experimental or tribal fusion?

[Sita]

Discworld? Terry Patchett?? :lol: quite a few of my pals to to those conventions.. if they have any desire to turn it into 'Belly dance...' I shall remain friendless..:lol:

I think to be fair to this particular performer, she was performing at a fusion faire, and this is perhaps the right environment to try out these new ideas.

Having said that, the words 'Bene Gesserit Belly dance' made me do this..:shok: and then and then and then :think:

This potentiallyy means that this style of 'Belly dance' *cough* could turn up just about anywhere..

Get the coast guards out!!!!

True, although the comments I made were intended in general as well as in reference to this particular clip. But by "fusion faire" I imagine we mean bellydance or Tribal fusion and in that case I think it still stands. An audience expect to see some connection to the umbrella style (Tribal fusion), I don't think this was the case. I saw nothing that made me think "Tribal Fusion", just yoga.

However I've got to be honest this is nothing to what I've seen by professionals. A friend of mine has the "Gothic belly dance" DVD and there is a weird and frankly bewildering performance by Neon of New York that perfectly emulates that image of the kitty. A performance in some plastic tube covering:shok:. I honestly prefer the clip in the O.P.

In both cases the label experimental is fine because your are signaling to your audience that this is basically an experiment in movement - where anything could happen. "Fusion" denotes something else to me and "Tribal Fusion" creates connections to a particular feel, style and aesthetic in most peoples minds. Even performing this at a Dune type convention would give it more relevance.

As for T.P's Discworld and bellydance:naghty: I think cosmic Moorish dancing and exploding pyramids kind of eliminates the real need for such a form.:lol:

To give you an idea of the Neon tube thing there is a tiny clip at 0:026:


Sita

 

[Aniseteph]

<rushes off to check copy of Pyramids for BD references...> And if I ever go all cosmic goddessy on you all it'll be Morris Fusion all the way, we are the Yin and Yang of the Dancing Cosmos, just you see if I'm not right...

:redface:

Sorry. Back to normal, need coffee.

Bene Gesserit BD? I'm already at and heading for

 

[Kharis]

Having said that, the words 'Bene Gesserit Belly dance' made me do this..:shok: and then and then and then :think:
QUOTE]


She states that her reasoning behind this is because the Bene Gesserit used exceptional muscle control and isolations and she is basing her dance style on this philosophy. The fact that the Bene Gesserit are fiction and fabrication is apparently overlooked....in her mind it appears to be real enough to do this. She believes it.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Seems like Sita might think Discworld is true too.. :lol:

Well I suppose it's no different from people who believe Belly dancing started with naked woman gyrating around the pyramids :dance:.

 

[Sita]

<rushes off to check copy of Pyramids for BD references...> And if I ever go all cosmic goddessy on you all it'll be Morris Fusion all the way, we are the Yin and Yang of the Dancing Cosmos, just you see if I'm not right...

:redface:

Sorry. Back to normal, need coffee.

Bene Gesserit BD? I'm already at and heading for

I actually think that there might have been a vague bd reference in T.P's Mort but I can't remember. However I would quite enjoy seeing a bellydancer with the stage name of Ptraci (pr. Traci) and the secret cult of High Priest of Djellibaby:lol:.

However I'm with you it's Morris dancing goddessy fusion all the way for me too:dance:

Sorry back to the O.T. I don't think the subculture inspiration is a problem at all many people incorporate Jedi etc. elements into their life.. why not?
But can anything be gained from displaying that form to an audience who doesn't understand the reference? For me "Bene Gesserit" means nothing, so to understand it would take a long explanation and I imagine for many of those audience members the same applies. I think this goes back to the Venn diagram. That's why venue and audience need to be considered... I don't think this performance would have had as much difficultly being understood if it was presented at some kind of Dune fan event. People would at least understand it. Additionally issues of definition would not be a problem like they are a b.d/T.F event.

At least she can justify her artistic moves in some form - the professional clip I mentioned does not even do that. I'm unaware of the other threads about this dancer that have been mentioned but I am surprised they were so severe when professionals, who should be held to a higher account, have done worse.


Sita

 

[Sita]

Seems like Sita might think Discworld is true too.. :lol:
hey, literature is my area I'm supposed to take it seriously:lol::lol: and I can present an argument into fantasy as forms of reality see Carpentier on Magical realism
Well I suppose it's no different from people who believe Belly dancing started with naked woman gyrating around the pyramids :dance:.

