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  1. #11
    Junior Member antares's Avatar
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    Big Grin

    Hi there,
    @ Tutankhamun:
    I've really given a lot of thinking before going for it. Considering surgery is being the last step in a big row of things i've tried. It would be long to name them all. I have excercised consistently and eaten very "clean". I went twice a week to the gym and exercised the rest of the week at home with work out DVD's. I used mainly The Firm DVD's. This is an Award winning exercise program that includes (steps) aerobics, free weights exercising (with dumbells) and a lot more.
    Obviuosly, so much exercising and healthy eating had to give results. I lost a lot of weight, but could never return to how i was before having children. The last 5 kilograms JUST never went off, no matter what i tried. At one point i got to do 300 sit ups a day. No kidding. I swear it! Of course, i started doing 25 and increasing the amount every few weeks. I did cardio to burn fat, etc. I got to kind of have an "upper six pack" because of so much "clean eating" cardio and different kinds of sit ups. But that stubborn bump in the middle of my belly just refused to go away. I must say that i had a very fit condition in that time and a gorgeous complexion (of course, from al that exercising and healthy eating) But the bump was still there. It was even more noticeable because my upper torso was fitter and leaner! In fact i lost fat in all the unwanted places too, for instance my face and my breasts. You can't spot-reduce. It happens that it is very difficult to get rid of unwanted fat in certain areas of your body.

    Later on i "discovered" bellydance and since then, i find aerobics a bit less fun to do. But bellydancing is also a way of "working out" , isn't it ?

    I did all that exercising and healthy eating because i like to be fit and being in good shape, not because i wanted to be thin. I'm not naturally thin. I have that sort of pear-shaped latina body, if you know what i mean. I've always had curves . I also wanted to try to flatten my belly without having surgery. The fact is that you also deal with diastasis (a separation of the two halves of the rectus abdominis muscle) Diastasis is often responsable for still looking pregnant when you are not. The belly just not flattens, no matter how many sit ups you do. In fact sit ups can make it worse. Diastasis is corrected in a tummy tuck, which is why you finally get a more naturally looking belly, and not a belly like you are still pregnant and with that "crazy" bump in the middle!

    In short, getting rid of stretch marks is not what i want. My strecht marks are -thank goodness- hardly noticeable. It's just that bump and "apron" what i want to get rid of .

    Tumescent Tummy Tuck Abdominoplasty You can see here what i mean by the "bump" all those "before" bellies look like mine!

    @ farasha: I can really understand that you feel the urge to go for surgery! Of course, we all know that real beauty is inside, and you get strecht marks/ bump in your belly, etc..... but you get also beautiful, loving children, etc. The fact is that it is difficult to accept all those changes. We are human too :-) I just went for it if i was you.
    Last edited by antares; 07-07-2009 at 12:23 PM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angie View Post
    I'm considering getting one due to the loose skin/excessive stretch marks from having babies. My question is, how will this effect me as a belly dancer? Anyone know? Thanks!
    Angie
    Belly Dancing requires a fine tone of muscles and is influenced by the relationship of the overlying tissues. Loose skin and stomach tissues can make for a bizarre look on any motion.

    I just completed a video documentary of the of Tummy Tuck and Belly Dancing. This was a fortuitous event.

    I document my patients' problems and the effects of how the tissues move after surgery. Videos are much better than still pictures to demonstrate the problem and effectiveness of the solution. I then added years ago recording the emotional impact of the problem and surgical solution.

    During my normal documentation, I noticed that my patient was trying out her new stomach muscles very early on in her healing. You can see that in the first video component at 2 weeks. At later sections (1 month and 3 months after surgery) I incorporated questions on her belly dancing progress. The unfortunate issue was that by not knowing that she had a serious hobby of belly dancing before, I had not known to document the distorted motions that her loose skin and muscles while dancing. She had avoided videos herself before the surgery because of her dislike of what it looked like. The belly roll evolution from right after surgery to 3 months is the only such video of the healing after tummy tuck surgery in a belly dancer that I know of.

