Sadie and Kaya in an "erotic" music video....

[lizaj]

Hmm, I might need a tee shirt, too. "Exaggeration" is the word that comes to mind- seems like an awful lot of chest tossing and boob bopping goes on.

added to the cheesy "envelope/harem peepshow " veil trick and the stomach churning undulations....
I will give them good timing..otherwise it's all about trying too hard and making sure everyone knows it.
Not the essense of the belly dance I know and love.

 

[Sita]

and yet there's no questioning their influence and popularity on the mainstream bellydance scene, because lets face it, their fanbase is made up of more than just people who enjoy only the sexually provocative aspect of their act. They've made a name for themselves in the bd industry on more than just sex appeal alone. What is it that they're providing or doing that attracts such an audience? is their act pointing to a problem in the way the greater community looks and relates to the dance form?

Sita

 

[da Sage]

and yet there's no questioning their influence and popularity on the mainstream bellydance scene, because lets face it, their fanbase is made up of more than just people who enjoy only the sexually provocative aspect of their act. They've made a name for themselves in the bd industry on more than just sex appeal alone. What is it that they're providing or doing that attracts such an audience? is their act pointing to a problem in the way the greater community looks and relates to the dance form?

Sita

Well, they're excellent technicians, and by all accounts good teachers, too. I for one wouldn't boycott them just because of their shenanigans, but it's not like I've sent any $$ their way yet, either.:think:

 

[lizaj]

and yet there's no questioning their influence and popularity on the mainstream bellydance scene, because lets face it, their fanbase is made up of more than just people who enjoy only the sexually provocative aspect of their act. They've made a name for themselves in the bd industry on more than just sex appeal alone. What is it that they're providing or doing that attracts such an audience? is their act pointing to a problem in the way the greater community looks and relates to the dance form?

Sita

Last night watching a film of Fifi from the 1980s made me realise why I would never want to learn form Kaya and Sadie. They just don't do it! Simple as that. Even if I were young and slender (with t*ts tacked on)I would not be looking West for tuition. I have had some excellent tuition from Americans..I rate Ava Fleming highly as teacher. But I am sorry to disagree,Sita I can see no other attraction than wanting to be sexee like Sadie. I find the "technique" terribly overplayed and nothing whatsoever to do with a reflection of any "age" of Egytian bellydance from the ladylike grace of the Goden Age (with a dollop of cheek and cheese along the way) to modern athlectic Randa.
It's that hard edge. I posted that video of them belly dancing (and got accused of being a troll for my pains..on Bhuz) to try tease out something I relate to and apart from pretty good timing in their duet I find it all so unlike anything I admire in belly dancing. I thank my lucky stars that Kharis introduced me to the likes of Fifi,Mona.Azza and Soheir and that Emma (here on OD) is such a Soheir fan. I was untouched by whatever was going on in the USA I suppose(oh except for Shareen El Safy..:clap and I imagine that new and younger dancers are having the pleasure of visiting native dancers at festivals and belly danc eholidays and travelling to Egypt and Turkey.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

and yet there's no questioning their influence and popularity on the mainstream bellydance scene, because lets face it, their fanbase is made up of more than just people who enjoy only the sexually provocative aspect of their act. They've made a name for themselves in the bd industry on more than just sex appeal alone. What is it that they're providing or doing that attracts such an audience? is their act pointing to a problem in the way the greater community looks and relates to the dance form?

Sita

I think you have got that exactly right..it is pointing to a big problem in the way people view and percieve 'belly dance'.

To be frank, unless you are 'into' this dance beyond the superficial, the beauty and technical expertise will always win over.

We know there is a zillion ways to approach this dance and of course cultural and artistic intregrity is always bottom of the heap.

Kaya and Sadie are on a belly dance pedestal both in terms of fame, beauty and technical ability.. the sum total of the 'belly dance experinece' in the minds of many people.

I was teaching a workshop in the next room to Sadie. My room was about half the size of her but still pretty full. Her really large room was also full of women of all shapes and sizes all wanting two hours of the Sadie experience.

Within half an hour people kept drifting into my workshop til we were packed like sardines. What she did was unobtainable for most people and not many could keep up.

As a person, I found her a sweet but incredibly shy. She was very casual in jeans and trainers, she certainly did not walk around saying 'look at me how sexy I am'... there were one or two other dancers walking around in lycra mini skirts, fur coats and thigh boots.

