National attitudes to bellydance and bellydancers

[chryssanthi sahar]

As about the figure item: I think that in the international belly dance community there are no norms for that. If a dancer is good, it doesn't matter what kind of figure she/he has. For the average audience though, it depends on the country. Since I live, so to say, in two countries, I can tell differences. In Germany the audience is rather tolerant. They don't expect belly dancers to look like models, most of the people who like to watch belly dance even prefer curvy dancers over slim dancers. In Greece though, the average audience expects a belly dancer to be very slim and very young (especially the bouzoukia club audience). But also there things are changing slowly (fortunately).

 

[Kiraze]

After observing how people react to dancing in Finland, Turkey and now Singapore there are both similarities and differencies. In all these countries general audience thinks at first that dance is entertainment and most people do not connect it to stripping or prostitution etc - naturally some do e.g. in Turkey I think in bigger cities there is more negative attitude - however not too many consider dance as an art form either so dance is just dance.

Being any kind of entertainer is not considered any dream job in any of these countries - in stiff-necked Protestant Finland historically any fun has been a sin so it is not very dignified to be a dancer (but it is perfectly fine to be a dance teacher) and as dancing has not been very visible part of every day life any kind of new dance style has been approved as an exotic hobby: people are curious but general audience is not too interested in cultural background of the dances they jsut like to enjoy beautiful show... at the same time local dance scene has worked hard to enhance the image of belly dance and as there in fact has not even been very negative image this has also worked against the dance as many consider belly dance nowadays to be boring artsy stuff done to the weird music

In Turkey dancing is part and parcel of any family celebration or any social gathering so most of the people know at least some folk dances and they like to watch belly dancing and to try out some ideas they have seen: as all entertainers dancers are however seen as loose women especially on more religious countryside but still secretly when women gather some ladies are happy to demonstrate some moves they have seen Asena, Didem, Tanyeli etc. do on TV (and older folks even in some remote village can remember names of the big stars like Nesrin Topkapi) - naturally on western side of the country belly dance is seen much more and on touristic hotspots dancing is widely accepted as a good way to raise foreigner´s interest towards Turkish culture in all

As Singapore is a new spot on belly dance map here is not much historical background for "western dances" like belly dance :lol: - it is a current fad and here seems to be quite open minded attitude to this and combining belly dance to anything from Bollywood to flamenco or pole dancing or even stripping does not seem to be a problem: almost the contrary as anti-sexual politics of Singapore (here e.g. all porn magazines are banned and even red light district is not marked on maps even though it does exist ) has somehow created a vacuum, where any kind of dancing where women can feel sensual has their place and without much cultural education (I have noticed that most even more experienced dancers know almost nothing about the background of dance, different styles etc) dancing is just taught to be fun mishmash. Of course there are serious dancers who know their art and they are working hard to give correct information to their student and audiences but as an outside observer I find dance scene here a bit confusing :think:

 

[Dev]

Hello forum,

I have met many people who think Belly Dancing is some sort of excercise to loose the extra killos :shok: and I have not met anybody in Australia who has a negative thought about the dance.

Far better that than the emaciated, boulemic Nazi death camp survivor look. We've all seen these poor gals, some of them can even dance - but who can tell?

What do you mean Zorba? I have no problem with Big Bellydancers and i dont have any problem with small framed belly dancers either.

 

[Zorba]

What do you mean Zorba? I have no problem with Big Bellydancers and i dont have any problem with small framed belly dancers either.

I don't have problems with small FRAMED Belly Dancers either. Twas not to which I was referring. I'm (trying to) talk about women (and a few men), dancers or no, who you can count every rib in their ribcage. Wasn't there a thread here recently about the fashion industry and their insistence on anorexic models?

That's what I really meant. No problems here with a small frame - I just don't think I should be able to SEE the frame - small or not! One of my instructors is very tiny - I have to be careful to cover my mouth if I sneeze, otherwise I'd blow her across the room! But she's "weight appropriate" (read: not boulemic/anorexic) for her size.

 

[Moon]

Oh please, not the same discussion about thin people again...
People can be skinny by nature, not all skinny people are boulimic/anorexic! And those skinny people can be just as insecure about their bodies as overweighted people can be, and they are just as harmed by remarks as "emaciated, boulemic Nazi death camp survivor look" as overweighted people are when you make nasty remarks about their bodies. Please, don't start this over again, this thread is about national attitudes against bellydance(rs), not about fashion industry and current beauty ideals.
For me, it's the quality of dance that matters, not the looks of the dancers and skinny dancers as well as overweighted dancers have as much right to perform as "normal-sized" dancers.

