The right posture*sigh*

Farasha Hanem

New member
Believe it or not its your stomach muscles that support your lower back :) So situps is an awsome way to ensure good support and posture (not to mention fabulous abs Lol).

:)

I do the modified situps where you lift your shoulders off the ground, and use an AbFlex (which is a dinosaur in the exercise machine world, but it still works xD ). Plus, I practice a lot on belly rolls and flutters, but I think part of my problem might be the kind of work I do. I do a lot of heavy lifting, and even though I try to make sure to lift correctly, I think I tend to overdo for my size. :confused:
 

missanime

New member
What is considered the correct posture? I just assumed it was keeping your shoulders back...

Proper posture is simply aligning from head to toe. Imagine a string pulling you up from your navel and out of your head, another pulling you straight down and out your feet. Imagine them pulling you long and taught, straightening your whole body like a puppet, so that from sideways if you were to draw a line dividing your front half and your back half, the frobbt of your ears, shoulders, hips, knees, and ankles would all be aligned. Your weight should also be centered, not too forward and not too far back.

Good posture tho shouldn't just be only for when you dance tho ;) Ask any chiropractic!

Hth :)
 

missanime

New member
I do the modified situps where you lift your shoulders off the ground, and use an AbFlex (which is a dinosaur in the exercise machine world, but it still works xD ). Plus, I practice a lot on belly rolls and flutters, but I think part of my problem might be the kind of work I do. I do a lot of heavy lifting, and even though I try to make sure to lift correctly, I think I tend to overdo for my size. :confused:

Ahh ok, so yea lifting can also wreck havoc and stress out your back. When you lift anythibjg heavy, keep your knees bent so as to eleviate the stress from the lower back. Yes you might feel stupid lol, but trust me it'll help a great deal. Bellyrolls aren't quite enough either lol ;) and the situps you need are the ones where you keep your knees bent slighly (at 45° angle or less if you can) and keeping your arms either crossed in front or out to sides, working more of *both* your upper and lower tummy muscles :)

(i think the one you have only works your upper half which from the sounds of it, would also be counteractive to doing the bellyflutters. I think lol)
 

Farasha Hanem

New member
Ahh ok, so yea lifting can also wreck havoc and stress out your back. When you lift anythibjg heavy, keep your knees bent so as to eleviate the stress from the lower back. Yes you might feel stupid lol, but trust me it'll help a great deal. Bellyrolls aren't quite enough either lol ;) and the situps you need are the ones where you keep your knees bent slighly (at 45° angle or less if you can) and keeping your arms either crossed in front or out to sides, working more of *both* your upper and lower tummy muscles :)

(i think the one you have only works your upper half which from the sounds of it, would also be counteractive to doing the bellyflutters. I think lol)

Oh, okay, I'll try to do situps that way. Thank you. :)
 

adiemus

New member
I hate to disagree - however I work with a bunch of excellent physiotherapists, and musculoskeletal pain is my specialty so.... here goes!
Posture is not a static 'position' and there is no one 'correct' posture. In fact, posture refers to the positions we move from and to any movement. When people think of 'good' posture, they often do think of the 'stand up straight' and the 'think tall' posture - but that's only one position that we can adopt.
The best way of thinking about posture is that what we're looking for is a set of positions that allow us the flexibility to move in and out of the widest range of movements that we need. So, for example, when I'm working at a computer, I need to be able to reach for the phone and for the copy holder and to turn the computer on and off - so slumping makes it difficult to do these things.
In bellydance, we need to have lots of movement in our hips, lumbar spine, knees and so on - so any position that limits this range of movement will make it difficult to dance. The pelvis/hip/lumbar spine position that provides us with the greatest range of movement options is pelvis in a neutral position, feet slightly less than shoulder-width apart, knees soft, patella over mid-forefoot, lumbar spine slightly concave to the thoracic spine which is slightly convex, cervical spine slightly concave to the thoracic spine. - but in ballet, the posture is slightly different - more lifted in the mid-thoracic region (straighter), cervical spine extended, and similarly lumbar spine more flattened - and hips turned out, with knees more fully straightened. This gives that characteristic 'light' look of ballet.

