity. Might not make me a lot of friends or money, but it is the truth. I'd just like to point out that in academic circles, no one is above critique. Having said that I take my leave
 

shiradotnet

Well-known member
I tell them point blank that they are not going to walk out of my workshop knowing all there is to know.

I don't think I've ever attended any workshop anywhere, at any time, in which the instructor claimed they knew all there was to know. EVER. Every workshop instructor I've ever had has acknowledged that they don't know everything. Even Mahmoud Reda has been quite up-front with me when I've asked him questions that he didn't know the answer to. Also, every workshop instructor I've ever studied with has acknowledged that they are on a perpetual path of learning more. I've never had anyone proclaim that their students will walk out of their workshop knowing all there is to know.

I think your definition of "expert" is different from mine. You seem to be suggesting that "expert" is "person who knows everything there is to know on a topic". By that definition, there is no expert anywhere in the world on any topic at all. Every human being on earth, no matter how knowledgeable, will have some gaps. Stephen Hawking is widely acknowledged as an expert in physics, though he'd be the first to say he doesn't know everything there is to know about it, so by your definition YOU wouldn't consider him an expert.

According to dictionary.com, the definition of "expert" is: "a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular field; specialist; authority". By that definition, I think our dance form has many experts in many subject areas. We have many specialists, and I am grateful for the opportunity to study with them.

Avoiding contention related to specific personalities on this thread, I would say that Sahra Saeeda is an expert in Egyptian folk dances, even though she readily acknowledges that there is much she doesn't yet know, and even though she doesn't teach people to sing songs in her Journey Through Egypt training. I would say that Habiba is an expert in Tunisian dance, even though I've never heard that she teaches singing in her Tunisian workshops. I would say that Kay Hardy Campbell is an expert in Khaleegy raqs al nasha'at, though I've never been told that she teaches people how to sing any Khaleegy songs in her workshops. I'm actually quite confused as to why you think it's necessary to teach workshop attendees to sing a song as a requirement to demonstrate expertise.

I would say that my cousin is NOT an expert on ANY Moroccan folk dance forms, even though he lived in Morocco for many years - so the mere act of living in a place does not automatically confer expertise. What matters is how you spend your time while staying in a place, whom you associate with while there, and what methodology you use for gathering information.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
I don't think I've ever attended any workshop anywhere, at any time, in which the instructor claimed they knew all there was to know. EVER. Every workshop instructor I've ever had has acknowledged that they don't know everything. Even Mahmoud Reda has been quite up-front with me when I've asked him questions that he didn't know the answer to. Also, every workshop instructor I've ever studied with has acknowledged that they are on a perpetual path of learning more. I've never had anyone proclaim that their students will walk out of their workshop knowing all there is to know.

I think your definition of "expert" is different from mine. You seem to be suggesting that "expert" is "person who knows everything there is to know on a topic". By that definition, there is no expert anywhere in the world on any topic at all. Every human being on earth, no matter how knowledgeable, will have some gaps. Stephen Hawking is widely acknowledged as an expert in physics, though he'd be the first to say he doesn't know everything there is to know about it, so by your definition YOU wouldn't consider him an expert.

According to dictionary.com, the definition of "expert" is: "a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular field; specialist; authority". By that definition, I think our dance form has many experts in many subject areas. We have many specialists, and I am grateful for the opportunity to study with them.

Avoiding contention related to specific personalities on this thread, I would say that Sahra Saeeda is an expert in Egyptian folk dances, even though she readily acknowledges that there is much she doesn't yet know, and even though she doesn't teach people to sing songs in her Journey Through Egypt training. I would say that Habiba is an expert in Tunisian dance, even though I've never heard that she teaches singing in her Tunisian workshops. I would say that Kay Hardy Campbell is an expert in Khaleegy raqs al nasha'at, though I've never been told that she teaches people how to sing any Khaleegy songs in her workshops. I'm actually quite confused as to why you think it's necessary to teach workshop attendees to sing a song as a requirement to demonstrate expertise.

I would say that my cousin is NOT an expert on ANY Moroccan folk dance forms, even though he lived in Morocco for many years - so the mere act of living in a place does not automatically confer expertise. What matters is how you spend your time while staying in a place, whom you associate with while there, and what methodology you use for gathering information.

A word I think we should all strive to illiminate from our vocabulary: EXPERT. History is so chuck full of instances where the "EXPERTS" got it completely wrong. Within your life time the medical and athletic "EXPERTS" told us women were not physic capable of running marathons. In the 19th century the academic "EXPERTS" said women were not intellectually capable higher learning. The psychological "EXPERTS" said Black people were suffering from mental illness when they tried to escape slavery. 9 times out of 10 the course of history has shown that most of those who touted themselves "EXPERTS" were so far off the mark. Its useless semantics.

