Burst my depression bubble please

[lizaj]

YouTube - Turkish Bellydance.avi


This dancer's vid was linked on Facebook ( well there was nowhere else to go) and (understandably) came in for criticism. I'm sad to say this made me start thinking about one's value to the dance community as you age. I know this dancer has been around for some time and I've been familiar with her name as a dancer and performer ever since I started dancing in 1998. I have to say I agree with her detractors though in the past I have defended dancers of another age in UK dancing. People danced with the knowledge and the training they could access back in the 1980s and even 1990s. but I have to say looking at her website she makes very grand claims as to teaching advanced and very varied classes. This is what young dancers on Facebook were shocked at. I think it such a shame that dancers lay themselves open to criticsm by making such claims and therefore feel less inclined to defend them.
Soooo how important is it to move on with training and to move out when the time is right. I continue to be inspired by "expert" dancers in workshops and performance and believe I still have something to offer as a teacher and a performer.So I hope the penny will drop when I'm not.
I was also saddened to read a (maybe justified) criticism of the attitude of many UK students who don't want to be critiqued or who just want to have fun. Classes won't operate without the "just a giggle" brigade unless teachers are content to coach very small groups..let's face it so how do we clamber out of this situation in the UK where we are bogged down by fun and fitness and does it happen elsewhere.
I was sorry that the poster who pointed out our failings did not balance it by saying how good some of our dancers are..sad to say it rather gave me ( and I have no doubt) the hundreds of dancers from other countries reading her comment that the UK is a belly dance desert. that's not the impression I get when I attend JoY..there are ladies of all ages (no gents yet)who are deadly earnest about improvong their bellydance technique and knowledge of the styles. Although I have always been dubious of competition, I saw its' worth at JoY with young dancers (in particular) raising their game.
So it's a future that's brighter I believe for this dance in the Uk and as I see promise and pleasure in students, I'm hanging onto being of some value and not the butt of younger dancers' ire and mirth.

I do feel like saying I've also seen some not so marvellous dancing from younger dancers claiming to be teachers on Youtube..Hey ho.
Rant and bleat over.ray:

 

[Gia al Qamar]

I didn't read all the comments associated with the video...so maybe I missed it...but the general concensus was that she's...well...how do I put this nicely? Not even a little bit a belly dancer.
Nothing at ALL to do with her age...she's grossly undertrained and is basically meandering the stage in a costume that's inappropriate for her age (the length of her wig on her is ridiculous).
Part of being a professional is knowing what costumes are appropriate for the occasion as well as for your overall look...yes?
I am fortunate to live in the NY metro area where our vintage dancers are worshipped and still fill the seats at shows and the floor at workshops...
If this gal's been performing and teaching for 30 years and making some $ at it, she should count herself quite fortunate...and her bless her poor students.

 

[lizaj]

I didn't read all the comments associated with the video...so maybe I missed it...but the general concensus was that she's...well...how do I put this nicely? Not even a little bit a belly dancer.
Nothing at ALL to do with her age...she's grossly undertrained and is basically meandering the stage in a costume that's inappropriate for her age (the length of her wig on her is ridiculous).
Part of being a professional is knowing what costumes are appropriate for the occasion as well as for your overall look...yes?
I am fortunate to live in the NY metro area where our vintage dancers are worshipped and still fill the seats at shows and the floor at workshops...
If this gal's been performing and teaching for 30 years and making some $ at it, she should count herself quite fortunate...and her bless her poor students.

Yes that's what I prefer to think..that age has little to do with it but what on earth possesses her not recognise her failings and why did a commentry need to point to our failings in the UK?:think:
That's what really depressed me..that she should be indicative of dancers who have been around a bit and with dancers in the Uk ( actually she isn't from the Uk but there ya go)
I know dancers up on that stage at JoY who had long passed 40 and were stunning or am I not connecting. Equally I saw youth and promise.

 

[bellyfester]

Liz,
I hope you are not comparing yourself to the youtube 'dancer' in any way!
:shok:

I will write more after I pick my self up off the floor.

Where is this commentary btw?

 

[lizaj]

Liz,
I hope you are not comparing yourself to the youtube 'dancer' in any way!
:shok:

I will write more after I pick my self up off the floor.