To maintain whatever posture that 'works' for the movements you want to do you need two sets of muscles - one set that moves in one direction and another that moves in the opposite direction. So for back flexion (bending forward) your abdominal muscles are more active while extending (getting back up again and bending backwards) your back muscles are more active. But as well as these sets of superficial muscles you have a number of interal 'layers' of muscles - and these ones are working pretty much all the time. These are the main ones that 'core muscle training' is intended to train - but actually every time you take a step, your core muscles are working hard. Core muscle training has been pretty over-rated, and in the scientific literature I read, isn't given an awful lot of time now. It's been fashionable - but not especially effective.
The same thing applies to using special lifting techniques - these don't have any impact on preventing back pain, and don't help with recovery from back pain. I have loads of references if anyone's keen to read up on either of these topics!

I'm very relaxed about posture, special muscle group training and special lifting techniques. In the absence of evidence to show that these things actually help very much, I'm advising patients I work with to use their bodies as normally as possible, accept that posture is not going to change significantly from what you've grown up with, and when thinking of training, it's best to train by doing specific movements you want to do rather than trying to find another set of exercises that will do the trick more quickly or efficiently. We're better off to do more of what we love - dancing - and drills that help us learn the neural pathways to make those movement patterns automatic.

End of rave!
 

Kashmir

New member
Believe it or not its your stomach muscles that support your lower back :) So situps is an awsome way to ensure good support and posture (not to mention fabulous abs Lol).
1: "Stomach muscles" squeeze your stomach and help your food pass through the digessive track
2: The muscles that support you lower back are the posture muscles such as Transversalis abdominis not the Rectus abdominis which is targeted in situps.
3: Many people do situps in such a way as to not use their abs but rather their hip flexors - which is useless for postural support.
 

jahbie

New member
Thank you for this, I find it very interesting and reassuring.




I hate to disagree - however I work with a bunch of excellent physiotherapists, and musculoskeletal pain is my specialty so.... here goes!
Posture is not a static 'position' and there is no one 'correct' posture. In fact, posture refers to the positions we move from and to any movement. When people think of 'good' posture, they often do think of the 'stand up straight' and the 'think tall' posture - but that's only one position that we can adopt.
The best way of thinking about posture is that what we're looking for is a set of positions that allow us the flexibility to move in and out of the widest range of movements that we need. So, for example, when I'm working at a computer, I need to be able to reach for the phone and for the copy holder and to turn the computer on and off - so slumping makes it difficult to do these things.
In bellydance, we need to have lots of movement in our hips, lumbar spine, knees and so on - so any position that limits this range of movement will make it difficult to dance. The pelvis/hip/lumbar spine position that provides us with the greatest range of movement options is pelvis in a neutral position, feet slightly less than shoulder-width apart, knees soft, patella over mid-forefoot, lumbar spine slightly concave to the thoracic spine which is slightly convex, cervical spine slightly concave to the thoracic spine. - but in ballet, the posture is slightly different - more lifted in the mid-thoracic region (straighter), cervical spine extended, and similarly lumbar spine more flattened - and hips turned out, with knees more fully straightened. This gives that characteristic 'light' look of ballet.

To maintain whatever posture that 'works' for the movements you want to do you need two sets of muscles - one set that moves in one direction and another that moves in the opposite direction. So for back flexion (bending forward) your abdominal muscles are more active while extending (getting back up again and bending backwards) your back muscles are more active. But as well as these sets of superficial muscles you have a number of interal 'layers' of muscles - and these ones are working pretty much all the time. These are the main ones that 'core muscle training' is intended to train - but actually every time you take a step, your core muscles are working hard. Core muscle training has been pretty over-rated, and in the scientific literature I read, isn't given an awful lot of time now. It's been fashionable - but not especially effective.
The same thing applies to using special lifting techniques - these don't have any impact on preventing back pain, and don't help with recovery from back pain. I have loads of references if anyone's keen to read up on either of these topics!

I'm very relaxed about posture, special muscle group training and special lifting techniques. In the absence of evidence to show that these things actually help very much, I'm advising patients I work with to use their bodies as normally as possible, accept that posture is not going to change significantly from what you've grown up with, and when thinking of training, it's best to train by doing specific movements you want to do rather than trying to find another set of exercises that will do the trick more quickly or efficiently. We're better off to do more of what we love - dancing - and drills that help us learn the neural pathways to make those movement patterns automatic.

End of rave!
 

missanime

New member
1: "Stomach muscles" squeeze your stomach and help your food pass through the digessive track
2: The muscles that support you lower back are the posture muscles such as Transversalis abdominis not the Rectus abdominis which is targeted in situps.
3: Many people do situps in such a way as to not use their abs but rather their hip flexors - which is useless for postural support.