Honey, I love you but I have no desire to go round the maypole with you or anyone else on this issue. I was very specific in what I consider to be some qualifications a person should have met. I don't need someone to be an "expert" to find value in what they teach. The quality of the work will speak for itself. I don't think any of the people you mentioned are losing sleep over the semantics of whether they are "experts" or not. They do a damnd good job at what they do and they do it with honesty and integrity. What I said is that from where I'm standing I have not seen anyone who has done sufficient research into this particular topic, Guedra. It's superficial at best. Sorry but if I have $10 and you only have $1, that don't make me rich. It means that we're both poor. In all honesty when it comes to Guedra we're all poor. More work needs to be done. There is no shame or slight in admitting this. If people choose to take it that way, that has nothing to do with me. The truth of the situation is the truth of the situation. Petty egos have nothing to do with anything.

What I'm saying is not to pin everything on what I or anoyne else says. Listen to what they have to say and go beyond it and do your own investigation. Don't just stop ast one source on book one opinion. I was Morocco's student. I'd ask her millions of questions and then I'd still go out and read other materials, see things, ask questions. Wonder why you never saw much of me on those trips, because I was off doing exactly that, seeing for myself what I could see. That's not disrespect or slighting, that is what anyone who endevors to be a scholar, researcher should do. $10 can buy you a lot of things, but it ain't enough to buy a mansion. Instead of squabbling on the internet over sematics I think we'd be best served if we get up off our butts and do some real work. Last word is all yours if you want it.
 
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shiradotnet

Well-known member
Well, I think doing Guedra as performance should come after doing Guedra for real; it's like the Zaar, in that it's not really the best show material.
In the old days before internet etc., doing these numbers in a show for educational purposes was an excellent idea, but to include them in an entertainment show nowadays strikes me as weird, but to each their own I guess.

I think a key point to consider is that any time you put ANY kind of ethnic folk behavior in front of an audience, it's going to be necessary to make some modifications to make it consumable by an audience. This is true regardless of whether you're talking about dance, theatrical skits depicting people carrying jugs of water from the well, music, etc. The specific modifications required may vary, depending on what the original folk form was like and what kind of audience it will be presented to.

La Meri talked about this in some depth in her book Total Education in Ethnic Dance. I recommend reading it to anyone who is thinking of adapting folk dance to stage.

You can also see this concept at work in how Reda Troupe packaged traditional Egyptian folk culture for stage. For example, a "real" traditional embroidered Bedouin dress would be colored thread on black fabric, but Reda Troupe costuming went with colored thread on white/ivory fabric to make it show better on stage.

A "real" debke line dance done in the village was traditionally a fairly repetitive step that people of all ages could join in doing, but debke presented on stage is usually very athletic and flashy.

I remember once when I was participating in a simple, repetitive Balkan line dance being done by my folk dance club, one of the newer members commented on how repetitive it was, and one of the longtime members said, "That's so people can talk about their sheep while they do it!" And whenever we performed, we tended to choose dances that had originated among performing folk troupes rather than those that had originated as authentic village dances. To this day, when I use a simple, repetitive debke in my "Belly Dance for Exercise" class, I instruct my students to talk about their sheep with each other while they do it. :lol:

Similarly, a "performance" of Guedra in front of an audience would need to be modified for theatrical purposes. The needs of a performance situation are quite different from the needs of native Blue People doing the ritual in their camp. But Guedra has been used in performance situations even by the indigenous people who use it as a ritual - they have performed it at the Marrakesh Folk Festival.
 

LilithNoor

New member
This thread has me all fired up to learn more about guedra, and i've just found out that Kajira from Black Sheep Belly dance is going to be teaching a workshop on the subject in Southhampton next year. Hoorah!
 

Marya

Member
Just to clarify, no, it's not designed to evoke a cathartic reaction. It's designed to serve as a blessing. There's a big difference.

I do think Guedra can be used in a performance, but it's important to think carefully about whether a given situation is appropriate. I certainly wouldn't see it as appropriate to a "normal belly dancing" environment of restaurant or birthday party.

But I've seen it performed in a formal theater show, and it was very well-received. The dancers I've spoken with who performed it in such a setting did NOT go into trance themselves as part of the performance, and therefore the audience was not receiving "trance energy".

The one and only time I performed Guedra was at a fundraiser for one of the Tsunami (Thailand, not Japan) communities. I don't know if anyone received any trance energy from me, but I was definitely in a different mode of perception when I finished. I should have gone and sat in a quiet dark room for an hour. I was not totally coherent or functioning on all cylinders for several hours afterward. I did have a live drummer and clappers to join in with the recorded music which I think helped alot.

I would like to thank Morocco the only instructor (as far as I know) in the US to teach Guedra, for teaching me at two workshops, one in Boise and one at Saqra's camp. Aisha Ali, the only other person I spoke with who might be qualified to teach it said she could never find enough people interested in learning it.

Marya
 

PracticalDancer

New member
(the following is a complete sidebar, in a weak attempt to diffuse things a little.)

I don't think I've ever attended any workshop anywhere, at any time, in which the instructor claimed they knew all there was to know. EVER.
I have. :rolleyes: I won't name names; but, I also will avoid studying with them again.

. . . Sahra Saeeda is an expert in Egyptian folk dances, even though she readily acknowledges that there is much she doesn't yet know . . . I would say that Kay Hardy Campbell is an expert in Khaleegy raqs al nasha'at . . .
I am glad you endorse them! I had the honor of studying with Sahra just 2 weeks ago, and I will study with Ms. Campbell on Saturday!
 
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