To crit or not to crit!

[jenc]

I was intrigued by the new bellydance genre, so I looked it up. It is based on the Dune novels by Frank Herbert where the Bene Gesserit are some kind of sisterhood who train their bodies to obtain powers and abilitities that seem magical to outsiders.

Thus spoke St. Alia-of-the-Knife: "The Reverend Mother must combine the seductive wiles of a courtesan with the untouchable majesty of a virgin goddess, holding these attributes in tension so long as the powers of her youth endure. For when youth and beauty have gone, she will find that the place-between, once occupied by tension, has become a wellspring of cunning and resourcefulness." ”


Now. that explains the martial arts aspect. It's also evidently pretensious clap trap. I don't think that I think that if you claim to have invented a new form of bellydance - you should not be surprised if you get criticised. It seems to me that it's not just a case of some people pushing the envelope tobreaking point without seeing the problem. some people just refuse to see that there is an envelope at all.

Matters of dress however, are usually better left to face to face and PM

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Hi Jenc,

All of the above would be really usefull in the Tribal or Fusion thread because I assume it relates to the artist in that particular clip?

 

[Kharis]

Teachers and professionals should be critiqued. If we constantly pat ourselves and each other on the back over every little thing, the quality of belly dance will suffer. We should not have to say things are great when it's not true. It's the way we give our critiques that matter. Give an opinion only when asked. Be tactful. Be honest. Be specific. Be kind. People can take it or leave it. It's only one person's opinion. Most of the time you are wasting your breath. When I dance like crap I know it and so does everyone else. I don't need my hand held and people lying to me to make me feel better about it. I need to figure out why it sucked and how to fix it because it is my job. I learn a lot from failed performances. Critique does not mean I have to let everyone know my opinion. I can keep my assessments to myself. Honestly, I doubt anyone but my students care about my opinion because they are paying me to have one.

The only thing to be gained by mean spirited ripping up of other dancers is a nasty reputation, guilt, and bad karma. I have done it and I am not proud of it when I do.

Acknowledgement of one's weaknesses is good and being open to criticism is good also. The main bone of contention here is not that...but the needless and unnecessary discussion of someone's shortcomings that are glaringly obvious to all.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

This all seems to be in the context of discussing someone's dancing, but costumes also get discussed in much the some way. Is there a reason for the distinction between creativity in dance and creativity in costuming? Personally I don't see it. For me all the same arguments apply, yet this doesn't seem to be reflected.

Your very good point seems to have been overlooked.

Is it really OK to just be able to slag off the things that 'personally' dont suit us.. and then lecture everyone else about doing the same and define what people are allowed to critique?

We can be blunt about 'this' but not about 'that'?... one 'deserves it' and the other doesnt..whats going on?... a patronising joke thats what.

 

[jenc]

Hi Jenc,

All of the above would be really usefull in the Tribal or Fusion thread because I assume it relates to the artist in that particular clip?

Oh yeah I'll head over and post it there. The 2 threads seem to be about the same dancer, but I can see the point of this thread having a wider remit.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Hi Jenc,

Well the thread I mentioned is about discussing dance forms/genre etc. and this thread is about peoples right to critique (or not)...or what they should be aloud to critique (or not).

 

[Ariadne]

There's always the old adage to fall back on when commenting on performances: Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?

I really like this whether it has to do with performance or costuming or anything. Back when I was having a rough time with a roommate I would use a similar rating. I would ask myself is it me or them that has the problem? If it's me then I have to deal with it not them. If something annoyed me that they did as long as it wasn't destructive I just needed to get over it.

Sooo... I felt just a little chastised because Shanazel is right and I had forgotten that. :redface:

 

[Jane]

Acknowledgement of one's weaknesses is good and being open to criticism is good also. The main bone of contention here is not that...but the needless and unnecessary discussion of someone's shortcomings that are glaringly obvious to all.

I was trying to look at the bigger picture to help me put my thoughts on this in perspective.

I think this is a much bigger issue than just that one Tribal Fusion dancers performances. She is a person not a thing. Her performance elements can be critiqued without her being personally attacked. Repeatedly. It has been blown way out of proportion. I think this dancer has suffered enough, she shut down a long time ago and will not listen to even helpful comments. This is counter-productive. Constructive comments about her particular performance piece should have all been sent to her privately if people felt so damned compelled to say anything. The internet community ripped her up one side and down the other. They crucified that dancer and held her up as "scapegoat exhibit A", representing all the problems and issues facing the dance today. She hit almost every hot-button issue there is all in one dance. Perhaps she did it to promote meaningful controversy and discussion?

Maybe deciding what is "needless and unnecessary" is the real question. On one side of the coin, public performances should be discussed fairly and judged by their merits. Conversely, it's very hard to separate the dancer from the dance. We dance with our bodies and bare our souls. We put ourselves at great risk of personal rejection when we dance for others. Professionals in arts know this. That's why we don't, and should never, critique students and hobby dancers like we do professional or teachers. A real critique is not a public bitch fest.