Where is this commentary btw?

facebook..one of my contacts had posted it and it genrated a lot of comment. What also depressed me was a teacher now resident here in the UK who had very little good to say about our scene.
I agree there is a some way to go but I think that because we are more inclusive we do get a lot of dancers and teachers (probably) who settle for and cater still for the fantasy/fun brigade. At times I wonder how harmful/harmless this is.
maybe the fact we are not as competative as the South American and Russian dancers she cites as being of a much higher standard. Maybe we do need an attitude kick but I'm not so sure when I think of some of those dancers we saw at JoY...young in the comp and older on the stage..rambling again. Anyway the dancer in the vid..it's interesting to read her history.

 

[Mosaic]

OMG! I am just putting my eyes back in my head - honestly this lady really has no right to be teaching, If I hadn't read this post first and came across that video I would've thought she was an absolute NEW beginner. The veil work ( limp rag work) and her arms:shok:! I really have no words for any of it.

I fear for her students, she is a huge risk! I am really embarrassed for her, and I don't blame people commenting as they have. This is one person who should never put herself on youtube - ever!
~Mosaic

 

[Sita]

facebook..one of my contacts had posted it and it genrated a lot of comment. What also depressed me was a teacher now resident here in the UK who had very little good to say about our scene.
I agree there is a some way to go but I think that because we are more inclusive we do get a lot of dancers and teachers (probably) who settle for and cater still for the fantasy/fun brigade. At times I wonder how harmful/harmless this is.
maybe the fact we are not as competative as the South American and Russian dancers she cites as being of a much higher standard. Maybe we do need an attitude kick but I'm not so sure when I think of some of those dancers we saw at JoY...young in the comp and older on the stage..rambling again. Anyway the dancer in the vid..it's interesting to read her history.

I've got to be honest I don't really get the woman's comment. I'll be the first to admit that there are a lot of dancers in Britain who perform professionally, yet do not meet the standards required for that level of dancing. At the same time we have some fantastic dancers, I mean seriously there are some diamonds who have wowed me. I however fail too see how someone can truly judge a country's quality of dance without going round to every dance class that exists here. It's gonna depend on who and where you've been and holding up a country to Russian or South American standards does surprise me.... mainly because that is not the style that this country appears to emulate, or be inspired by. I'm also under the impression that the bellydance scenes in both countries are very different, as you said the competitiveness is really not a part of the UK BD scene. But say we did emulate that competitiveness where does a extremely amazing UK bd go from there...? abroad? it's hard enough to get professional work is you're a classically trained contemp or ballet dancer let alone bd. just think that such a judgement needs to consider a range of issues and place things in proportion before made.
But that is my opinion only.
Sita

 

[Mosaic]

I agree with you Sita, you cannot judge a country by one person. It is this single person that I commented on, I am sure Australia, USA and many other countries have some dance teachers that would leave us all gasping for air.

I don't know how old she is, (Valerie Larkin), and I wonder if when she was younger if she was much better, maybe she has severe arthritis now? or has become slow and very stiff who knows, that wouldn't help her dancing, but even so I would think you would retain some fluidity after so many years of dancing. I was quite surprised to read on her website she has danced in Egypt etc, does anyone know if she did? If she has always danced like that surely she would have been laughed off stage.

I also think ( just my opinion) that floor work as you get older is not very dignified especially when it is not at all gracefully and appears like you just fell, stumbled onto the floor. Mind you I am not big on floor work at anytime young or old.

I actually feel sorry and embarrassed for her, as she obviously believes she is an excellent dancer and one hates to see another hurt by comments such as is seen on youtube.
~Mosaic

 

[Afrit]

Age is not the issue. The problem is she cannot dance - not just not "belly dance" - but not dance at all (unless this is Irish Step Dance fusion with a rigid body ) How does she have the cheek to make the claims on her site is beyond me.

 

[nightdancer]

I too am wondering what her physical ailments are. No one who has been in the dance arena for 30 years moves like that unless there are some physical issues, ranging from arthritis to a stroke to MS to Parkinsons.

 

[onela]

Maybe those who can't teach? When I was a kid, we have a guest ballet teacher, an older (Russian?) gentleman who walked with a cane. He sure couldn't dance anymore by the time he taught us, but we learned a lot from him. Maybe she's a brilliant choreographer and is amazing at corrections or something. I dunno, that's my stab in the dark at it. If you go on her website, there's one photo on the main page that looks like she's a bit younger and she looks more graceful in it.