    She did her first solo dance at 3 1/2 months after surgery and sent me the video. Unfortunately, that video shows her costume and face and she has not given me permission to link to it. The expressions on her face were a great pleasure to watch.

    Following the above link you can find details about her original complain for loose tissues after pregnancy and weight loss with the before and after pictures. There are her other links to videos of her experiences after surgery. The 6 day after surgery video was done with her compression garment for comfort issues.
    Hope this helps,

    Michael Bermant, MD
    Last edited by DrBermant; 08-26-2010 at 02:02 AM.

  3. #13
    Member Chani's Avatar
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    Default Anyone know about tummy tucks?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrBermant View Post
    Belly Dancing requires a fine tone of muscles and is influenced by the relationship of the overlying tissues. Loose skin and stomach tissues can make for a bizarre look on any motion.
    Oh, what bull twang.

    Bodies, real bodies, perfectly real bodies on perfectly real people are meant to jiggle when you move. What would be bizarre would be for there to be no jiggling when one bellydanced. I am 46 years old and have had 4 pregnancies. I love the stretch marks on my breasts. I love that my tummy skin moves when I shimmy. I am a real woman and these things don't make me look bizarre when I dance but the opposite - they are part of what makes me beautiful. You are pushing an artificial version of beauty which I find irrelevant to dancing.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chani View Post
    Oh, what bull twang.

    Bodies, real bodies, perfectly real bodies on perfectly real people are meant to jiggle when you move. What would be bizarre would be for there to be no jiggling when one bellydanced. I am 46 years old and have had 4 pregnancies. I love the stretch marks on my breasts. I love that my tummy skin moves when I shimmy. I am a real woman and these things don't make me look bizarre when I dance but the opposite - they are part of what makes me beautiful. You are pushing an artificial version of beauty which I find irrelevant to dancing.
    It is certainly a fine and reasonable approach to be happy with one's body the way it is. That is a good method for those who can be content that way.

    Actually I do not push anything, but instead satisfy what my patients ask me to restore when I am able to. Some relish in scarification mutilation, some relish is the badges they earn after trauma or tumor, some love the changes they had after pregnancy or weight loss. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    The patient in that video did not agree with you but complained she had to hide herself from what she considered a deformity that she did not like. Patients do not come to me because they are content.

    Each to his / her own.

    Take some time to listen to the emotion behind the changes that I have been documenting with my sculpture. Tummy Tuck Patient Experiences. I am in the process of updating that section to include the video with the audio component. But video editing takes too much time and the process is slow.

    Hope this helps,

    Michael Bermant, MD
    Learn More About Tummy Tuck Abdominoplasty Surgery

  5. #15
    Member Chani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrBermant View Post
    It is certainly a fine and reasonable approach to be happy with one's body the way it is. That is a good method for those who can be content that way.
    It's much harder for people in our modern society to be content with their normal bodies when there are those suggesting unnecessary surgical modification is reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrBermant View Post
    Actually I do not push anything, but instead satisfy what my patients ask me to restore when I am able to.
    I disagree. You have said that you do not dance and I do not believe you are here to learn about dancing but instead to peddle your wares. Your posts reflect this. The members here aren't your patients. Why are you here if not to promote your business?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrBermant View Post
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
    And the concept of beauty is distorted when people start seeing surgical modification of normaly healthy bodies as a normal thing to do. Its because of what you do and how people like you refer to the natural as being bizarre that many people seek to change their natural beauty. To me the beauty of belly dance is in the natural unaltered form of the dancer

    Quote Originally Posted by DrBermant View Post
    The patient in that video did not agree with you but complained she had to hide herself from what she considered a deformity that she did not like. Patients do not come to me because they are content.
    I didn't watch that video. I'm here to learn about bellydance not surgery. I did however have a look at your before and after tummy tucks and was surprised to see the before shots all (aside from one) looked like normal beautiful bodies. I find it sad that these patients would take the risk of surgery and spend such huge amounts of money unnecessarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrBermant View Post
    Take some time to listen to the emotion behind the changes that I have been documenting with my sculpture. Tummy Tuck Patient Experiences. I am in the process of updating that section to include the video with the audio component. But video editing takes too much time and the process is slow.
    No thanks. Like I said. Just here for the dancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrBermant View Post
    Hope this helps,
    You have only helped to reinforce my belief that you are using this forum as a form of cheap advertising.