:) yep :) its why i told her the safest way to do them :) and yes -- of course theres more than just the tummy strength that supports lol, but its the main one. I generalize somtimes because i also assume folks got a brain and can certainly fill in the blanks on their own ;) lol

:)
 

missanime

New member
Lol well of course your posture will change as you moce lo :)

'pulling up' is just an analogy. To pull taught or otherwise indicating stiffness would obviously be harmful and I would never make such an incorrct suggestion :)

your info here is lovely and informative, yes. But - dance is FAR more than just biology or "getting fit"! ;)





I hate to disagree - however I work with a bunch of excellent physiotherapists, and musculoskeletal pain is my specialty so.... here goes!
Posture is not a static 'position' and there is no one 'correct' posture. In fact, posture refers to the positions we move from and to any movement. When people think of 'good' posture, they often do think of the 'stand up straight' and the 'think tall' posture - but that's only one position that we can adopt.
The best way of thinking about posture is that what we're looking for is a set of positions that allow us the flexibility to move in and out of the widest range of movements that we need. So, for example, when I'm working at a computer, I need to be able to reach for the phone and for the copy holder and to turn the computer on and off - so slumping makes it difficult to do these things.
In bellydance, we need to have lots of movement in our hips, lumbar spine, knees and so on - so any position that limits this range of movement will make it difficult to dance. The pelvis/hip/lumbar spine position that provides us with the greatest range of movement options is pelvis in a neutral position, feet slightly less than shoulder-width apart, knees soft, patella over mid-forefoot, lumbar spine slightly concave to the thoracic spine which is slightly convex, cervical spine slightly concave to the thoracic spine. - but in ballet, the posture is slightly different - more lifted in the mid-thoracic region (straighter), cervical spine extended, and similarly lumbar spine more flattened - and hips turned out, with knees more fully straightened. This gives that characteristic 'light' look of ballet.

To maintain whatever posture that 'works' for the movements you want to do you need two sets of muscles - one set that moves in one direction and another that moves in the opposite direction. So for back flexion (bending forward) your abdominal muscles are more active while extending (getting back up again and bending backwards) your back muscles are more active. But as well as these sets of superficial muscles you have a number of interal 'layers' of muscles - and these ones are working pretty much all the time. These are the main ones that 'core muscle training' is intended to train - but actually every time you take a step, your core muscles are working hard. Core muscle training has been pretty over-rated, and in the scientific literature I read, isn't given an awful lot of time now. It's been fashionable - but not especially effective.
The same thing applies to using special lifting techniques - these don't have any impact on preventing back pain, and don't help with recovery from back pain. I have loads of references if anyone's keen to read up on either of these topics!

I'm very relaxed about posture, special muscle group training and special lifting techniques. In the absence of evidence to show that these things actually help very much, I'm advising patients I work with to use their bodies as normally as possible, accept that posture is not going to change significantly from what you've grown up with, and when thinking of training, it's best to train by doing specific movements you want to do rather than trying to find another set of exercises that will do the trick more quickly or efficiently. We're better off to do more of what we love - dancing - and drills that help us learn the neural pathways to make those movement patterns automatic.

End of rave!
 

Yame

New member
I'm very relaxed about posture, special muscle group training and special lifting techniques. In the absence of evidence to show that these things actually help very much, I'm advising patients I work with to use their bodies as normally as possible, accept that posture is not going to change significantly from what you've grown up with, and when thinking of training, it's best to train by doing specific movements you want to do rather than trying to find another set of exercises that will do the trick more quickly or efficiently. We're better off to do more of what we love - dancing - and drills that help us learn the neural pathways to make those movement patterns automatic.

I do think that posture can change significantly from what we've grown up with, but I agree that the best way to do it is not with special muscle group training, but with dance training under the supervision of a very good teacher.

Edit: Not just dance, but also other physical activities that focus on movement and require good, strong posture in the execution of those movements. But if dance is what you love to do, then dance is the best choice.
 
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Kashmir

New member
:) yep :) its why i told her the safest way to do them :) and yes -- of course theres more than just the tummy strength that supports lol, but its the main one. I generalize somtimes because i also assume folks got a brain and can certainly fill in the blanks on their own ;) lol
:)
Missed the point - situps do not work your TAs - or any of the postural muscles to any degree.