*mourns the fact that she has never YET been to a Discworld convention *
Sita

 

[shiradotnet]

However I've got to be honest this is nothing to what I've seen by professionals. A friend of mine has the "Gothic belly dance" DVD and there is a weird and frankly bewildering performance by Neon of New York that perfectly emulates that image of the kitty. A performance in some plastic tube covering

I have that DVD. The performer is actually Ayshe, and she's some sort of a butterfly coming out of a cocoon. I don't see anything remotely resembling belly dance in that performance. She dances it very well - she's a very skilled performer of an entirely different genre, modern dance. So I like watching her dance, but I didn't think that performance was appropriate to a DVD with 'belly dance" in its title. Ditto some other performances on that DVD by some other people.

 

[Sita]

I have that DVD. The performer is actually Ayshe, and she's some sort of a butterfly coming out of a cocoon. I don't see anything remotely resembling belly dance in that performance. She dances it very well - she's a very skilled performer of an entirely different genre, modern dance. So I like watching her dance, but I didn't think that performance was appropriate to a DVD with 'belly dance" in its title. Ditto some other performances on that DVD by some other people.

apologies for referencing the wrong artist. Sorry again, I forgot to thank you for correcting me and providing context to the clip Shira :redface:. So Thank you.

To clarify my argument in general though: the issue for me is not one of talent but relevance, so I'm not arguing on how talented the dancers in both clips may or may not be (after all the yoga positions are fine in the o.p's clip). For me I'm just discussing in terms of definition and dance boundaries.I think your right Shira: many of the performances on that DVD were not appropriate to be presented as bellydance. As an audience member I was baffled by quite a few.

Sita

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I have that DVD. The performer is actually Ayshe, and she's some sort of a butterfly coming out of a cocoon. I don't see anything remotely resembling belly dance in that performance. She dances it very well - she's a very skilled performer of an entirely different genre, modern dance. So I like watching her dance, but I didn't think that performance was appropriate to a DVD with 'belly dance" in its title. Ditto some other performances on that DVD by some other people.

And that brings us back around to the same crux of the debate... that word belly dance! :lol:

I love dance... I love some forms more than others.. I can even sit through a Bene Gesserit interpretation by Zoso..I dont know whether I would particularly like it :think:.

but the point is, is it 'belly dance'? no it is totally not.

So therefore I am asking is it Tribal or fusion?.. it seems people will not accept it as this either. I took a quick look at the Tribe debate, perhaps i am thinking correctly that it is being rejected on percieved lack of skill?

Skilled dance is always worth watching regardless of the label and sometimes this debate is often cofused with a love or hate of belly dance versus tribal/fusion.

Here is a definition of opinion from wik.

opinion - a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty;

Do people here accept that is what the definition of opinion is?

If not, let's establish the meaning of opinion.

If we agree on the above definition, we can move forward with this discussion.. because I believe that 'Belly dance' is a proven art form based on 'fact', meaning something which has been agreed upon from a certain time and place and not just an opinion.

 

[Aniseteph]

And that brings us back around to the same crux of the debate... that word belly dance! :lol:

I knew that's where we were heading...

If we agree on the above definition, we can move forward with this discussion.. because I believe that 'Belly dance' is a proven art form based on 'fact', meaning something which has been agreed upon from a certain time and place and not just an opinion.

My opinion is that that is a resonable definition of opinion.

I think that even group A identifies the facts, time/place, what makes it what it is etc, and totally pin it down, group B are going to reject that (we could speculate on why :think and say "yes but the belly dance WE are doing is different". It's the ownership of that word. :wall:

 

[Jane]

Started new thread on define belly dance. Just for this.

 

[Jane]

I'm very interested in your original question Caroline. I'm not qualified to weigh in because I'm not a Tribal or Fusion dancer. I consider myself a "developing Raqs Sharqi" dancer due to my American accent.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Jane said..I'm very interested in your original question Caroline. I'm not qualified to weigh in because I'm not a Tribal or Fusion dancer. I consider myself a "developing Raqs Sharqi" dancer due to my American accent.

Me too Jane, but Tribal and fusion enthusiasts appear thin on the ground here right now.

You know, a discussion for me is based on presenting different ideas and solid evidence for consideration...not an opinion.

The discussion here always boils down to opinion, and that just does not cut it for me. I am interested in hearing peoples opinions but it will not change history.

