a slightly complex question

[Mosaic]

I don't know about the early years in Australia, probably the dance was influenced to begin with by Am-Cab, but from what I see here now, the dance style is Egyptian, with so many dancers travelling to Egypt and taking classes with some of the well known dancers in Egypt, the travel is quite constant, and dancers go over & over again. Egyptian style has a very strong influence here maybe 85- 90%. There is also some Turkish & Lebanese influence as there is quite a large community in Australia of Turkish & Lebanese people.
~Mosaic

 

[Pleasant dancer]

:clap: Skipload of rep to you.

I know far more about belly dance from forums than from going to workshops and festivals.

:think: That sounds completely backwards! The physical how-to's are mostly going to come from classes and workshops, but the background and context, and a way to read and evaluate what you are seeing (and hearing, with the music)... for me that comes mostly from forums.

It'd take years to get the same info from just attending classes and workshops.

Absolutely agree. My first teacher of Egyptian belly dance had never been to Egypt and told the class nothing about any cultural background. I learned more from the Internet (and from working a few seasons in Egypt as an archaeologist where all our Egyptian co-workers and their families danced) I knew more than she did about the cultural background (but didn't like to admit it!)

Having sad all that, it is difficult in a one hour class to impart all that cultural stuff (but not entirely impossible I would venture). Thoughts anyone?

 

[Aniseteph]

Having sad all that, it is difficult in a one hour class to impart all that cultural stuff (but not entirely impossible I would venture). Thoughts anyone?

I totally agree with this too - for me a one hour class is too short for the dancing, let alone anything else. IMO a teacher should explain something about the music, styles etc., just so you know what you are doing, but it's unreasonable to expect to be spoon fed an understaning of why beledi isn't tribal isn't raks sharki isn't.... etc etc. Go do some homework if you are interested!

A lot of people are just not that interested beyond going to a class once a week and having a bit of fun. If they aren't going out performing or teaching, fair enough, IMO.

What level of student jolly well OUGHT to be interested in the background is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish, or can of worms... <runs off to bury can opener in garden>

 

[Sita]

I've also wondered this. I don't think it can be called AmCab because as you said it appears more "watered down" than the American version, which appears to have a clearer structure and framework to performances. I also think that we have quite a restricted dance in term of style as there appears to be a lot less Turkish and Lebanese influence. I suppose "Oriental" is the best term I would use to describe it. Although recently there's been more awareness of different styles and more dancers going to Egypt and taking on certain elements of that. At the sametime there's an additional American influence in terms of BDSS and dvd tutorials that must have an effect on the style. What would we call Horatio and Beatriz Cifuentes? I also find those hard to place :think:

Sita

 

[Afrit]

I don't know about the early years in Australia, probably the dance was influenced to begin with by Am-Cab, but from what I see here now, the dance style is Egyptian, with so many dancers travelling to Egypt and taking classes with some of the well known dancers in Egypt, the travel is quite constant, and dancers go over & over again. Egyptian style has a very strong influence here maybe 85- 90%. There is also some Turkish & Lebanese influence as there is quite a large community in Australia of Turkish & Lebanese people.
~Mosaic

Depends on where you are. I certainly have never seen a 5 or 7 part routine in a show in Sydney. Sydney was similar to the US in that dancers learnt their trade from immigrants (mostly Greeks I think). In Perth Belyssa was a student of Bobby Farah so would be of that style of AmCab - ie not Jamila/West Coast style.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I don't think many people would consider Sadie to be American Cabaret based off the definition of AmCab as specific music and the 5-part style presentation.

She's high energy modern American Oriental. How's that? CWHATS, as has been suggested.


Zum -- the very obvious "shimmy on the qanoun, dum on the down" Ramzy Rules weren't all that obvious in all areas of the US. But we really didn't have a lot of "classic" Egyptian music until the 80s, and it's that kind of music that dictates the rules, not the folky debke-y stuff.

 

[Moon]

Personally, I think it can. There are some places in my country (Netherlands) where it's referred to as "American style".

For example, I read this on a website explaining different styles of bellydance (translated): "...The American style is an assemblage of Turkish, Lebanese, Egyptian, a large dose of Orientalism (a romantic fantasy about what it would be like in the Orient) and American show elements..."

Also, there is an advanced bellydance course in my country where, apart from the several Egyptian and Turkish styles, "Western/American style" is tought.

And with American style here I mean what you would describe as AmCab, not ATS (thought that's being tought here as well, usually seperately, as "tribal" or "tribal fusion").

 

[Zumarrad]

I don't know about the early years in Australia, probably the dance was influenced to begin with by Am-Cab, but from what I see here now, the dance style is Egyptian, with so many dancers travelling to Egypt and taking classes with some of the well known dancers in Egypt, the travel is quite constant, and dancers go over & over again. Egyptian style has a very strong influence here maybe 85- 90%. There is also some Turkish & Lebanese influence as there is quite a large community in Australia of Turkish & Lebanese people.
~Mosaic

I know there was the odd dancer there back in the 60s and who knows what they were doing and where they learned it, but Amera told me that when she started there was no American influence, it was all "what the musicians told us to do." With such large communities of Lebanese, Turkish and Greek migrants it's no surprise that a more Levantine/Mediterranean influenced dance would have developed there.