 

[Sita]

Last night watching a film of Fifi from the 1980s made me realise why I would never want to learn form Kaya and Sadie. They just don't do it! Simple as that. Even if I were young and slender (with t*ts tacked on)I would not be looking West for tuition. I have had some excellent tuition from Americans..I rate Ava Fleming highly as teacher. But I am sorry to disagree,Sita I can see no other attraction than wanting to be sexee like Sadie. I find the "technique" terribly overplayed and nothing whatsoever to do with a reflection of any "age" of Egytian bellydance from the ladylike grace of the Goden Age (with a dollop of cheek and cheese along the way) to modern athlectic Randa.
It's that hard edge. I posted that video of them belly dancing (and got accused of being a troll for my pains..on Bhuz) to try tease out something I relate to and apart from pretty good timing in their duet I find it all so unlike anything I admire in belly dancing. I thank my lucky stars that Kharis introduced me to the likes of Fifi,Mona.Azza and Soheir and that Emma (here on OD) is such a Soheir fan. I was untouched by whatever was going on in the USA I suppose(oh except for Shareen El Safy..:clap and I imagine that new and younger dancers are having the pleasure of visiting native dancers at festivals and belly danc eholidays and travelling to Egypt and Turkey.

Dear lizaj
I completely agree with you . I didn't mean that I see something 'attractive' in their styles, in fact like you my response is the opposite. I don't see any of the fluidity and grace I expect to see in bellydance, they are too harsh for me in style. However they are popular and that's what I'm questioning, what is it about their style that attracts so many, when for others it is the antithesis of what they look for in the dance?
I don't know Ava Fleming very well.. what is her style like?

da Sage mentioned they are great teachers, in some ways I can understand that, as a good teacher is worth their weight in gold. I'm not sure I agree or the technician aspect, or maybe I do but look at them being too overly technical.. I'm not sure:think:

Sita

 

[Sita]

I think you have got that exactly right..it is pointing to a big problem in the way people view and percieve 'belly dance'.

To be frank, unless you are 'into' this dance beyond the superficial, the beauty and technical expertise will always win over.

We know there is a zillion ways to approach this dance and of course cultural and artistic intregrity is always bottom of the heap.

Kaya and Sadie are on a belly dance pedestal both in terms of fame, beauty and technical ability.. the sum total of the 'belly dance experinece' in the minds of many people.

I was teaching a workshop in the next room to Sadie. My room was about half the size of her but still pretty full. Her really large room was also full of women of all shapes and sizes all wanting two hours of the Sadie experience.

Within half an hour people kept drifting into my workshop til we were packed like sardines. What she did was unobtainable for most people and not many could keep up.

As a person, I found her a sweet but incredibly shy. She was very casual in jeans and trainers, she certainly did not walk around saying 'look at me how sexy I am'... there were one or two other dancers walking around in lycra mini skirts, fur coats and thigh boots.

I think you're right and that's what it is: 'the Sadie experience'. They appear to offer a complete package of what people perceive the dance to be... they are an 'event' more than a 'performance'.
Also maybe it is a cultural thing, Western dance does appear to put more importance on technique so it's understandable that those ideas remain in people's heads when they assess another dance. Also the body popping and sharp accents do remind me of hiphop moves at times, perhaps that works in their favour as well..:think:

Sita

 

[Ariadne]

I don't know Ava Fleming very well.. what is her style like?

I am going to admit something that may embarrass me. I adore Ava Flemings teaching. She breaks down the movements and technique in ways that someone anal like me can totally grasp. However... I have yet to see a video of her perform that I have liked. It's all technique and no passion.

Sadie and Kaya to me have quite deliberately branded themselves, and successfully marketed themselves, to the modern pop market. It's not about passion or emotion but impressing, being stars, and of course being sexy. I think they know exactly what they are doing from beginning to end. Since I am no longer 16, don't care for most hip hop videos, think to much pop culture treats girls like whores and convinces them to dress like it, and I don't approve, I am obviously not their target audience.

 

[Aniseteph]

But who ARE their target audience? I don't suppose they've managed to tap into the general public's imagination in the way the BDSS were intended to do.

Do they have a dancer following who think it's all about super hard technique and looking hot? I don't know what to think about that, especially for the hobbyists who won't ever manage the technical side or looking that way.

Whereas in Egyptian style there's a vibe and a feeling behind it that I CAN aspire to.

 

[lizaj]

The target audience of those videos is pre and early teens which is why we have a government initiative here in the UK to try to nagte the pressures young girls are being put under regarding sexual activity nd acceptance of male violence. There's a series of infor. adverts at present being aired.
I would have a problem with Kaya and Sadie if what they were doing was only to be seen by adult audiences who can take it with a large ton of salt and they didn't call themselves belly dancers. Even so that harem sex-slave hocum is also an offensive and outdated stereotype that am surprised they haven't worked out for themselves. So so wrong on many counts.

