Sadie and Kaya in an "erotic" music video....

[Miranda Phoenix]

I agree - but do you agree that she does not have the baby-face, and so can't pull off that innocent sexiness that Dina and Suhaila could?

I see exactly what you're talking about. The poor girl / lucky lady (depending upon one's own honesty / character) was born with strong features and incredible pouty lips that, even in the most playful or mischievous of smiles, invites all the "wrong" impressions.

I had not thought of that aspect before. Good insight, Aziyade!

 

[Ariadne]

Kaya has very strong features and there is just no way her face would ever come across as "innocent and baby-like."

As an artist I am going to both agree and disagree. No, her face would not be considered "baby-like" but innocence, playfulness, warmth, intensity, confrontation, all these are determined not by the shape of the face but by what muscles are engaged. There is a reason we read a significant amount of body language from the face. The impression her face usually gives based on the muscles used is that of confrontation, challenge, or "smoldering eyes". (I have seen a few performances where she actually looked like she was having fun and I enjoyed those ones much more.) I was told that Kaya was a model before she became a dancer so (if true) that really isn't too surprising considering the training models receive. If it is the case it may have done her a disservice when she changed careers, though I have my doubts about whether she would agree with me since she describes herself as "exotic".


All that said I think she and Sadie know exactly what they are doing. When I went to Kaya's personal website I read in her Bio about "Groove du Monde", their dance company, doing "Belly Dance, Brazilian Samba, Circus-Burlesque, Tahitian, Salsa, and more"; performances like "Tales of the Kama Sutra" are described as being "Las Vegas style". I think they are going for a very specific audience and this video fits in with that perfectly.


Personally I find it a little sad. Everyone I know who has met her says she's a lovely person with a great sense of humor. I would never know it to watch her dance though and I personally cannot support someone who knowingly and deliberately develops this kind of reputation.

 

[Farasha Hanem]

I think it is important what kind of image you project as a dancer. There is a book (which Shira reviewed on her site not so long ago) called Belly Dancing Basics, by Laura A. Cooper. Although I disagree with her discourse in the first chaper on bellydance "history," I like what she says in the ending chapter on the conduct of a dancer. In chapter 8 on page 136, under "Dancer Etiquette," she has this to say in the last paragraph:

All forms of perfection have their cheap imitations and belly dancing is no exception. Misconduct by imposters in belly dancing costumes, as well as inappropriate portrayal of the art by the media, have diluted our legitimacy. But as long as there are still true belly dancers out there, the art of the belly dance is redeemable. The dancer herself must re-educate the viewing public and participants and show them what belly dancing really is---and what it is not.

Ms. Cooper goes on to say that she's careful to teach her students to conduct themselves in such a way as to not mar their reputations, to "always be a lady," both off and on the stage. In this way, we do not add to the stigma that belly dance suffers from, and we can re-educate the GP that we are in no way related to the sex trade industry.

We are indeed representatives of our art, and it's such a disappointment that these two talented young women are damaging the legitimacy of the dance as an art form.

If you don't mind me asking, what did happen at Rakkasah, and when was this? I'm a bit out of the loop.

While I'm at it, this is the same Sadie in question, isn't it? I can't think of any other it could be:

YouTube - Sadie BellyDance

 

[bellyfester]

While I'm at it, this is the same Sadie in question, isn't it? I can't think of any other it could be:

YouTube - Sadie BellyDance

Yep it is.

 

[lizaj]

I assume you mean they are aiming for an adult audience with their "slant" on the dance but these videos are not only watched by adults. They are watched by young people and lights keep getting switched on in fertile pre-teen,early teen mind. "Gee I'm supposed to smack my b*tch around" "Gee I'm supposed to be at the beck and call of my pimp and be all sexee for him whatever he does to me"
I remain as the first time(I tried to) watch this sh*te,disgusted with these 2 women and I hope next time either lands at Heathrow, they get put back on the plane (it can be arranged)by nice I.O.s

 

[Zumarrad]

Re the comparison with Dina: I think you could better compare with Madonna. Now Madonna has done videos/books where she's grovelling about with people of both sexes and can be highly provocative, but the thing with Madonna is, she is *always in charge*. Even if she's got a chained collar on, you don't get the impression that Madonna is just there to go "oh hai I'm so hot, and so is my friend. My what a big knife you have." She is the featured act and the central figure and she *directs* what you see of her. Although Dina is very different to Madonna, I think in those ways she is the same. She's in charge, she's the one deciding to be looked at, and she's got a sense of power.