 

[Aniseteph]

I found this: Work, but not as you know it - Jobs & Careers, Lifestyle - Independent.ie (scroll down).

Maybe she is a good teacher, but her performances are way off. If you are teaching you should be able to assess your students objectively, and so have some sort of clue about your own abilities. Sticking these on YouTube is an error of judgement IMO - it's not done her or the image of belly dance any good.

"Just for fun" students keep the whole scene going and probably are what pays for most of the UK-based professionals' fancy costumes. Don't bite the hand that feeds you :naghty:. But "just for fun" teachers - :think: - not so sure they do belly dance any favours. IMO you owe it to your students to keep learning, and if you don't you should be clear on what you are and are not teaching.

...holding up a country to Russian or South American standards does surprise me.... mainly because that is not the style that this country appears to emulate, or be inspired by.

Hear hear. Although that's the belly dance scene - I don't know what the general public want. Glitzy proptasticness and tricks in a slinky exotic costume probably ticks more boxes than Egyptian-style subtlety. I daresay if enough of these teachers get established and get involved with the workshop/event scene they will put their twist on it. (and I reserve the right to resent it just like the belly burlesque thing, so :tongue

I'm also under the impression that the bellydance scenes in both countries are very different, as you said the competitiveness is really not a part of the UK BD scene. But say we did emulate that competitiveness where does a extremely amazing UK bd go from there...?

Er... a) does competitive/business-minded teachers teacher training course, b) starts teaching and feeds off the pool of funsters, c) sets troupe/agency/school d) competes with teacher for work/students... belly dance will eat itself

 

[Sita]

Quote:
I'm also under the impression that the bellydance scenes in both countries are very different, as you said the competitiveness is really not a part of the UK BD scene. But say we did emulate that competitiveness where does a extremely amazing UK bd go from there...?

Er... a) does competitive/business-minded teachers teacher training course, b) starts teaching and feeds off the pool of funsters, c) sets troupe/agency/school d) competes with teacher for work/students... belly dance will eat itself
Er... a) does competitive/business-minded teachers teacher training course, b) starts teaching and feeds off the pool of funsters, c) sets troupe/agency/school d) competes with teacher for work/students... belly dance will eat itself

Sorry I wanted to clarify exactly what I meant. I agree with you completely but my meaning was a little different. In the comparison with Latin American/ Russian dancers, particulary the latter, I note a degree of glamour... not 'fame' but maybe more...widespread recognition (I'm thinking of Maria Shashkova for example who appears on a tv show, the competitions we see that are videoed and take place on an ice rink). That kind of recognition and possibilty does not yet exist in this country.. at least not in the same way. If bellydance appears on tv it's on a random talent show or as a bit of giggly/silly fun on a chat show. So when I meant where does an amazing UK bd go.. I'm talking in terms of professional arena tours like the BD Superstars, TV appearances etc. and these don't exist here at the moment. Even an in demand teacher who sets up her own company and school struggles for proper recognition and even finacially at times, much more than other dance groups because bellydance does not appear to attract the funding other dances get.

Basically my point is that you can't expect us to have the same level of competiveness as another country, without the same culture and recognition of the dance form to fuel that competiveness.. admittedly I should prolly have just said that and cut the rambling bit lol:lol:

Just want to clarify.
Sita

 

[Marya]

Liz,

There is a similar situation where I live. I live in a more rural area with a few bigger towns but there is no real market for B dancers other than the Belly dance community. Most of the dancers are pretty much like the lady in the video. There are a few who are slightly better or even good but most are either long time hobby dancers or new beginners with all the problems of beginners.

Aisha Azar is really the only one out where I live who can produce a professional show. She loves to introduce new talent but she is picky. Everybody else produces Haflas where anyone at any level can dance.

There is also seems to be a pathological fear of dancing solo. Many times I am one of two or three dancers that will solo. Some people seem to admire me just for the fact I dance solo.

Marya

 

[Farasha Hanem]

Oh...oh, dear. I don't know who I feel sorry for most, her, or her students/potential students. This video makes me want to cry.