 

[Maria_Aya]

My dear Chryssanthi covered Greece 99 %
I would like to add some things

The so boring and non artistic choice of music in clubs and restaurants.
Hakim, and Hakim and Hakim, just for a change BDSS cd's.

Its from a luck of knowledge partly but mainly its what the owners think people will like, so its a loop

Also you will never believe the money that are payed for costumes !!!! and nails, and hair lol

 

[Aisha Azar]

Image, etc

Dear Zorba,
I notice that belly dancers themselves are (for the most part) more accepting of dancers of all sizes than is the general public. In a dancer audience, and with the Arabs, now that I am pretty chubby, I still have little trouble being recognized as a dancer of quality. But, among the uneducated public, I have to prove myself, where as one of my lithe and lovely and young beginner students gets immediate positive response. (BTW, I think you have a little prejudice there against thin dancers, many of whom are just wonderful.) It is what Americans are trained to think of as beautiful and I do not hold it against them. I only wish they could see things more clearly. The untrained eye views the dancer differently than a trained dancer does.
Regards,
A'isha

Postscript: I think that in some countries, it is more acceptable to be plump than it is here in the States, as Chryssanthi and some others have pointed out.

Fortunately, the exact opposite often occurs within our community. I certainly know some dancers that range from large, to Large, to LARGE, to *HUGE* - and they are all an utter joy to watch! They're great in class too - you can see what they're doing and thus they're very easy to follow!

Far better that than the emaciated, boulemic Nazi death camp survivor look. We've all seen these poor gals, some of them can even dance - but who can tell?

 

[Zorba]

Now I'm getting a bit irritated - truth to tell.

I *thought* I was speaking in the Queen's English. I guess I'm not, but I don't know how to clarify any farther, but I'll try one last time:

I have nothing "against" skinny dancers - NOT AT ALL!!!

I don't even have anything against anorexic dancers - NOT AT ALL - I just feel sorry for them. If I can count every rib and see every detail of the clavicle, the poor gal has some problems. References to "current fashion trends" was NOT an attempt to hijack the thread, it was an attempt to clarify myself from the LAST round of criticisms.

Jeez - people think Bhuz is catty?

I'm done with this thread, whether or not anyone understands my ravings.

Yea, I feel better...

 

[sstacy123]

Living in Alabama which is known for being more conservative, Bible Belt, etc... so far I haven't had any negative response to my dancing, although I haven't been doing it too long. I have had a lot of people comment on it being good exercise though or wanting a demonstration. I am a bit curious the reaction I would get if I went to church and spoke of it...I'm not really sure. I don't feel like it would be negative, but I'm just not sure.

Oh, one more note, there was an article about my instructor which mentioned in early years some religious groups protested her teaching at at the university but they visited her class and some even joined.

 

[Gabi]

Oh please, not the same discussion about thin people again...
People can be skinny by nature, not all skinny people are boulimic/anorexic! And those skinny people can be just as insecure about their bodies as overweighted people can be, and they are just as harmed by remarks as "emaciated, boulemic Nazi death camp survivor look" as overweighted people are when you make nasty remarks about their bodies. Please, don't start this over again, this thread is about national attitudes against bellydance(rs), not about fashion industry and current beauty ideals.
For me, it's the quality of dance that matters, not the looks of the dancers and skinny dancers as well as overweighted dancers have as much right to perform as "normal-sized" dancers.

Ditto - been there, done that, and I'm done with it. Well maybe

tried to give you rep for that but 'puter says must spread it around a bit more first

OK - perceptions around my neck of the woods.

The general public doesn't have any negative associations about BD in all it's forms and is actually totally unaware of the more recents forms of it.

The BD community here seems to be supportive of all forms and tries to incorporate and provide venues that include representatives of all forms and the differing groups do seem to be very supportive within themselves.

That's not to say there aren't individuals and groups who are asshats who denigrate each other - there are and it hits both ways.

Dance is a performing art and if there is no one to watch and support the dance dies, for that reason if no other, I personally think it's important to have respect and support for all forms of BD, including Tribal and Fusion, etc. One interest often leads to a more all encompassing interest and that benefits everyone.