The fact that I dont think 'Bene G belly dance' is 'belly dance', is not based on my personal likes and dislikes. It is a conclusion based on my informed knowledge of this dance and it's history. I am also aware of the political ramifications of adopting and changing another persons culture from a Western persective.

I totally understand Tribal was inspired by Belly dance in America (and probably American Oriental at that), but the creation of this new form has led to the creation of other new forms and a redefining of the word 'belly dance' which frankly (personal opinion) I find ludicrous.

In order to study and analyse this issue and what is going on, we need to zoom in on particular genres who use this heading, and this sometimes means the artist involved.

 

[Maria_Aya]

:shok:

 

[Shanazel]

When an expert witness offers an opinion in court, the opinion is based upon his or her training, education, and experience in the field- but it is still an opinion. You can bet the opposing side will also have an expert witness with an opinion based on training, education, and experiece- and the opinion is likely to be opposite of the other expert's opinion on the same matter.

Discussions consist of informed opinions, not unassailable conclusions.

 

[Sita]

When an expert witness offers an opinion in court, the opinion is based upon his or her training, education, and experience in the field- but it is still an opinion. You can bet the opposing side will also have an expert witness with an opinion based on training, education, and experiece- and the opinion is likely to be opposite of the other expert's opinion on the same matter.

Discussions consist of informed opinions, not unassailable conclusions.

I agree. I also think that there is a clear hierarchy of oppinion on any given subject. For example Fifi Abdou commenting on what defines bellydance way out ranks most other dancers oppinions. ATS - Caroline N. etc.

Sita

 

[Caroline_afifi]

When an expert witness offers an opinion in court, the opinion is based upon his or her training, education, and experience in the field- but it is still an opinion. You can bet the opposing side will also have an expert witness with an opinion based on training, education, and experiece- and the opinion is likely to be opposite of the other expert's opinion on the same matter.

Discussions consist of informed opinions, not unassailable conclusions.

I agree but..:lol:

A friend of mine is a Psychologist for the Crown Prosecution service in the UK.
She is asked for her Expert opinion based on the things you say.

That is different from say a person who saw another person leave their house wearing a blue coat at 4.00pm. They know it was 4.00pm because they looked at 3 clocks and saw the person out of the door along with 3 others who confirmed the same thing.

Now, whether the person in the dock is sane or not is an opinion.

If we are saying that Badia Masabni was not a real person but an opinion... then.. what is left for me to say?

I am not always the best at explaining things, but I do know what I am trying to say... and I do believe that some of the history of this dance that took place in the last century is not in dispute and has been backed up as solid evidence.

History beyond this relating to tombs, wombs and temples is in dispute because there is alot less documented about it..

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I agree. I also think that there is a clear hierachy of oppinion on any given subject. For example Fifi Abdou commenting on what defines bellydance way out ranks most other dancers oppinions. ATS - Caroline N. etc.

Sita

Exactly.

There is also a difference between ongoing experiential learning at the cultural centre versus reading a book and gathering a perspective and creative idea thousands of miles away.

 

[Sita]

I agree but..:lol:

A friend of mine is a Psychologist for the Crown Prosecution service in the UK.
She is asked for her Expert opinion based on the things you say.

That is different from say a person who saw another person leave their house wearing a blue coat at 4.00pm. They know it was 4.00pm because they looked at 3 clocks and saw the person out of the door along with 3 others who confirmed the same thing.

Now, whether the person in the dock is sane or not is an opinion.

If we are saying that Badia Masabni was not a real person but an opinion... then.. what is left for me to say?

I am not always the best at explaining things, but I do know what I am trying to say... and I do believe that some of the history of this dance that took place in the last century is not in dispute and has been backed up as solid evidence.

History beyond this relating to tombs, wombs and temples is in dispute because there is alot less documented about it..

In legal terms would that be claiming precedent?
I think that notion works quite well for the discussion. Badia Masabni is the precedent here - an established rule so to speak on what is bellydance.
not sure how accurate my interpretation is as I'm not student of law or anything like that (just like crime dramas :redface - Shanazel?
Sita

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Ok, Lets arrange a mock court date and lets see who shall be called for Jury service!!!!

What a scream... :lol::lol::lol:

Come on...at least we can laugh about this!!!! :dance:

Who can we call upon as 'expert witnesses'? :think:

Can I be one?