Do we know Belly dance history

[SidraK]

You have a point, yet it does matter to a point to know if we want to be taken serious in the art world, knowing as much as you can about an art style is very important I think, Dance is a hard area to locate who started what style when, but thats not where we are what I think should be known is where it came from, if this is not located people will never stop saying it came from here and here. In the end if that is what will be then thats fine But should we not try? I do wish for this dance to become a true art.

Oh, I'm not saying it's not worth studying. Heck, I've spent most of my schooling and significant chunks of my working life in the fields of history, anthropology and archaeology.

But it's important to remember that dance, as with most forms of intangible cultural heritage, does not leave a record that is traceable for very far back into the "days of yore". We can speak with authority about the development of modern belly dance over the last hundred years or so. We can study the dances of modern tribal cultures and their oral histories of their dance forms, and often in combination with written records/photographs and drawings of explorers, adventurers, and invaders we can develop credible theories of pre-"belly dance" dance for several generations further back. Anything past that, and it's really just an interesting speculative exercise.

One of thing that drives me mad is the notion that for something to be credible, it has to be older than old. Cultural expressions change all the time and with frightening rapidity. There's no shame in that. We're people...that's what we do.



ETA: I also think that the popular failure to recognize belly dance as an art form has less to do with the documentation of its origins, and more to do with the way our current cultural milieu regards things that are culturally "other" and matters related to our perceptions of gender and sexuality.

 

[goddessyasaman]

Oh, I'm not saying it's not worth studying. Heck, I've spent most of my schooling and significant chunks of my working life in the fields of history, anthropology and archaeology.

One of thing that drives me mad is the notion that for something to be credible, it has to be older than old. Cultural expressions change all the time and with frightening rapidity. There's no shame in that. We're people...that's what we do.



ETA: I also think that the popular failure to recognize belly dance as an art form has less to do with the documentation of its origins, and more to do with the way our current cultural milieu regards things that are culturally "other" and matters related to our perceptions of gender and sexuality.

It's not that something has to be older then old as you say, but that it's history is of importants as you agree. And very true that the lack of documentation has less to to do with the failure for belly dance to be recognized as an art form, I am rather sure as to what wins in that area and yes it will not change or can it? But still to the point The back history is a part of it, not only what it has changed into. But can we as "Belly dancer" make this dance be seen as something more then sex, the more I see and hear I just don't know if it will ever be respected like the Ballet or Modern dance, thou it is a form of modern dance, I hope it will not always be this way. Sigh ray:

 

[Tarik Sultan]

I don't understand

Why is it so hard for some people to wrap their heads around the idea that the Egyptian people created their own dance, history, culture? It seems when the question of the origin of anything Egyptian is raised some people always look outside of Egypt for an explanation. Therefore the pharaonic people and their civilization must have originated in Asia and then came to Egypt, Egyptian Dance had to have come from India etc. Do people question where the Hula came from, or Indian Dance? No. So why is Egypt considered some sort of vacume that was in need of foreign initiative? Honestly, are the Egyptian people that stupid that they have to wait around for someone else to teach them how to dance?:think:

As for Pharaonic dance. We cant look at 2 dementional drawings from a tomb and determine what kind of movements they were doing. Therefore, the book written by the Russian lady, (forget her name) about ancient dance has no legs to stand on. Its all her very subjective opinion. Also, why should we expect that their dance did not evolve over time internally? Dance is a response to music and as music styles change, so too does the way we resond to it and how we can respond to it.

I also would like to see our dance given the same recognition as other dance forms, but I disagree with the notion that unless Westerners can quantify it and put it in a neat little box with an interesting "ancient history" it can't thrive as a legitimate artform. How many Ballet teachers feel the need to delve into the ancient roots of that dance to understand it? What will get respect as an art is doing it in artistic ways and venues, nothing more or less.

