He said what?!

[Shanazel]

Bonnie! You don't wear pasties? :shok: I am shocked, my dear, truly shocked. I thought it was bad enough when I saw a dancer wearing pasties that matched her shoes instead of her belt, but to not wear them at all!

What is the world coming to?

I really disliked his translation, it was perverted, sexist beyond imagination and written in a rather dry and boring way.

That sums up Sir Richard Burton and the Victorian era nicely. Tsk. Things just haven't been the same since dear Jane died and when the regency ended things just went totally to hell.

 

[LuLu]

Um the definition is this, the guy obviously does not know how to use a dictionary.
whore (hôr, hr)
[n.]
1. A prostitute.
2. A person considered sexually promiscuous.
3. A person considered as having compromised principles for personal gain.
intr.v. whored, whor·ing, whores
1. To associate or have sexual relations with prostitutes or a prostitute.
2. To accept payment in exchange for sexual relations.
3. To compromise one's principles for personal gain.

whore [n.]
a prostitute or promiscuous woman: often a term of abuse
vb (intr)
1. to be or act as a prostitute
2. (of a man) to have promiscuous sexual relations, esp with prostitutes
3. (often foll by after) to seek that which is immoral, idolatrous, etc.
[Old English hōre; related to Old Norse hōra, Old High German hvora, Latin carus dear]
whorish adj
whorishly adv
whorishness n

I can not believe he said that. I just finished reading a book that gave a brief history along with touching other topics of Belly Dance. I found it rather lovely to read its called Belly Dancing: The Sensual Art of Energy and Spirit by Pina Coluccia, Anette Paffrath, and Jean Putz. It had a section on the harem and western misconceptions of Belly Dance. I learned alot from it.

 

[LadyLoba]

OH MAN!!! First I learn that I will not be able to dance like Sadie, Kaya, or Shakira after only one lesson...I have to study and practice. And now I find out I don't get to perform wearing pasties!!!

That's it...I quit!!


:lol::lol::lol:

*just kidding on all that*

-Seriously...that definition proves the point...a "whore" is certainly not "someone who engages in an activity somebody else does not find appealing."

 

[Sherezade]

When I told my friends that I wanted to learn bellydance they also went :shok:. They said this type of dance is mainly to attract men and I had to explain that if they learn a bit about it, they'll realise it isn't. I do agree that bellydance is very sensual and therefore, can be misunderstood by some types of minds, especially those which come from more conservative backgrounds. There are some people who associate the slightest hip movement to teasing. I think they mess up being sensual with being common. I remember that at my first (and so far only ) class, a lady observed that in Portugal (where I originally come from) women feel embarrassed about bd because they are not used to develop their sensual side. They've been taught to believe that women should be calm and quite, even laughing out loud in a public place can sometimes be been as common. Things are changing, it's true, but there is still a lot to do.

Then we have some men who can't seem to separate things as well. When they see a woman dancing in a sensual way, they automatically believe she is teasing them and wants to... They don't seem to realise that it's they who are being pervs.

Or, which is even worse, these dancers are criticised by other women. Either because they grow up believing women should be quite or because they feel insecure themselves, they accuse confident women with sensual attitudes of being bitches. Sad, but still true in 2011.

 

[Imeera]

When I told my friends that I wanted to learn bellydance they also went :shok:. They said this type of dance is mainly to attract men and I had to explain that if they learn a bit about it, they'll realise it isn't. I do agree that bellydance is very sensual and therefore, can be misunderstood by some types of minds, especially those which come from more conservative backgrounds. There are some people who associate the slightest hip movement to teasing. I think they mess up being sensual with being common. I remember that at my first (and so far only ) class, a lady observed that in Portugal (where I originally come from) women feel embarrassed about bd because they are not used to develop their sensual side. They've been taught to believe that women should be calm and quite, even laughing out loud in a public place can sometimes be been as common. Things are changing, it's true, but there is still a lot to do.

Then we have some men who can't seem to separate things as well. When they see a woman dancing in a sensual way, they automatically believe she is teasing them and wants to... They don't seem to realise that it's they who are being pervs.

Or, which is even worse, these dancers are criticised by other women. Either because they grow up believing women should be quite or because they feel insecure themselves, they accuse confident women with sensual attitudes of being bitches. Sad, but still true in 2011.

Loved this. This sums up my feelings on this subject. I completly agree with what you said. Humans can't separate instinct and emotion :lol: Nor do they realise most of what they want to do and do is instinct, and we think we are better than other animals, they might not have running water but at least they are not deulided into thinking we can control our instincts :lol: Not that its an excuse, infact with our lovely brains there should be less of this (we should think "hm, this is simply my hormones. Its not actually sexual a sexual dance. How sensual! ) not more! We are an amazing speices, but we are hardly separated from the other animals huh Oh how many things would be solved if people wouldn't misunderstand! :lol:

Weird fact, did you know animals (eukaryotes) are more related to fungi than anything else. Next we will be sitting in circles!