 

[Kharmine]

Not everyone here has been involved in previous discussions of what many of you see as the "same, old topics." And even if they have, maybe a fresh or better-articulated opinion ought to have the courtesy of being "heard" without being jumped on or judged hastily.

Those of you folks who are even now rolling your eyes over what you think is yet another argument about you think is, and should be, done with -- just amuse yourself elsewhere for the moment, won't you?

As any cultural anthropologist can tell you, we humans are genetically hardwired to unconsciously look for whatever the optimum signs of health and fertility are built into us from our ancestral memories. It's in our genes, as it were.

That means that how we perceive and assess the appearance of others is not simply based on our upbringing, media images, and other environmental factors. We are NOT, entirely, that shallow, or just victims of our modern culture.

Some of those signs encouraged by genetic AND cultural memory are things like proportion and symmetry in weight and bone structure. Consciously or not, we approve of "balance." It's a sign of health. Visual images of what we perceive as ill health makes us uncomfortable. They are meant to. That's what we're wired to feel.

Someone in a costume that makes his/her body look way out of proportion, out of balance, the opposite of what we perceive as "healthy" is presenting a visual message that may be so strong to us that it is a distraction from the performance itself.

When we say a skeletally thin dancer in a skimpy costume makes us uncomfortable because we can see her ribs, or that her extremely thin and very bare arms make some of her movements look spidery -- those are reasonable comments, so long as they are not motivated by spite.

They are comments as reasonable as when we say a dancer who has squeezed an ample body into a too-small costume looks as if she is about to burst out of it or that it appears she's trying too hard to look 'sexy."

And we are, after all, talking about "performance," entertainment submitted for approval to an audience. If something about a dancer's appearance is so startling to an audience that it detracts from the performance itself, then it is a legitimate topic of discussion when we're talking about the quality of the performance.

This does NOT mean we should get into snide asides about the intelligence or moral fiber of the dancer. Nor does it mean that we have to get mean -- "She looked pleased with herself" may not be diplomatic, but it really is perfectly OK to say "She didn't appear to realize how uncomfortable the audience was with her appearance."

When we are silent about such an essential element of a dancer's performance as her appearance, we are not doing that dancer any favors. If she is at all serious about the quality of her public performance, she needs to wear a costume that downplays the negatives, accentuates her positives and helps her performance to shine.

 

[Gabi]

Awww Geez - I don't wanna quote all that.

But more of my opinion

As a medical physical fitness/wellness specialist *cough cough* - just establishing my credentials here .....

Extreme fat is as distracting as super visible bones. Extreme fat is as much a sign of infertility as ultra thin; each extreme often has problems and each extreme often has no problems at all. But how many kids you might potentially pop out isn't really the point.

A dancers appearance is always going to have a part of how they are viewed.

As to which conversations are legitimate or something an individual is tired of - that's up for grabs too.

Any of us who venture an opinion on a message are subject to having others give their opinions about that so let's just not get on a high horse and ask other opinions to appease, howz that ???

 

[Suheir]

My opinion on the Fat/Thin debate: Dance has aesthetics, like any other art form. To me, a dancer whose collarbone, ribs and shinbones are distracting me is just as aesthetically displeasing as one whose rolls of fat are obscuring any abdominal movements - they both detract from my enjoyment of watching a performer. These are two extremes.

 

[Kharmine]

Well. golly, Gabi, I didn't think I had mounted any horse, high or sober.

I was asking for more civility, and a little less here-we-go-again type attitude. And I think I explained why pretty darn adequately.

Whatever your credentials in another area may be, I was speaking from the viewpoint of cultural anthropology about why it was we humans tended to favor certain signs of physical appearance. And why we tended to be uncomfortable with other signs that indicate ill health to us.

Cultural anthropology is a particular interest of mine, and while I don't claim to be an expert I know enough to give you as many solid expert references as you may require.

Yes, it is a given that, in general, humans are uncomfortable with BOTH extremes of physical appearance, thinness or fatness.

I am saying that's just one of those things of which we can't simply blame personal "bias" or cultural prejudice or even just good ol' spite by pointing this out -- as seems to be the accusation that lets fly if anyone dare venture an opinion about a dancer's extremity of appearance, no matter how carefully stated.

I never said audience members are literally looking for an indication that the dancer was fertile. If anyone thinks that, I invite him or her to go back and read what I originally wrote with as little prejudice as possible.