 

[adiemus]

For a while, just reading this thread, I wondered if we were collectively doing a bit of dancer-bashing. After watching just the first few seconds, I switched it off, I couldn't watch any more. Enough said I think

, I just felt sick.

 

[Shanazel]

The part of the video I watched made me feel both sad and compassionate: despite her all encompassing wig, pretty bedlah, and publicity, she obviously is clueless about her shortcomings as a dancer.

I am fifty-five and have arthritis. There are things I cannot do now that I could do beautifully even a handful of years ago. That does not mean I cannot teach others to do those things and it doesn't mean I've had to quit dancing all together. A'isha Azar is a couple of years older than I am, has her own share of physical challenges, and by all acounts can still blow an audience clear out of the theatre with a performance.

The inadequacies of this performance have nothing to do with age, country of origin, or even physical ailments- she is simply an undertrained individual awkwardly imitating belly dance without any stage presence whatsoever.

 

[Emma_Williams]

When I just read the thread in work without seeing the clip I thought this was a thread of old dancers/teachers versus young ones etc but then I got home and watched the clip....OH MY GAWD!! The woman cannot dance not just not belly dance but cannot dance full stop. I would have no problem with her dance ability if she danced for fun, pleasure, enjoyment and to express herself. However, to class yourself as a professional and teacher of advanced students is just wrong and naughty. I would be horrified to get excited and sign up to a new class to find she was my teacher.
What I also question is who goes to her?? You do not need to have any dance experience to see that lady cannot dance for toffee!!

I have to confess I was always a fan of the younger dancers and girls of my age...just because I oculd relate more I suppose but then I experienced Casino El Layl and JOY and oh my gosh....all the best dancers were 40+...that makes me excited because as a 26 year old I know my best years in this dance are to come. This is why I have the greatest respect for older dancers and teachers because yes whilst a young dancer brings some experience, energy and passion the older dancers bring even more experience, even more passion and just as much energy.

This dance in the UK is certainly not a desert. I am certainly not thirsty....hungry yes to learn more but my thirst is nicely quenched by the numerous amounts of fantastic professional dancers, shows, top class teachers and workshops and weekends.

I think US blighty girls do take it just as serious. In Cairo we have had Uk girls flying the flag like Lorna, Yasmina, Sara...

Hmpf!! Got me started on a rant now hehe

 

[lizaj]

I take the points about the comparison between countries. I might be wrong but most of the dancers I see from Russia and South America are very much playing the glamour card and the best of them have gone for good technique of course but there are also a lot of tricks on show. I 'll dig out YT's to illustrate. Here and I am sure in the US and other parts of Euope and Australasia, many teachers here have promoted the all-inclusive aspect. Competition has come late. And I do think they will mainly benefit those younger dancers. I also think that here we have become more interested in becoming good Egyptian/Turkish bellydancers and not generic glamour girl belly dancers. At least that is true amongst the clutch of talented young and not so young dancers I know.

I would never deny the right of the like of the subject of the video to enjoy her dance but she promotes herself as a dancer who has been dancing in international and advanced teacher status for over 20 years She appears to have been a leading light in Irish bellydance for a long time and I certainly remmber seeing her website back on the late 90s. I am also not sure that the experience necessarily reflects on the UK of the 21st century and I was irritated to read the criticism of the approach. When all is said and done we take what we need from this dance (rightly or wrongly) and there are women who might make strong and worthy dancers but they are not marketable nor are they in classes where they are encouraged to go beyond the twice-yealry hafla. They also are not the slim,glamorous dancers who enter these huge competitions in Russia or the Far East. But we do in some areas foster the dancer who can take the stage, there are agancies who encourage professionalism amongst hired by private and corporate clients.

 

[lizaj]

For a while, just reading this thread, I wondered if we were collectively doing a bit of dancer-bashing. After watching just the first few seconds, I switched it off, I couldn't watch any more. Enough said I think

, I just felt sick.

No it's a wider issue. Of course the dancer is being slated but after this was shown on Facebook I was dismayed by the way she was bashed but also by the grand claims on her website. I was also irritated by a one-sided bahing of the Uk scene. I grant we have a long way to go but we have gems amongst both our established dancers and rising stars. We have a care for standards, by no means universal but growing. We have a large number of dancers interested in authenticy and respect for the dance and I found the comments unfair.