One of my great crusades is for people to start researching BD in their own countries, because I think we believe, because we have been told, that it *all* comes out of the US and while the US is obviously very influential, I'd love to know the story of BD in France, Germany and other countries where there are close relationships and migration from Arabic countries and Turkey. Going right back. France had a world exposition with Algerian dancers just like the US (the same ones in fact!) - what influence did that event have on entertainments and fashions in France? France got the Arabian Nights first and there was that whole Napoleon in Egypt thing, not to mention the rampant conquering of bits of north Africa.

 

[lizaj]

I know there was the odd dancer there back in the 60s and who knows what they were doing and where they learned it, but Amera told me that when she started there was no American influence, it was all "what the musicians told us to do." With such large communities of Lebanese, Turkish and Greek migrants it's no surprise that a more Levantine/Mediterranean influenced dance would have developed there.

One of my great crusades is for people to start researching BD in their own countries, because I think we believe, because we have been told, that it *all* comes out of the US and while the US is obviously very influential, I'd love to know the story of BD in France, Germany and other countries where there are close relationships and migration from Arabic countries and Turkey. Going right back. France had a world exposition with Algerian dancers just like the US (the same ones in fact!) - what influence did that event have on entertainments and fashions in France? France got the Arabian Nights first and there was that whole Napoleon in Egypt thing, not to mention the rampant conquering of bits of north Africa.

As to research..I have on offer this very present moment...a modestly remunerated post for someone willing to research belly dance in the UK and share that in the way of 3 contributions a year to our association's magazine !

 

[Kashmir]

I know there was the odd dancer there back in the 60s and who knows what they were doing and where they learned it, but Amera told me that when she started there was no American influence, it was all "what the musicians told us to do." With such large communities of Lebanese, Turkish and Greek migrants it's no surprise that a more Levantine/Mediterranean influenced dance would have developed there.

I did some asking around for my lecture - but the Oz section was part that was cut for time constraints (next year we'll make it 4 2-hour lectures rather than 2 3-hour ones )

Sydney was the earliest to have a "first generation" ie the dance being learnt by non-Middle Easterners. A young Greek woman, Rozeta Ahalyea, started teaching in the early 1960s. Amera and Terezka were two of her students.

I think Perth came next. In this case via Belyssa who studied with Serena Wilson then Bobby Farrah. So quite different from NZ where our connection was west coast/Jamila style.

Queensland waited until 1979 - with Elenie. A trained dancer who picked up belly dance to fill a performance need. Yasmini was quite a bit later. And Maria later still.

No much luck so far with tracking down anyone in Melbourne who was in the scene way back when.

 

[Mosaic]

Thanks Zum & Kashmir, your posts have filled in some gaps for me. I know of 2 dancers who have been around for a while here in Melbourne who may have info on the earlier dancers, I will contact them & see what they know.
~Mosaic

 

[Farasha Hanem]

Dear Jenc,
I think this will always be the case as so many people now consider anything belly dance to be Egyptian. On one hand this is good that people do relate it to either Turkish or more commonly Egyptian. But there is alot more to it than that as we all know. There really is so much to get your head around with this dance. I know many people say they simply cannot afford to attend festivals etc. but these forums are a good place to start the brain juices flowing, and so much can be learned just reading these discussions.
There are few exuses really.

Dear Farasha,
I dont know the answer to that question as I am not fully aware of how dancers dance in the US and Australia.
Going back to my early attempt at this dance, I would say it was based on the Amcab format but a weaker and poorer version. It was a bit like what we call 'Chinese wispers' so it became diluted and very wishy washy.

Most of the dance styles related to belly dance were from the imagination.
It was mostly fantasy based pantomime stuff... a good exuse to make friends and dress up really...I have to say it still is for many but there are far more opportunities and quality teaching than there were before.
More people are also travelling to the lands of the dance.

With regards to renaming the dance Western Belly dance I would reject that idea totally.

The reason is, we dont rename anything else we have in the West which came from other places, it is not ours do do that. We cannot simply claim ownership over something which did not belong to us.

There are also political implications of something like this, we must remember our colonial past in the UK, France, Potugal and Spain..and tha fact that the US is the world superpower and the ongoing tensions in the Middle East.
Some people will simply cringe at the notion of the word 'belly dance' and 'American' being in the same sentence.

Initially that was my response, but I thought about it and realised that everything created in the last 500 years in the US was from other cultures.
This is what makes it 'American'. That in itself is a mind boggling concept.

Ahhhh, I get it. I only asked because of the terms, "AmCab," and "American Oriental." They just kind of feel like they leave out British and Australian bellydancers, not to mention dancers in South America and Canada. Probably Mexico, too. :think: However, you're right; it's not our culture, and not our dance to rename.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

This is a really fascinating discsussion. It is really interesting to read about the foundations of this dance in NZ, Aus and UK. It seems these places had the dance imported to the GP from the US.