 

[goddessyasaman]

Why is it so hard for some people to wrap their heads around the idea that the Egyptian people created their own dance, history, culture? It seems when the question of the origin of anything Egyptian is raised some people always look outside of Egypt for an explanation. Therefore the pharaonic people and their civilization must have originated in Asia and then came to Egypt, Egyptian Dance had to have come from India etc. Do people question where the Hula came from, or Indian Dance? No. So why is Egypt considered some sort of vacume that was in need of foreign initiative? Honestly, are the Egyptian people that stupid that they have to wait around for someone else to teach them how to dance?:think:


I also would like to see our dance given the same recognition as other dance forms, but I disagree with the notion that unless Westerners can quantify it and put it in a neat little box with an interesting "ancient history" it can't thrive as a legitimate artform. How many Ballet teachers feel the need to delve into the ancient roots of that dance to understand it? What will get respect as an art is doing it in artistic ways and venues, nothing more or less.

Is it really like that for egypt? I was not aware. But Egyptians do have a dance, and it's not so much as trying to say that it did't come from egypt for the fact of just saying so, but the fact that there are hints in history that show that "Belly dance" that it is now called, came from another place.




True that a " neat little box with an interesting ancient history" will not make a dance into a legitimate artform as you say, yet it holds some importance to it, and even if you say "How many Ballet teachers feel the need to delve into the ancient roots of that dance to understand it?" The history is still there if a student was to ask. Belly dance is hard pressed to become a Legitimate artform for many reasons, I do wish for it to become a true artform in the eyes of the art world yet will this happen as Belly dance is now? I for one don't see it happening as it stands.

 

[SidraK]

Oh, it's not just Egypt, Tarik. Think of the lengths that some people go to to try to prove that most ancient peoples weren't responsible for their own architecture, astronomical knowledge, art and cultural development. It was aliens! Or Atlanteans! Or hyperintelligent seafaring hippopotami!

How many Ballet teachers feel the need to delve into the ancient roots of that dance to understand it?

My feeling is that part of this phenomenon is due to the fact that where, in the West, most ballet teachers are from the overarching cultural tradition that gave rise to ballet where we don't have the same long-term societal links to belly dance. It comes from "outside" {insert scary music here}. My gut would say that if we want belly dance to hit the same degree of artistic legitimacy of ballet, we first have to get it to the same degree of social validity as other forms of ethnic dance that are widely practiced, such as Highland dancing, or Polynesian dancing, or (in my neck of the woods) Ukrainian dancing.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Is it really like that for egypt? I was not aware. But Egyptians do have a dance, and it's not so much as trying to say that it did't come from egypt for the fact of just saying so, but the fact that there are hints in history that show that "Belly dance" that it is now called, came from another place.

Well i suppose the crux of the issue here is that you need to define what you mean by the term Belly Dance. In my opinion, it is a term that was invented in the west to describe the native torso intesive dances of north Africa, particularly, and the theatrical version that developed in Egypt in the early 20th century.

As for evidence of it coming from another place, what evidence is there beyond speculation by western enthusiasts? I've not come across anything.

True that a " neat little box with an interesting ancient history" will not make a dance into a legitimate artform as you say, yet it holds some importance to it, and even if you say "How many Ballet teachers feel the need to delve into the ancient roots of that dance to understand it?" The history is still there if a student was to ask. Belly dance is hard pressed to become a Legitimate artform for many reasons, I do wish for it to become a true artform in the eyes of the art world yet will this happen as Belly dance is now? I for one don't see it happening as it stands.

Yes, but if that were to happen then we would loose the very thing that has driven its popularity and that is almost universal accesability. Other dance forms such as Ballet etc are very exclusionary as practitioners must study for years, conform to certain physical standards and must audition for performance opportunities. I don't think the majority of people would want to see that happen because that level of success would mean their exclusion.

 

[Ariadne]

Well i suppose the crux of the issue here is that you need to define what you mean by the term Belly Dance. In my opinion, it is a term that was invented in the west to describe the native torso intesive dances of north Africa, particularly, and the theatrical version that developed in Egypt in the early 20th century.

I would agree Tarik but the key word there is "and". The more I study history the more I find that the key to understanding both what and why something happens is to look at both the culture and the migrations that occur.