    I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

    Thankfully I only need to read the threads that contain information that is actually helpful to me.
    Last edited by Chani; 08-29-2010 at 06:18 AM. Reason: spelling errors

  6. #16
    V.I.P. lizaj's Avatar
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    Chani...you've said it all. When people join a belly dance forum, I'd like to think it is because they love to dance or love to watch dancers and are interested in finding out more about the dance. I can't see that the good doctor is really interested in doing more than...well what?
    I can't wholly condemn women who have such surgery..although I have an ever-expanding waistline, I shall stick with diet but then I am not a younger woman who might want to dance professionally nor was I one who was left with a belly in a poor state by childbirth.
    But I much prefer that belly dance forums such as this are places for members to discuss a variety of issues not just peddle their wares whatever that might be and that they are genuinely what they say.

  7. #17
    Member Chani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizaj View Post
    I can't wholly condemn women who have such surgery.
    Oh, yes, I am certainly not standing in judgement of adults who seek surgery for whatever reason, even if it is purely for vanities sake, and would only hope that they make informed choices for themselves considering both the risks and benefits of surgery. I myself have seriously considered a breast reduction. Fortunately, breastfeeding all of my children has blessed me with a natural recduction in breast size but I fear the good doctor would deem my breasts worthy of a lift now.

    What I had issue with was somebody posting on this forum for the purpose of promoting surgical procedures. Even those "content" to be in our natural state can have insecurities and it is sometimes a matter of just getting out there and dancing despite any lack of confidence in our appearance - in fact repeatedly putting myself out there has helped me in many ways to embrace my natural appearance in a way I hadn't before dancing.

    I think this forum is a place where insecurities might be preyed upon by a surgeon looking for bodies to "sculpt". Perhaps, instead of looking for clients here, Dr B might direct some of his patients to this forum here where they can learn about a fantastic way to improve their fitness and body image.

  8. #18
    V.I.P. lizaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chani View Post
    Oh, yes, I am certainly not standing in judgement of adults who seek surgery for whatever reason, even if it is purely for vanities sake, and would only hope that they make informed choices for themselves considering both the risks and benefits of surgery. I myself have seriously considered a breast reduction. Fortunately, breastfeeding all of my children has blessed me with a natural recduction in breast size but I fear the good doctor would deem my breasts worthy of a lift now.

    What I had issue with was somebody posting on this forum for the purpose of promoting surgical procedures. Even those "content" to be in our natural state can have insecurities and it is sometimes a matter of just getting out there and dancing despite any lack of confidence in our appearance - in fact repeatedly putting myself out there has helped me in many ways to embrace my natural appearance in a way I hadn't before dancing.

    I think this forum is a place where insecurities might be preyed upon by a surgeon looking for bodies to "sculpt". Perhaps, instead of looking for clients here, Dr B might direct some of his patients to this forum here where they can learn about a fantastic way to improve their fitness and body image.
    If Dr B is what he says he is, is the first thought that comes into my head.
    We do have a record of wind-up merchants on this forum ( s do others)
    And I fully agree with you Chani, cosmetic surgeons have their place in our society but it is not their place to play on a warped sense of body image.
    As far as I am concerned they are trained with tax payers money to put right what is seriously damaging to a person's well-being. There will be different interpretations of that, I know.
    Why one should pop up on a belly dance forum is beyond me.

  9. #19
    Premium Member Aniseteph's Avatar
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    Mega-rep to Chani.

    Belly Dancing requires a fine tone of muscles and is influenced by the relationship of the overlying tissues.
    Well yes insofar as a movement will look different on a gym-toned flat tum than something jucier, but to me that is totally missing the point of belly dance. Tell it to Fifi - the heart and soul of belly dance isn't about anatomy.

    If someone is unhappy about their body and want surgery then that's fine (although I was expecting something more, er, dramatic in the "before" on that dancer clip to be honest - had a bit of a WTF? moment).