In London, we too had the Greek influence via the cl;ub scene but i would perhaps consider Vashti to be Amcab influenced in terms of some opf the performances I have seen of her.

She used veil, sagat and occasionaly floowork in her routines. I am not sure if they were 5 or 7 part though.

What about Europe? is anyone here from other countries who can add to the discussion with regards to how this dance developed?

 

[jenc]

I think you can get a bit too hung up on the idea of the set routine as being the defining characteristic of AmCab (apoplogies to efveryone who doesn't like the name - its the easiest to type - although not if you get sidetracked into long explanations as to why you use it)

I have also seen postings on Bhuz saying that no one can call themselves a bellydancer if they can't play zills (from an American dancer) but I don't think this is the point either.

There are definately american (Western) moves and other dance habits, which may show that non-egyptian dacers have something in common
There is also a different movement vocab

 

[Daimona]

What about Europe? is anyone here from other countries who can add to the discussion with regards to how this dance developed?

A quick history of belly dance in Norway:
Except from some weekend workshops with foreign teachers (Swedes and Danes) in the 80ies, it seems that "nobody" (i.e. to my present knowledge) in Norway did belly dance seriously until early to mid 1990ies. It also seems like Norwegians various places started belly dancing almost simultaneously.

Some of the first pioneers had lived in the ME or some learnt from Lebanese immigrants (Oslo and Stavanger regions) or were influenced by Greek belly dance (the Trondheim region). Most of the pioneers and well-known teachers today then travelled to Egypt for further knowledge and tuition. A handful of dancers went to Turkey as well and some faced towards North America, but over all the Egyptian influence is the stronger than the others.

The last decade, belly dancing schools have popped up all over the country, and Tribal has reach the country. As far as I know, there are mainly ITSers in the Oslo and Stavanger regions.

 

[Anthea Kawakib]

that's a good question. I think we Americans forgot that the dance might be evolving in other countries at the same time - or maybe we WERE first in development of the "modern generic bellydance" style prevalent outside the Mideast?

we need another name for this style than AmCab, but what?

And I wonder how long we'll really have these stylistic differences now that we can all see the same youtube videos? 10, 20, 50 years?

 

[Ligeia]

The history of Belly Dance in Finland is similar to that of Norway. One of the first belly dance teachers here was Eva Hemming, a finnish ballet dancer, who herself learned the dance from Serena Wilson at the late 70's. Hemming's pupil Irene Jelin continued teaching bellydance after Hemming, and she has been one of the bellydance pioneers here. So there can be seen early american influences in Finland. There were also individual dancers who went to Egypt to learn the dance and came back to Finland to teach what they had learn.

Today, egyptian style is most popular and respected here in Finland. There are some individual teachers who prefer for example lebanese style, or immigrants of various origins who teach dance style of their own birth land. Some teachers also like to fuse belly dance with western dance styles, for example modern dance. However, egyptian style is usually most common sight at performances, festivals and haflas, and egyptian folk dances are the bread-and-butter of many shows. It is also worth noticing that Mohamed el Hosseny, previous member of Mahmoud Redas folk dance troupe, has a dance studio at Finland's capital, Helsinki.

Lately, the tribal trend has also reached Finland. There are currently only a couple of ATS-groups, and to my knowledge only one active dance group specializing in tribal fusion. However, interest towards both ATS and tribal fusion is rising.

 

[Shanazel]

I liked the 5-7 part dance style, and if I was invited to do a classic American-style performance, I would probably still use it. However, every American performance prior to 1980 did not use necessarily use this format.

I recall those conversations re: the only dancers who didn't play zils in performance were the ones who didn't know how to play them. My thoughts were it was better to remain zil-less and be thought untutored than to play the darn things and remove all doubt.

I've never been too comfortable with the designation American Oriental Dance, but I am working to move away from Old Style AmCab in favor of Classic American Belly Dance as a designation for what I do (this is Rocky's influence).

Of course, way back when, we just called it belly dance.

 

[indrayu]

Getting a bit parochial here, and thinking about the information about the beginnings of "bellydance" outside immigrant communities in Sydney, being earlier than anyone here knows of in Melbourne. Melbourne has for decades had the reputation as being the third-largest Greek city in the world; as a visitor to Melbourne during the 70s, there was also an obvious presence of large communities originating from Turkey, Palestine and other places. Meanwhile my experience of Sydney at that time was that it was a very "Anglo-Celtic" place in large areas of the inner city. You couldn't even get a good cup of coffee, let alone listen to poetry in other languages and come home with a box of baklava!

So, I'm theorising here, but maybe in Melbourne, with the presence of immigrants throughout the city, and the old "white Australian" attitude of "them" and "us" (count me out, I called my father Papa not Dad) the Anglo-Celts who defined what is mainstream were reluctant to take on "wog stuff" in a big way, until it became acceptable because it was fashionable in other admired cities. In the same way that now I live in an area with many Indigenous people, I hear the sort of racist comments regularly that very few would dare say, in places with less direct contact with Aboriginal people.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I think what is abundently clear, is the world wide development of 'belly dance' was actually from two places.. East or West Coast USA.

Fascinating.