This dance is found from Algeria to Turkey and Greece and when I look for a common culture I find this; Ottoman Empire in 1683 (I have heard in stern tones that Morocco does not have it's own native style of bellydance, interesting yes?) Now everything I read about bellydance as it first emerges puts it in the late 19th early 20th century. When I look for a map from that time period I find this; Complete Map of Europe in Year 1900. First hand accounts as well as history make it clear that the French were the first to popularize the "danse du ventre" with dancers that they exported from Algeria, which makes sense when you look at the map. Those accounts also make it clear that tourists were traveling everywhere from Turkey to Algeria in the "Orient" to view these dances in their native areas, though yes there were a lot of Englishmen who went to Egypt; another thing that makes sense when you look at the map. Migrations? You had a lot of those in the early 20th century thanks to the weakening of the Ottoman Empire, WWII, the Armenian Genocide, and the Turkish National Movement.

As Aziyade said, "I don't think the impact of Egyptian cinema and the Casino Opera on modern bellydance can be hotly debated." There was a huge influence on the dance with both and there is no doubt that Badia Mansabny’s infusion of ballet into the dance made a huge difference but... there is a difference between influence and creation. I read accounts concerning the history of bellydance in Turkey that are adamant that they had their own concurrent creation of a style and historical records give them a leg to stand on. If it really is based on a cultural dance that spread through the Ottoman Empire that would only make sense seeing as how Istanbul was the capitol and would have been one of the main centers of culture. There is also the difference in dancing styles in the north where they already had their own upper torso vocabulary unlike the southern styles found in Egypt. This may explain why in studying the different styles I have also noticed that the further north or west the dance style is from Egypt the less of the influence of ballet can be seen in the style; but that is purely a personal observation.

Can we trace the creation of Raqs Sharqi to Badia Mansabny and the Casino Opera? Most certainly. We can also trace the modern Baladi and Sha'abi to Egypt as well as costuming changes beginning with the bedlah to the currant use of miniskirts (can I just say I can live without the last). The influence of Egypt on the world of bellydance cannot be ignored nor is it something to be ashamed of. Egypt is an amazing place and many times in history it has been the standard that the entire world looked to for innovation and learning. That does not however mean that it is the only place of origin where bellydance is concerned. Influence does not = creation and everything I find indicates a concurrent rather then an individual creation where "bellydance" is concerned.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

I would agree Tarik but the key word there is "and". The more I study history the more I find that the key to understanding both what and why something happens is to look at both the culture and the migrations that occur.

This dance is found from Algeria to Turkey and Greece and when I look for a common culture I find this; Ottoman Empire in 1683 (I have heard in stern tones that Morocco does not have it's own native style of bellydance, interesting yes?) Now everything I read about bellydance as it first emerges puts it in the late 19th early 20th century. When I look for a map from that time period I find this; Complete Map of Europe in Year 1900. First hand accounts as well as history make it clear that the French were the first to popularize the "danse du ventre" with dancers that they exported from Algeria, which makes sense when you look at the map. Those accounts also make it clear that tourists were traveling everywhere from Turkey to Algeria in the "Orient" to view these dances in their native areas, though yes there were a lot of Englishmen who went to Egypt; another thing that makes sense when you look at the map. Migrations? You had a lot of those in the early 20th century thanks to the weakening of the Ottoman Empire, WWII, the Armenian Genocide, and the Turkish National Movement.

As Aziyade said, "I don't think the impact of Egyptian cinema and the Casino Opera on modern bellydance can be hotly debated." There was a huge influence on the dance with both and there is no doubt that Badia Mansabny’s infusion of ballet into the dance made a huge difference but... there is a difference between influence and creation. I read accounts concerning the history of bellydance in Turkey that are adamant that they had their own concurrent creation of a style and historical records give them a leg to stand on. If it really is based on a cultural dance that spread through the Ottoman Empire that would only make sense seeing as how Istanbul was the capitol and would have been one of the main centers of culture. There is also the difference in dancing styles in the north where they already had their own upper torso vocabulary unlike the southern styles found in Egypt. This may explain why in studying the different styles I have also noticed that the further north or west the dance style is from Egypt the less of the influence of ballet can be seen in the style; but that is purely a personal observation.