But that kind of misunderstanding proves that I am wasting my time asking for reason when, clearly, emotion is running stronger.

And as I hate wasting my time -- I'll simply join Zorba, fold up my tent and move off this thread. Salaam.

 

[Gabi]

Well. golly, Gabi, I didn't think I had mounted any horse, high or sober.

.......I'll simply join Zorba, fold up my tent and move off this thread. Salaam.

Personally I adore horses high or not

Anyway - it's probably just not right to keep on this topic right here but it's kind of hard not to comment when the inevitable weight and what's preferable thing comes up.

When the question is asked about national attitudes, I suppose it IS inevitable but there is a difference between mentioning what that national preference seem to be and making statements that are, let's say, debatable and then expect no one to respond.

I think attitudes towards skinny dancers (and people in general) are much harsher these days in the US than those that tend towards fat. And this with obesity being more and more of a problem. People who are perfectly normal weight by any healthy standard are being trounced as skinny and anorexic, in belly dancing in particular it is almost expected to be at least a bit on the chubby side and comments of "give her a sandwich" abound.

Of course, those perceived to be beautiful will always have an advantage and those outside the range will indeed sometimes have to be even better to get equal interest. This applies everywhere as people just like to look at beautiful people. It's something that everyone has to deal with and it's a waste of time to focus on the unfairness of it.

 

[Moon]

Of course, those perceived to be beautiful will always have an advantage and those outside the range will indeed sometimes have to be even better to get equal interest. This applies everywhere as people just like to look at beautiful people. It's something that everyone has to deal with and it's a waste of time to focus on the unfairness of it.

Fortunately, "beautiful" is a matter of taste. There's hope for all of us. "Healthy" or not!

Now I hope this thread will go back to its original topic.

 

[Yasmine Bint Al Nubia]

Whew it's getting hot in here!
Yasmine

 

[Aisha Azar]

National, etc.

Dear Group,
Kharmine has a point in that if a topic has once been discussed, that does not mean that it can not be re-opened. I have noticed a trend several times, iof dancers getting a bit nitsy about a topic re-opening because they, personally do not want to discuss it. Kharmine is correct in pointing out that there are new people on the forum all the time and that the topic is not new to them. We, at any time have the right not to particiapte in any part of the forum. (Note, for example, that I did not get into any of the recent BDSS stuff, though it was VERY tempting... I just quit reading it so as not to say what I really think of "Bellynesian", or rehash the debate, speaking of national attitudes.)
To Kharmine: I also feel that dancers must look at the dance from a very broad number of subjects, including ethnic sociology and cultural anthropology, history, religion, etc. I think that then, we begin to understand the dance better from the "national attitudes" of its originators.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Moon]

It's not that I don't want to discuss certain things, it's that new members have a lot of opertunities to find the threads where the subjects they want to discuss are discussed, and otherwise they are free to make new threads. But I like it better when threads stay a bit more within topic when there is already another thread where the topic is discussed (and I don't mind when they keep on discussing for centuries, I'll be happy to join the discussions and if not I just don't post there) instead of starting over the same discussion in a thread that is about another topic.

 

[Aniseteph]

:shok: Talk about going off thread - I turn my back for a few hours and look what happens! :naghty: Salome will have us thrown into the Sauna, unless everyone has walked out already.

The reason I started this thread (may be repeating myself here, but c'est la vie) was I keep picking up on people's feelings that certain ways of dancing, fusions, lack of "authenticity" etc. are bad for belly dance inasmuch as they bring it into disrepute, tarnish its image, or degrade it in some way. What I was interested in was what this Good/Bad Reputation Of Bellydance actually was in different places.

I'm increasingly aware that my experience of the world of bellydance is very different to other people's; it's that blind-people-describing-the-elephant thing again. At my end of the elephant, in a relatively affluent part of a fairly liberal country, I don't see anyones individual style or interpretation being likely to degrade bellydance or bellydancers. You can even go to pole dancing classes here and it's no big deal - people really aren't that bothered. No one is going to put a stop to dance events cos they got some strange idea about what bellydance is about - they'd just get laughed at.

But at another part of the elephant there might be more at stake - perhaps a misjudged performance COULD tarnish the reputation of the dance and get events stopped, classes barred from venues etc. I don't know, and was wondering if it was a national thing, or just a matter of which little pond we each happen to be swimming in.

Right, got a pair of harem pants to work on.