It's weird. Kaya and Sadie *should* seem powerful, if not in this video then in their own more BDish work together, but they don't. They don't seem as if they're taking charge of their viewers' sexuality. They seem to be presenting themselves solely as objects, in a rather boringly conventional way at that, and I think that's what I don't like about their work together.

 

[lizaj]

Re the comparison with Dina: I think you could better compare with Madonna. Now Madonna has done videos/books where she's grovelling about with people of both sexes and can be highly provocative, but the thing with Madonna is, she is *always in charge*. Even if she's got a chained collar on, you don't get the impression that Madonna is just there to go "oh hai I'm so hot, and so is my friend. My what a big knife you have." She is the featured act and the central figure and she *directs* what you see of her. Although Dina is very different to Madonna, I think in those ways she is the same. She's in charge, she's the one deciding to be looked at, and she's got a sense of power.

It's weird. Kaya and Sadie *should* seem powerful, if not in this video then in their own more BDish work together, but they don't. They don't seem as if they're taking charge of their viewers' sexuality. They seem to be presenting themselves solely as objects, in a rather boringly conventional way at that, and I think that's what I don't like about their work together.

Yup you got it!:clap:
It's this mistaking sexual liberation but (s)exploitation.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

As an artist I am going to both agree and disagree. No, her face would not be considered "baby-like" but innocence, playfulness, warmth, intensity, confrontation, all these are determined not by the shape of the face but by what muscles are engaged. There is a reason we read a significant amount of body language from the face. The impression her face usually gives based on the muscles used is that of confrontation, challenge, or "smoldering eyes".

Good point -- I hadn't thought of that.

All that said I think she and Sadie know exactly what they are doing.

Oh I agree completely! I was just giving some background on their pre-Rakkasah-debacle performing and reputation.

Unfortunately in the world, and to misquote Don Henley, notoriety gets confused with fame. They have succeeded in making everybody know their names. Unfortunately for our art form, we know their names in this context.


Offtopic, but you know there are some names that we just SHOULDN'T know. Why on earth do I know the name Tonya Harding and why am I see her face on Spike TV? Sorry, but if you behave badly, we should do to you what was done in ancient Egypt and Rome -- erase your name from the record and pop history books.

 

[Farasha Hanem]

Yep it is.

Then may a thousand camels spit upon her bedlah. >.<

I thought it was her, but I wanted to make absolutely sure. She didn't look the same in the video to me for some reason. I'm not familiar with the other dancer (I've already forgotten her name), but when those 1000 camels get through with Sadie, may they do the same to her bedlah, too.

With them still in them.

They simulated oral sex on that video?!? Then I definitely can't finish it now.

SHAME on them!!! :naghty:

 

[sultan]

There's a certain thing called artistic freedom. As Westerners possessed of expansive horizons, we need to be receptive to new artistic forms. We all know the menace of narrow mindedness and the dangers of prejudice. Art flourishes in free societies such as those we have in the West. But it does not flourish in totalitarian societies such as Nazi Germany or in Soviet Russia. For that reason, we want to keep an open mind. On that basis, I am hesitant to condemn the video as there are just as many people who will view it as art. And who is to say they are wrong?

Having said that, I didn't particularly care for the video. In fact, unlike some of you who readily approve of a BD accompanied on stage with male audience members, I have always felt the stage is for a dancer without such accompaniment. Having men in such proximity with a BD performer takes away from the aesthetics of this art form (to me). In fact, such on stage proximity makes it somewhat of a peep show.

[Sorry to sound so mean about it all.]

Therefore, I am not willing to censor the video. Like you, I have the option of not viewing it any further. Furthermore, I am not willing to say it does not constitute art. Call it what you will. Art, dance-rap, or whatever. But don't call it classical belly dance.

 

[Aniseteph]

... as there are just as many people who will view it as art.

I don't know whether to LMAO or be afraid, very afraid... I get the impression from forum discussions that this is not exactly a great example of the rap genre either. Or video making.

As for the way Kaya comes across as so sexually aggressive - I'm not sure it's the choreography that does it (talking about her more mainstream belly dancing here, not writhing about with chest on the floor and butt skyward ) - it's pretty much down to the facial expression IMO. For me that's what gives the meaning behind the move; the same chest lift can be sweet and cheeky, or in yer face challenging.... or a challenge then a smile or look that twists it into a knowing tease... <sigh> ... all that fun stuff replaced by raunch.