Safety is important but doing
situps you need are the ones where you keep your knees bent slighly (at 45° angle or less if you can) and keeping your arms either crossed in front or out to sides, working more of *both* your upper and lower tummy muscles
may be safer - but still can be done (and often are) using the hip flexors. You need to specifically train yourself not to do this if you want to improve ab strength.
 

Greek Bonfire

Well-known member
Missed the point - situps do not work your TAs - or any of the postural muscles to any degree.

Safety is important but doing
may be safer - but still can be done (and often are) using the hip flexors. You need to specifically train yourself not to do this if you want to improve ab strength.

I'm glad you said this as I've often wondered why situps never helped mine. :clap: In fact, yoga has helped me the most for ab strength.
 

Kashmir

New member
I'm glad you said this as I've often wondered why situps never helped mine. :clap: In fact, yoga has helped me the most for ab strength.
Yep, I used to be able to hang upsidedown on the wall bars and do 100 sit ups - but still struggled with some of the ab-driven work we did in jazz class :(
 

missanime

New member
Yep, I used to be able to hang upsidedown on the wall bars and do 100 sit ups - but still struggled with some of the ab-driven work we did in jazz class :(

Wouldnt those only work your upper part of your tummy..? Thought those were guy's situps lol :) whereas women tend to gain weight on the lower tummy part.
 
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adiemus

New member
Weight gain is about fat not muscle strength, so women are more inclined to lay fat deposits down on belly, hips and thighs. Don't forget too that working a muscle will give it more bulk even though we don't gain huge muscle bulk like men do. You can't spot or target areas to lose weight either, you lose all over the areas that you lay down fat rather than just belly! Which is why you end up losing boob size as well as hip size when you lose weight. Darn it!
 

Kashmir

New member
Wouldnt those only work your upper part of your tummy..? Thought those were guy's situps lol :) whereas women tend to gain weight on the lower tummy part.
Nope - hanging from my feet I used my hip flexors - hardly any ab at all. And I wasn't doing it for weight loss - if we had the class in NZ I'd have been a women's lightweight rower!
 

missanime

New member
Nope - hanging from my feet I used my hip flexors - hardly any ab at all. And I wasn't doing it for weight loss - if we had the class in NZ I'd have been a women's lightweight rower!

Lol you seem quite fond of "hip flexors" huh lol :)

Good ol' book on the head while practicing helped me :D! Yes, seriously!

Yep exactly :D still the best "mothers advice"! :)
 
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sheeva

New member
Same boat

I am a sloth, I know this. I am trying to lose weight again, I belly danced for a few years and then had to quit. I am so fat now that watching demo's of the "pelvic" tilt leave me frustrated. I am too fat to see if my pelvis is tilted!! I have an exaggerated S curve and I find the only way I can get my pelvis to look the way the instructors does, is to suck everything in and clench my butt cheeks for dear life.


This is wrong, it feels wrong and I have no idea what this "tuck your pelvis and rotate it forward" business is all about.

Statements like "Tuck your pelvis and lift it toward your belly button" The only way my pelvis will get anywhere near my belly button is if I do the above mentioned move.

Help?
 

Imeera

New member
I am a sloth, I know this. I am trying to lose weight again, I belly danced for a few years and then had to quit. I am so fat now that watching demo's of the "pelvic" tilt leave me frustrated. I am too fat to see if my pelvis is tilted!! I have an exaggerated S curve and I find the only way I can get my pelvis to look the way the instructors does, is to suck everything in and clench my butt cheeks for dear life.


This is wrong, it feels wrong and I have no idea what this "tuck your pelvis and rotate it forward" business is all about.

Statements like "Tuck your pelvis and lift it toward your belly button" The only way my pelvis will get anywhere near my belly button is if I do the above mentioned move.

Help?

You may be doing it right but it may not look like much because of abdominal fat. Try again and tuck as much as is comfortable. Don't concentrate on how it looks, concentrate on how it feels. If it still feels wrong no matter how slight you try and do a tuck, don't do it. Try dancing without any tuck, just lose and natural, and see how it feels.

Here is a video explaining posture: YouTube - Beginner Belly Dancing Lessons : Correct Posture for Belly Dancing

I don't know how good it is but it may help, though remember even if you do or do not do a tuck. Keep everything else the same (knees bent, chest raised ect)

Good luck =D
 
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