The ad:


YouTube - Abuse in Relationships: Can You See It?

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

But who ARE their target audience? I don't suppose they've managed to tap into the general public's imagination in the way the BDSS were intended to do.

Do they have a dancer following who think it's all about super hard technique and looking hot? I don't know what to think about that, especially for the hobbyists who won't ever manage the technical side or looking that way.

Their audience? Same as Suhaila's -- basically the people who prefer an athletic approach to dance.

Later on I'm going to start a new thread on the "athletic aesthetic" in bellydance and why it's a bad thing. I had some articles I want to reference, but they're in the increasingly unbalanced piles of papers on my desk.

 

[da Sage]

The target audience of those videos is pre and early teens which is why we have a government initiative here in the UK to try to nagte the pressures young girls are being put under regarding sexual activity nd acceptance of male violence. There's a series of infor. adverts at present being aired.
I would have a problem with Kaya and Sadie if what they were doing was only to be seen by adult audiences who can take it with a large ton of salt and they didn't call themselves belly dancers. Even so that harem sex-slave hocum is also an offensive and outdated stereotype that am surprised they haven't worked out for themselves. So so wrong on many counts.

The ad:


YouTube - Abuse in Relationships: Can You See It?

Hello lizaj,

I was just writing you a private message, but decided to go ahead and post here instead, as what I was writing has to do with bellydance also.

I think part of what bothers me about Sadie and Kaya's dance is that ON FILM most of their performances seem without emotional depth. It's the combination of being highly presentationally sexy *and* performing at such a high level technically that bothers me. This approach reminds me of Cosmo's relationship articles that have cover articles about how to give your boyfriend a blow-job "like an expert" and dress super-sexy - but there's no cover articles about whether he's good enough to stick with, or whether you even need a boyfriend (or random 1 night stands). This "pleasing is the priority" mindset is what has girls dressing sexy, and putting up with boys that are mean to them. My problem with what I've seen is that 95% of the performances I've seen from S&K don't seem to show the dancers' happiness, or their internal sensuality. And those two things are at least half of what this dance is about. It's a "being" dance, not a "doing" dance. Does that make sense?

A friend of mine has seen Sadie dance in person, and SHE says that Sadie brings feeling to the dance. I have to take that on faith, but on Youtube, the connection to the PERSON of the dancer doesn't happen (at least not for me).

And one thing that I really reject in dance (and relationships) is the idea that one person (usually the woman) really needs to just do whatever it takes to make the other person (usually the man) happy...and that she doesn't get to have her say, that it's about hopping to it, not playing fair or taking turns or real consideration for the both people's needs and comfort levels.

For me, on a very real level, bellydance is about self-expression. Literally, the expression of the dancer's self, as accomplished in and through the movements of the dance.

Maybe it's the fault of the medium (tiny screen, not-great-YouTube-resolution). Maybe it's my flawed perception, but I don't feel like I can "see" the person-parts of Sadie and Kaya most of the time when they are dancing. And that lack of perceived person-hood is the same thing that allows bullies to abuse their families, lovers, and strangers off the street.

This is the question: Are Sadie and Kaya doing this to themselves? Or am I doing it to them - is the fault, the blindness inside of me?

 

[Shanazel]

As a person, I found her a sweet but incredibly shy. She was very casual in jeans and trainers, she certainly did not walk around saying 'look at me how sexy I am'... there were one or two other dancers walking around in lycra mini skirts, fur coats and thigh boots.

My experience with Kaya was similar. She is so darned nice- friendly, happy to see everyone, went out of her way to make encouraging remarks to people both privately and in general. Good teacher- I thoroughly enjoyed the two classes I took from her. I was not at all prepared for her performance that night. Wondered if I was turning into a fuddy duddy old lady or if the performance was really as over the top as I thought.

 

[Ariadne]

But who ARE their target audience? I don't suppose they've managed to tap into the general public's imagination in the way the BDSS were intended to do.

I think that is the key right there, I think that they are marketing themselves to the "general public". So much of this industry is marketed directly to the participants but with the exception of their teaching videos their emphasis seems to be a pubic persona that can compete with other modern performance troops. They say right on their info pages they want to compete with "Cirque du Soleil". It is a "Las Vegas" audience with an "adult" image to boot but who hasn't heard of Cirque du Soleil? If they succeed eventually you will be able to say the same about their troop Groove du Monde. If so then they will have a great deal to do with exactly how the "general public" views bellydance.

The thing is that the "Las Vegas/adult" audience may be a limited part of the populace but it is one that pays and the target audience is found everywhere. At that point their teaching videos will very much appeal to girls who, yes, want to be just like them. Just remember sex sells and it is the first and lowest common denominator of anyone looking for guaranteed money and fame as opposed to depending on sheer talent, hard work, and luck.