 

[Ariadne]

I assume you mean they are aiming for an adult audience with their "slant" on the dance but these videos are not only watched by adults. They are watched by young people and lights keep getting switched on in fertile pre-teen,early teen mind. "Gee I'm supposed to smack my b*tch around" "Gee I'm supposed to be at the beck and call of my pimp and be all sexee for him whatever he does to me"

I agree, however that is a cultural issue. These types of videos are a currant format for publicity of "adult" entertainment. No, they shouldn't be but they are.

There's a certain thing called artistic freedom. As Westerners possessed of expansive horizons, we need to be receptive to new artistic forms. We all know the menace of narrow mindedness and the dangers of prejudice. Art flourishes in free societies such as those we have in the West. But it does not flourish in totalitarian societies such as Nazi Germany or in Soviet Russia. For that reason, we want to keep an open mind. On that basis, I am hesitant to condemn the video as there are just as many people who will view it as art. And who is to say they are wrong?

1. There is nothing new artistically in this video nor has anyone suggested removing their freedom to do it. We also have the freedom to disapprove and say so. That is how freedom works.

2. Having morals, standards, and forming opinions on subjects you are knowledgeable in is not narrow minded it is being a reasoning, thinking, adult. Nor is it narrow minded to disapprove of adult themes being packaged for children. Even "free" societies have standards recognized both legally and culturally.

3. Prejudice is "unreasonable feelings" or opinions formed "without knowledge, thought, or reason". As peers of the "art form" being supposedly performed the people on this forum have both knowledge and thoughts on the subject and their experience and knowledge of the damage highly sexualized performances can do to the reputation of this dance gives plenty of reasons for their opinions.

4. Those with a right to say that they are wrong are a) their peers and b) their consumers. No one has been discussing whether it counts as art only whether it is appropriate. That is also a matter for both the peers of an artist and the culture involved.​

There is such a thing as having so open a mind that you have no reasoning or thought at all. When anything is acceptable anything and everything is done. It is like the dancers I hear who preface their dislike of the sexualization of bellydance with "I don't have anything against stripping/poledancing/nudity but...". I will happily raise my hand and say I do. Used in a performance setting these things turn women into objects instead of people and demean us all. That is my reasoned, knowledgeable, opinion and I stand on my right to have it.

 

[sultan]

"I don't know whether to LMAO or be afraid"

It's the price we pay for living in a free society. One thing's for sure - in a closed society that video would not have been presented out in the open. As for its artistic "merits", well, can't honestly say that I see any. But, it's a free country and others are free to see it as they please.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

In the fact that it's a "free country" lies the resultant implication that we're also free to bitch about it.

 

[maria_harlequin]

There's a certain thing called artistic freedom. As Westerners possessed of expansive horizons, we need to be receptive to new artistic forms. We all know the menace of narrow mindedness and the dangers of prejudice. Art flourishes in free societies such as those we have in the West. But it does not flourish in totalitarian societies such as Nazi Germany or in Soviet Russia. For that reason, we want to keep an open mind. On that basis, I am hesitant to condemn the video as there are just as many people who will view it as art. And who is to say they are wrong?

That's the problem I have as an artist where the majority thinks anything can be art just by calling it art. Like starving a stray dog is art. Sure, you have the freedom to think it's art but that doesn't mean it's actually good art or even art.

I guess my freedom ends where other people's begins...

 

[lizaj]

There's a certain thing called artistic freedom. As Westerners possessed of expansive horizons, we need to be receptive to new artistic forms. We all know the menace of narrow mindedness and the dangers of prejudice. Art flourishes in free societies such as those we have in the West. But it does not flourish in totalitarian societies such as Nazi Germany or in Soviet Russia. For that reason, we want to keep an open mind. On that basis, I am hesitant to condemn the video as there are just as many people who will view it as art. And who is to say they are wrong?

Having said that, I didn't particularly care for the video. In fact, unlike some of you who readily approve of a BD accompanied on stage with male audience members, I have always felt the stage is for a dancer without such accompaniment. Having men in such proximity with a BD performer takes away from the aesthetics of this art form (to me). In fact, such on stage proximity makes it somewhat of a peep show.

[Sorry to sound so mean about it all.]