As an aside: Because a dance has deep meaning to the performer, does not mean it will be relevant to, or resonate with an audience. Some pieces are better left as developmental works and not performance presentations.

 

[Kharis]

She is a person not a thing.

Exactly. What is upsetting with this particular clip is that she is wanting in so many areas, God love her, and seems oblivious. She's happy as a clam doing her thing. Of all the comparisons to use that must be out there, this is being held aloft for the simple expediency that it is so bad....and that's not fair. I really felt for her as she tried to defend her corner. I know some folks tried to help her but it felt like her 'stubborness' was in fact the kind of retaliative fear one sees in a cornered rat. I dunno. I just thought it a bit below the belt to post her up on this board again for further dissection.:think:

 

[Kashmir]

If someone is presenting herself as a teacher/professional belly dancer and has posted the footage herself (i.e. presumably is happy that it is representative of her work and not an off night) then it is reasonable to comment/discuss.

I agree - both bits are necessary and sufficient. If you are using YouTube as part of your professional publicity then you better be able to take the reaction.

The other side is I wish beginner dancers would not post clips of themselves for the whole world - it puts them in a vulnerable position.

 

[lizaj]

And this is the problem with Youtube..people get more than they bargained for..or do they? I am sure by now we must all realise that watchers will make unjustified comment about performance,body shape whatever and so you have an option if you want to post your performance or message to friends around the world...no comment allowed!
There is a problem with people, maybe like this lass who feel that she is right , that what she is doing is valid and everyone is wrong or just plain mean.
I won't post publicly on Youtube because I know darn well that even where I to dance a dream there would be comment about my shape,my age. And I can do without it.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

And this is the problem with Youtube..people get more than they bargained for..or do they? I am sure by now we must all realise that watchers will make unjustified comment about performance,body shape whatever and so you have an option if you want to post your performance or message to friends around the world...no comment allowed!
There is a problem with people, maybe like this lass who feel that she is right , that what she is doing is valid and everyone is wrong or just plain mean.
I won't post publicly on Youtube because I know darn well that even where I to dance a dream there would be comment about my shape,my age. And I can do without it.

I think anyone who knows how to upload a clip onto youtube, knows what it is about and where their clip may end up.
You do also have the right to cancel all comments etc.

I can only imagine folk want people to see what they are doing and respond in some way. It is utterly patronising to keep talking about people like they are stupid, innocent or nieve.

If you want to control the way people think and feel then dont put your clips on the internet with open comments for all the scutinize, and dont take part in discussion forums. Thats the bottom line really.

I use my own clips to highlight how I dance, how I see this dance.
I use discussion forums to discuss good and bad practice and the abstract concept of the lesser spotted gobtwit. I accept all that goes with it.

People do think about what is being said, people do take on board ideas and thoughts, some people are considering long and hard about what they do (me for one),... and how?... because I opened my mind to learning and didnt just make this dance all about me me me.

Not all people in the real world will sit back and say..'OH really, how interesting lets all be freeeeeee' whilst thinking, 'exuse me, thats not correct and that dance is nothing like what you just said it was'. Silence is not always golden, it can be passive and useless at times.

There are consequesnces for what we do, and trying to control the honest thoughts and minds of everyone on a forum is not going to take away the ramifications of our actions.

I am not advocating cruelty... but a bit more honesty wont do any harm.

 

[Jane]

This all seems to be in the context of discussing someone's dancing, but costumes also get discussed in much the some way. Is there a reason for the distinction between creativity in dance and creativity in costuming? Personally I don't see it. For me all the same arguments apply, yet this doesn't seem to be reflected.

I think of a costume as a thing. A person can easily change a costume. There is not that much emotion invested in it most of the time. Discussing a dance is more personal. The dancer is the dance.

 

[Aniseteph]

For the most part I think the discussions here are about issues raised by a clip, not snarking at the shortcomings of individual dancers.

If a particular clip raises questions because of its content or execution or where it was performed etc etc it can be very interesting and informative to discuss those issues. Like Caroline says, it makes you think about what you do and your attitudes; I don't think anyone should feel bad about that, not when it's public domain and posted by the dancer herself.

 

[PracticalDancer]

I needed to wait until I was awake (2 cups of coffee) to comment on this, because there are a lot of salient points in this thread.

That said, I have been posting in other threads about the dances presented -- I hope I have commented on the DANCE and not the DANCER; but, I am human and thus prone to flaws.

So, several things come to mind when reading this. I will present them in the order that I learned them.