 

[Reen.Blom]

and even just dancing to music in general on a night out are so accepted in the general western culture as not being "whoreish" and yet Belly dance is. Firstly, do you agree/disagree that it has been hightly sexualised in western culture? Is it really because the focus is on the hips and/or chest? Is it because it is exotic? Or because they don't understand the dance?

In ME bellydance is often used by prostitutes to 'sell' other services. By lower rank dancers and higher rank dancers alike. No wonder a woman dancing in public is seen as a whore??? Some time ago we discussed a couple of nasty clips of bellydancers at Egyptian weddings, yes lower class, but letting *eehm* their boobs hang out of the costume, dancing in a suggestive manner, short skirts. You might still find those clips. Although people do pay them to dance at their weddings and I guess for other 'services' why would you want your daughter/sister do the same???

It is NOT all about 'dancing in public' it is about prostitutes dancing in public, so guilty by association.

As for the West, well to myself I believe that bellydancers are associated with exotic dancers because of revealing costumes, and top mostly being a bra? Where else do you parade around in a bra but on the beach or the bedroom??? Even the closed dresses mostly show A LOT of cleavage. Much much more than would be worn for any other occasion. After all bedlah is a 'harem fantasy' costume.

That all aside from certain dancers wearing VERY VERY little. ANd myths of seduction and and and....

I recommend watching Bellydancers of Cairo movie.

 

[Reen.Blom]

Example:

No wonder bride covered her face!! I would do too!!!



Now, beautiful famous Dina:
whatever her personal sexual liberaion struggle is, what does it do for the image of the dance??? Like she would care.



I would not like my daugher to look like this or be percieved as such.

 

[goddessyasaman]

The guy who said that was plain rude, in this dance style you will come across dancers who don't help with the way people sometimes see this style of dance what could we do really I wonder:think: All we can do is be the best dancers we can be and show the world we are not anything like the word whore. We dance to show the Beauty and grace that is within us

 

[Imeera]

In ME bellydance is often used by prostitutes to 'sell' other services. By lower rank dancers and higher rank dancers alike. No wonder a woman dancing in public is seen as a whore??? Some time ago we discussed a couple of nasty clips of bellydancers at Egyptian weddings, yes lower class, but letting *eehm* their boobs hang out of the costume, dancing in a suggestive manner, short skirts. You might still find those clips. Although people do pay them to dance at their weddings and I guess for other 'services' why would you want your daughter/sister do the same???

It is NOT all about 'dancing in public' it is about prostitutes dancing in public, so guilty by association.

As for the West, well to myself I believe that bellydancers are associated with exotic dancers because of revealing costumes, and top mostly being a bra? Where else do you parade around in a bra but on the beach or the bedroom??? Even the closed dresses mostly show A LOT of cleavage. Much much more than would be worn for any other occasion. After all bedlah is a 'harem fantasy' costume.

That all aside from certain dancers wearing VERY VERY little. ANd myths of seduction and and and....

I recommend watching Bellydancers of Cairo movie.

This is fair enough if it was in a different culture. But the man was English, talking to an English woman. If it was cultural I would see reason. But its not, English women can do a lot that other cultures seen as wrong and all the English males (and other females) would be fine with it. So why if an English woman was dancing in a non sexual way as a belly dancer does he call her a whore? This is what I was annoyed at. The costumes are too revealing in say Egypt that most dancers wear here, but here it really isn't, sometimes more modest than what women wear normally here!

 

[Reen.Blom]

I do not say t gives him right to call anyone a whore, plain rude.

But it is that the dance form comes with 'baggage'. Say your average Englishman types bellydance on youtube and sees the above clips or others like Sadie and Kaya (western)?

That's exactly what my mom did and she said 'THIS is what the dance is about, THIS is how EGYPTIANS dance, after all it originated in ME'.... Errggggghhh I had hard time persuading her it is not 'REAL' bellydance.

And yes, put on harem fantasy costume, however glorified and expensive be prepared to be a 'harem babe' aka a whore.

It is not how the dance is represented in a certain country, it is about 'reputation' of the dance as a whole. Between harem fantasy and real life prostitutes we must be prepared to be misunderstood.

 

[Sherezade]

I think I quite get what you mean Reen.Blom. Some women also use bellydance for less decent purposes. The first video is really horrible and you can see that the dancer isn't worried about dancing as an art. She's not even wearing typical bd clothes. The purpose is to tease the audience - and guess what? 99% of it is men! - and to be honest, it's really inappropriate for a wedding.