 

[Shanazel]

Ariadne, how cynical! True, of course- but really, really cynical.

 

[lizaj]

First of all can I say De Sage, I'm so glad the discussion has opened up to give a wider view and an experience of the two as belly dancers and teachers. It was all one-sided and it's good to read your point of view. It doesn't alter mine which isn't just about them but about the video itself and the image it presents. It's hard to shake off 25 years of teaching High school kids and watch with dismay the way they have been increasingly sexualised. My own sons had a childhood and then a very normal sexual journey -( a trail of relationships, successful and otherwise and far more freedom that either I or their father had!) before settling down.
I listened to how young girls feel pressurised into embarking on sexual relationships before they were ready, were expected to perform all kinds of sexual pleasures on their "men" against their will and now thanks to the insidious influnce of some rap, put up with being knocked around by said "men".
Then added to that two high profile belly dancers bump and grind their way into one of said music videos.
Then added to THAT it has an offensive,orientalist,racist theme
That Kaya and Sadie have chosen to sell their belly dance with that adult edge with their company and in an adult venue is fine. I do not have a problem with that. We cannot escape the fact that this dance is danced as adult entertainment. In a thread on Bhuz, I mentioned how my father had seen some very ...er...interesting shows by dancers amongst other women in down market night club (very ADULT) WW2 Cairo. Put it this way he would not let us in on the details.
But thanks to the media/internet it is very dificult to make sure that adult entertainment is not on show to children and teenagers.
I find their behaviour (Taxi cab and Kama Sutra) as tacky and demeaning and therefore I would not want to be taught by them however good they are. But then I do not belong to the "Sex in the city" generation. Poor old fashioned me I think I am just out of touch with the idea that as women we are free to behave as we wish ( I don't believe it of men either). There are consequences of promiscuity or whatever you want to call it and there are vulnerable young women out there who cannot handle what the likes of Kaya and Sadie might and are prepared to promote.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I think you're right and that's what it is: 'the Sadie experience'. They appear to offer a complete package of what people perceive the dance to be... they are an 'event' more than a 'performance'.

Yes and the other thoughts people have had about caterinmg for the GP are pretty spot on.

Also maybe it is a cultural thing, Western dance does appear to put more importance on technique so it's understandable that those ideas remain in people's heads when they assess another dance. Also the body popping and sharp accents do remind me of hiphop moves at times, perhaps that works in their favour as well..:think:

Sita

Egyptian dance as presented in Egypt is not very exciting to many people in the West...including many of those who have adopted the title of 'belly dancer'.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I'm just really surprised by the people who jump to defend this video as an example of "women's empowerment." Including Delilah Flynn, who I would have thought, being such a strong feminist, would see through that "argument" as the BS it is.

 

[maria_harlequin]

I'm just really surprised by the people who jump to defend this video as an example of "women's empowerment." Including Delilah Flynn, who I would have thought, being such a strong feminist, would see through that "argument" as the BS it is.

Sigh...wonder how anyone can see empowerment in this...

 

[Ariadne]

Delilah's comments didn't really surprise me seeing that she has written articles on how the sexiness has been taken out of bellydance and it needs to be put back in.

Ariadne, how cynical! True, of course- but really, really cynical.

:think: Really? I didn't think I was being cynical just factual. It's the same reason so many R rated movies are made. G movies that do well make ten times the money but the R movies are pretty much guaranteed a minimum return. The audience is much smaller but it's consistent and it pays.

I also see the video to be another reflection of that. Music videos like that are not rated for youth, "technically" their target market is college age and qualify as adults. Now we both know that they aren't restricted to that and are marketed in such a way that it hits the teen market too. They know it too and just like how the cigarette companies used to use cartoons in their ads but claimed that they really weren't marketing to children if quizzed the people who make the music videos just claim that "it's not rated for them, it's not our fault if they happen to see it." They really don't care and do it for the same reason the cigarette companies did, if they can get you into their music before you're 18 they are pretty much guaranteed a fan for the rest of your life.

Ethical, no, but it isn't about ethics it's about profit and "branding" yourself in a way that guarantees a money making potential for as long as possible.


lizaj, I don't think you are "old fashioned" just aware and educated on the subject. Most youth I have talked to aren't unless they get it at home.


My concern in all this is whether or not there is anything else marketed to the "general public" to counter the image they are cultivating? I know all about the BDSS but without something more I doubt it will be enough nor am I sure I really want them to be the sole face of this dance. I would really love to see something more traditional to round things out.