    This is a great place to ask other dancers if they've had something done and how it affected their dancing. It might have been an interesting angle hearing from a surgeon and seeing before and afters on a skilled dancer, but now this just feels like peddling to me, especially since I looked at the website. . It feels like someone exploiting the belly dancer angle to get his name out there some more. It's all making me queasy now.

    I couldn't find a clip of a dancer talking about how surgery affected her dancing but here did you really mean the title to read "Video Expenses Tummy Tuck Surgery for Belly Dancer"?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizaj View Post
    Chani...you've said it all. When people join a belly dance forum, I'd like to think it is because they love to dance or love to watch dancers and are interested in finding out more about the dance. I can't see that the good doctor is really interested in doing more than...well what?
    I can't wholly condemn women who have such surgery..although I have an ever-expanding waistline, I shall stick with diet but then I am not a younger woman who might want to dance professionally nor was I one who was left with a belly in a poor state by childbirth.
    But I much prefer that belly dance forums such as this are places for members to discuss a variety of issues not just peddle their wares whatever that might be and that they are genuinely what they say.
    Actually, my joining this forum was for public education and to share experiences of those who used surgery to restore elements that they were not happy with. The video link is an unusual documentation of recovery of the healing process of a belly dancer's muscles. The same techniques of documentation could be used by those not interested only in doctor bashing to document their own healing after an injury or for that matter progression of technique mastering. Consider using the same methods of video standardization I developed to understand the problem I was sculpting and results I achieved, to the dancer's perfection of a particular move over time. For the years I have been looking at belly dancing videos, I have yet to see one of such design.

    Plastic Surgery is not for an "ever expanding wasteline." It is not a replacement for dieting nor losing weight. It will not stop those gaining weight. That is all part of an unrealistic hype by surgeons hungry to operate on anything that walks in a door. Plastic Surgery cannot make someone who is overweight not look overweight. That general layer of fat covering the body is unhealthy and does not permit the contour of the underlying muscles to show though. And by the way, I agree that excessive weight loss is also unhealthy. Yes, I have seen videos of those with way too much fat on their bodies dancing or performing.
    Using the same video format I have been trying to educate about, those who love a particular issue can themselves document why loose hanging tissues look great or natural while dancing. The audio can then be used to explain their emotion behind their beliefs. That is where my documentation came from and why I am on this forum.

    Beyond that there are other misconceptions I come to forums to help dispel. Tummy Tucks do not have to be painful and have a long miserable recovery. Yes, that is true for older techniques. My other passion beyond public education is to evolve techniques that are less painful with faster recovery. That is the reasoning behind the video documentation in the first place. Track where we start, what it takes to get there, and where we end up.

    But I will take that up in another thread.

    For those content with their bodies, that is fantastic. But putting down others who chose to do so is not fair. It is like a nudist complaining about how those magnificent costumes detract from the body's beauty. And no, I am not advocating video documentation of a nudist's idea of belly dancing. The concept just does not appeal to me. The difference is that for the patient I posted, her belly dancing video after surgery was her first she said she ever did. When I asked to see a before surgery video of her dancing to see how the tissue moved, she told me she was too embarrassed to record that movement. Too bad I do not have permission to share that performance to see the joy on her face no longer having to hide what she did not like. For other patients, it may not be the dancing, but what type of clothing they are able to wear or activities they feel comfortable doing. Listening to their stories of going to the beach in their first bikini enjoying no longer having to hide has the same power as the dancing experiences.

    Like type of clothing / costumes, Plastic Surgery is a tool that some chose to use and others not to do so. Everything has its place. Documentation and education have the power to help understand options, movement, emotions, successes and failures.

    And lastly, let us look at the title of this thread: anyone know about tummy tucks? In answering such questions I am bringing decades of experience of patients who have traveled from around the world asking for my sculpture. To me it makes little sense to bash someone trying to help with posting answers based on extended experience, posting real examples and real experiences and documentation.

    Hope this helps,

    Michael Bermant, M.D.
    Last edited by DrBermant; 08-30-2010 at 12:01 PM.

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