So, in general, I think that when the purpose is to show our inner light and our spirit, bellydance is beautiful, artistic and pure, I dare say. If it's adopted by women who have less decent purposes, it becomes rude and ugly. And, unfortunately, it gives REAL bellydance a bad name and a bad reputation.

 

[Belly Love]

Honestly, I don't see the video of Dina to be too far off from the first vid. She is also wearing a very revealing outfit- the skirt barely covers her butt and she bends over with her legs spread.

I get that Dina is more talented,etc. but I also think Dina is often times held to different standards by those who think she is "the cat's meow".

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Both of those clips are belly dance.

Dina maybe someone people aspire to and the other .. perhaps not!

I agree that the clips have some things in common.. they are meant to be sexy, and that is how belly dance started and will continue to be...it IS a sexy/sensual dance.

'Inner light' etc. is a personal spin that people put on this dance.

We cannot change what is, but we do not have to follow it either.

We can choose to dance just like Samia Gamal et al, but to reject everything else and say it is not belly dance is ignorance.

People in the West often have a strong urge to re-define this dance into something more pallatable to themselves.. we need to understand the difference between what is 'real' and what is 'undesirable'.

 

[Imeera]

I do not say t gives him right to call anyone a whore, plain rude.

But it is that the dance form comes with 'baggage'. Say your average Englishman types bellydance on youtube and sees the above clips or others like Sadie and Kaya (western)?

That's exactly what my mom did and she said 'THIS is what the dance is about, THIS is how EGYPTIANS dance, after all it originated in ME'.... Errggggghhh I had hard time persuading her it is not 'REAL' bellydance.

And yes, put on harem fantasy costume, however glorified and expensive be prepared to be a 'harem babe' aka a whore.

It is not how the dance is represented in a certain country, it is about 'reputation' of the dance as a whole. Between harem fantasy and real life prostitutes we must be prepared to be misunderstood.

Sorry I misunderstood. I should have realised it wasn't what you were saying, not a very bright moment for me :lol:, but yes I do agree with you and Sherezade. Sadie is a really good dancer, its such a shame she does some questionable things. I used to really love her but then in one of her photos I saw a line of dollars in the skirt/bra, I was so shocked! Its a shame even still when women do play to the 'harem babe' act. Slave girl type thing. Its sad its come to this, its also based off false history which just makes it funny

This is a massive example of it (note she disabled likes/dislikes and comments have to pend approval, there are NO bad comments at all)

YouTube - Egyptian KASHMIR sexy belly dance, kashmir!dayton,ohio,instruction,oasis dayton ohio

When I see things like this I just want to cry and yell at them

 

[Nailah_Siti]

Shield my eyes!!! I think there is a huge difference between sexy and slutty. There is NO reason to wear skimpy, hoochie skirts when you're already wearing a (what is practically) a bra and showing your stomach. When I was teenager, my mother sat me down and taught me what is perceived as trashy versus sexy in clothing and I feel it applies to belly dance also. Sexy= accents one portion of the body that is attractive (upper body or lower body, cleavage or legs, etc.). It is trashy to show off EVERYTHING you have. Where is the mystique? Belly dance is still sexy even if you're wearing a potatoe sack tied with rope, so why leave nothing to the imagination?

 

[Nailah_Siti]

Also, is it just me or is it really immodest to rub/touch yourself during a dance? I've noticed all the greats use their hands to frame but never titilate by touching erogenous areas of their body. Could just be my imagination

 

[Belly Love]

Also, is it just me or is it really immodest to rub/touch yourself during a dance? I've noticed all the greats use their hands to frame but never titilate by touching erogenous areas of their body. Could just be my imagination

I'm not sure if it originally has anything to do with modesty, but no, no touching of the body is usually done and is considered immodest by some. Some don't agree with touching of the skirt either (if it's one of those flowy chiffon ones that have slits and can be moved about with the hands).

 

[Sherezade]

Oh, dear... I don't think I like this video you posted, Imeera. Maybe it's me but she looks so... artificial. I don't even find her movements graceful, though I've already seen other dancers doing the same and look mcuh more natural and smooth.

 

[Nailah_Siti]

Oh no, I went to far and checked into this woman's website. Needless to say, it's scary


Home - turkish kashmirs oasis

 

[Reen.Blom]

but to reject everything else and say it is not belly dance is ignorance.

People in the West often have a strong urge to re-dfeine this dance into something more pallatable to themselves.. we need to understand the difference between what is 'real' and what is 'undesirable'.

Who said its not bellydance?

I said that prostitutes bellydance and bellydancers prostitute in ME(and some other parts of the world for that matter), in reply to OP's surprise to hear a bellydancer called a whore by someone who is not a gentleman, anyway.

In many cases women have no other way to earn living, in others it is CHOICE - sex sells? who are we to judge?


Thank goodness that Modern Egyptian is not the only style available and we DO have a choice.