1. One of my earliest memories is when my Mom was in Art school, getting her BFA. She already had a degree in Art History, and she was then taking a crack at becoming an Artist. I was about 5 when she said that one key element of her coursework was on giving and accepting critique; that there was a distinct difference between critique (where positive and constructive feedback is given) and criticism (where you can get ripped to shreds).
2. I remember the early days of the Internet, where my then-boyfriend tried to explain the concept of a "discussion board" me. It seemed really odd that people would go online to discuss things, when you couldn't see faces, understand emotions, learn the context of their comments, and there was no controlled point of ending, the debate could just go on . . . and on . . . and on.
2b. One of our best friends said a really good line about discussion boards and the like, "Winning an argument on the internet is like winning in the Special Olympics. You might have won; but, it is still the Special Olympics." He took some heat for that comment, but he had a sibling who competed in the SO. (context, people -- see the thing about context?)
3. I later went to work for a company (still there) where we have a very structured approach to giving and receiving feedback, a "mature model", if you will. One discusses the BEHAVIORS and the IMPACTS of the behaviors, not the PERSON. One measure of success is whether someone can both DELIVER and RECEIVE feedback successfully and according to those principles.
3b. And, as I have gone through these exercises at work, I have learned that CONTEXT is the most important thing when trying to give feedback. It is one thing to just look back and say "you did X wrong here." It is a whole nother matter to say, "Why did you do X here? What was your goal? Have you considered doing Y there instead? When you have tried Y in the past, what happened?"

And I think that is why I am sooooo troubled by video clips: they so limit our access to context. It can be hard to tell who posted the clip, what relationship they have to the dance, what the setting was, what the music was, where they are in there dance, etc.

Sometimes, we do have that context. In the case of the "tribal fusion" (parallel discussion), the clip appears to have been posted by the dancer, who commented extensively, albeit defensively.

I have gone on record in this forum with my thoughts on emotion (see the Yana and the "what makes something beledi" threads). I have gone on record in the "hanging up the hipscarf" thread about what is on and off record for critique. (I think I typed, "criticize my technique all you want, but my joy is off limits.")

Thus, I think it is ok to critIQUE, but not to critICIZE.

Sorry for the long post. Lot to chew on here.

Regards,

Anala

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Thank you Anala for your long but very worth while post. :clap:

Sometimes I get the sense these dicussions are more about who is the 'Angel and who is the 'Devil' and nothing to do with dance or the critque of it.

 

[Kharis]

The other side is I wish beginner dancers would not post clips of themselves for the whole world - it puts them in a vulnerable position.

Perhaps they do because they are proud of what they have so far achieved, and whilst we are all seasoned dancers, who have gone through our beginner bit, they are still at the stage where they think they are wonderful, and want to share it and show it off. I guess we all have bubbles that get burst....but should we perhaps think or put ourselves in their place, before we go pop it with our pins.

 

[dreamthief666]

Perhaps they do because they are proud of what they have so far achieved, and whilst we are all seasoned dancers, who have gone through our beginner bit, they are still at the stage where they think they are wonderful, and want to share it and show it off. I guess we all have bubbles that get burst....but should we perhaps think or put ourselves in their place, before we go pop it with our pins.

i got the impression she was a seasoned dancer who had invented a new form of md dance, not sure it needed it but as i do ATS then maybe glass houses etc, but i think this is worlds away from a newbie just being clumsy due to inexperince, :think:

 

[Kharis]

i got the impression she was a seasoned dancer who had invented a new form of md dance, not sure it needed it but as i do ATS then maybe glass houses etc, but i think this is worlds away from a newbie just being clumsy due to inexperince, :think:

What she says or claims and reality is obviously at odds here. It could be she's either just whacky and egotistical, or she's got mental health issues. Her general behaviour and comments remind me of a few students I've known who have suffered breakdowns...they behaved in a very similar way. So I find this clip disturbing for this reason. That's just my perception of it, and her, and I could be wrong. She does state on one of defensive posts to those ganging up on her... 'Treat me as you would like to be treated yourself.' I felt sorry for her.

 

[khanjar]

What I see with this world at the moment, is an overwhelming desire to become famous, and do it as quickly as possible. With our media the way it is, daily there is a new face, it seems if the faces on tv has accelerated in recent years, people know this and think that could be me and hopes of fame and fortune to follow, the get rich quick scenario

Youtube is such a facility which can do this, it has been done and people know that, but the ability to receive comments which can be taken as critique on the show can enamour a person into believing they are good at what they do, or on the other hand, it can set up negativities which otherwise would have been unfounded if it were not for this kind of instant public exposure. I believe Youtube in the case of performers especially beginners is not a good platform for one to expose onself onto and I would advise against anyone thinking of doing so.

It strikes me as to a person wanting to expose themselves to the online world, with many it could be a result of insecurity, a need to be seen, admired by a faceless audience, maybe it is me and my pattern of thought, but I see mal health in this practice. I do hold a Youtube account, and I do comment on some videos, but always when I comment, I comment in words I would say to the person's face, usually those who I comment on, are people I have met or know. I will not leave a bad comment for anyone, even if I did not like the performance, I simply move on, as I do care for people's feelings.

Critique I will for myself accept, but only critique from those I know and respect, as to me where there is respect, the critique I know to be honest and is therefore a guide to me.

Youtube though, one just has to ask in the case of a performer, is it a good thing or bad, it can be either and both at the same time, just one has to think hard before doing it, but as always, people don't think.

One positive I do know of, was my dance teacher, she performed her own choreography to Carmine T Guida's Buchbut Baladi only to receive her first comment from Carmine T. Guida himself and it was very complementry, I was impressed, so whatever anyone else says in comment it pails into insignificance after her first comment being the musician's good words.