Therefore, I am not willing to censor the video. Like you, I have the option of not viewing it any further. Furthermore, I am not willing to say it does not constitute art. Call it what you will. Art, dance-rap, or whatever. But don't call it classical belly dance.

I know what I call it and it sure ain't ART!
The most appalling thing is that this..and this is apart from any belly-dance (term applied VERY loosely)..is the images that are put before young people as indicators of appropriate behaviour. It's all very well for you as an adult to say "this is a load of fantastic bo$$ocks " but kids are NOT discerning and it's kids who watch this crapola!
Think on and stop rabitting on about censorship in Nazi Germany..there is no relevance. We are talking of protecting young people from exploitaion not poitical indoctrination.

 

[Azrael]

Wow. I've always thought of Sadie as being technically GREAT but I never really liked her because of her partnership with Kaya. I used to respect Sadie's technicality because she was the first bellydancer I saw on YouTube.

After this video... *shakes head* Like Maria said waaaay at the beginning of the thread - the video editing isn't even good! It looks like it was done of Windows Movie Maker.

Kaya & Sadie don't actually appear in the video until about halfway through, so I just laughed at the ridiculous costumes until then -- surely as professional dancers, Kaya & Sadie should be able to give them direction?? -- the head gear was a laugh... TPBDC!!

At least in hip-hop videos when they get somebody to dance "sexy" for them, as "harem" dancers then I can ignore it because it's not like those dancers are professional bellydancers or anything like that, they're just sexy girls. But now they've taken professionals and used them in a video where they're just degrading to a lot of NOTHING... *runs out of words to say*

P.S
as a side note, I mean "professional" in the sense that they make a living from dancing -- not that they behave in a professional manner! At all!!

 

[sultan]

"it sure ain't ART!"

As I wrote above, I find very little in the way of artistic merit in the video. Therefore, you won't get an argument from me. Fans of sixshot.com may disagree but that's their right, too.

I note that nobody addressed a point I raised above re a BD performer allowing male audience members on stage with her. Some of you may recall a posting I made a long time ago about an Iranian friend of mine: he strenuously said that BD is for women - that he is hesitant to allow men to attend such performances and that the stage is strictly for women. He feels that his is the traditional view and that it was always meant to be that way. In fact, he said that men on stage with BD performers leads to behavioral license that is utterly decadent. Too bad I have lost touch with this friend as he has moved from the area. But I wonder what his response to the video would be -- most likely he would say, "told you so!"

 

[Mosaic]

All I can say about this and the Sadie thread is - If S & K's ears aren't burning and belching flames by now, nothing is going to cause them to pause/stop them from continuing down the path they have decided to take.

So all we can do is be the best we can be, and show the GP what is BD. As unfortunate as it is, we can't change that which doesn't want to be changed.

I don't like at all what S&K are doing, it is nasty & just horrible, whether it is BD or whatever such sheenanigans is degrading to themselves and all honest to god dancers as well as most dance forms that they portray in their performances.

I wonder would they ever be accepted/forgiven if they apologised & returned to portraying BD as it should be or stopped dancing altogether. It seems to me that in all likelihood they wouldn't be. They have been cast out of the pond as pirhanas and all the other fish just don't want them back no matter what. But having said that, I also don't see them changing because the greater pond demands it, they will do as they will, methinks they somehow enjoy the notoriety.
~Mosaic

 

[Aniseteph]

I note that nobody addressed a point I raised above re a BD performer allowing male audience members on stage with her. Some of you may recall a posting I made a long time ago about an Iranian friend of mine: he strenuously said that BD is for women - that he is hesitant to allow men to attend such performances and that the stage is strictly for women. He feels that his is the traditional view and that it was always meant to be that way. In fact, he said that men on stage with BD performers leads to behavioral license that is utterly decadent. Too bad I have lost touch with this friend as he has moved from the area. But I wonder what his response to the video would be -- most likely he would say, "told you so!"

I've seen clips of dancers in the ME dancing with men - either as part of the act (Asmahan?) or just getting audience members up dancing. It doesn't have to be lewd any more than the rest of the performance does, and a skilled entertainer controls the situation and does not turn it into a private dancer moment.

In fact to me the idea that men have to be excluded makes belly dance seem MORE of a naughty taboo, too rude for men to see what goes on behind the harem curtain :shok: :naghty:. Whereas if it's just a stage version of what men, women and kids do at parties, what's the big deal?