Can we trace the creation of Raqs Sharqi to Badia Mansabny and the Casino Opera? Most certainly. We can also trace the modern Baladi and Sha'abi to Egypt as well as costuming changes beginning with the bedlah to the currant use of miniskirts (can I just say I can live without the last). The influence of Egypt on the world of bellydance cannot be ignored nor is it something to be ashamed of. Egypt is an amazing place and many times in history it has been the standard that the entire world looked to for innovation and learning. That does not however mean that it is the only place of origin where bellydance is concerned. Influence does not = creation and everything I find indicates a concurrent rather then an individual creation where "bellydance" is concerned.

I understand what you are saying, but once again, I think part of the problem here is terminology. Exactly how are we defining this term "Belly Dance"? It has to be noted that this is a name and perhaps even a concept that is not native to the regions in question. From my erspective I think that the term is one created by westerners who lumped all the torso centric dances of North Africa and the Eastern Mediterranean in one basket with their own names, Danse du ventre and in English Belly Dance, not knowing or caring about the individual differences between them. The hip centered dances of Morocco are not exactly the same as the hip centered dances of Egypt which are again not the same as the one found in Turkey. The Greeks all acknowledge that they received their version from the Turks.

From looking at it, it seems to me that if we are talking about the theatrical style of dance, then we are for the most part talking about Egypt and the development of Raks Sharki. With regards to Turkey, they have their own version, which I believe was influenced by what was happening in Egypt, in terms of costuming at least. They still owned Egypt in a sense at the time and therefore were not unaware of the trends happening there. There was a lot of borowing from their Arab subjects in terms of music etc. So then the question is where was the epicenter? My belief based on what can be observed today of the folk roots is that it is by and large an African variant which spread to the neighboring regions of Western Asia.

If you look at the dances of Turkey, we see that the overwhelming number of
their folk dances are leg intensive, particularly line and circle dances. The torso centered dance therefore stands out as an anomoly. The dances of North Africa on the other hand all have a major representation of hip driven dances. Now, looking at the extended Asian continent, do we see a strong tendancy towards hip centered dances? No, we don't. However, when we look at the African continent, we see that the articulation of the hips is a common theme all throughout the continent. Most striking are the dances of Central and East Africa. When we look at that, we see a pattern that extends from Congo and Uganda, all along the East Africa coast and turning west across North Africa. Therefore, it must be assumed that the area which displays the greatest amount of variety on a theme must be the epicenter because we find that the farther away from the continent we go, the less common the articulation of that part of the body is. Therefore, the dances of North Africa are native to the continent and each region has their own variation on this mode of expression. They are not all one in the same, nor are they interchangable. It is due to our Eurocentric tendancy to separtate Africa into north and south, and our ignorance of how they are interconnected culturally and historically that is partly to blame for this misunderstanding. Its why even though Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Lybia and Egypt are located on the African continent that we find it easier to look to Asia for the origins of their native dances rather than looking to the continent they are a part of, not only geographically but genetically as well. North Africans are Africans. They are just as African as the Massai or any other group and therefore, it should come as no surprise that they also share other cultural traits with their neighbors as well.

Now this doesn' mean that they were all living under rocks. When I look at the dances, or the way people across North Africa express themselves in movement I do see Asiatic influences, but those elements are in the way they use the arms and hands. These are elements that can be observed all across Anatolia into Central Asia and beyond. In fact, the fluid movements of the hands is a comon theme all across Asia in general, but the variation we see in north Africa is most similar to that found in Central and Western Asia which is the part of the continent that has interacted with it most consistantly.

So what we have here if we want to go back year 1 BC is a core that is by and large native to the African continent spreading to its neighbors in Western Asia. We also have elements originating in Asia spreadind west from Central Asia to Western Asia and into North Africa. Exactly when and how it happened is not important. All speculations of Gypsies, mother goddeses, fertility rituals etc are not needed to explain it. They may make interesting marketing but are not based in the realities of any of the cultures of the region today. Why can't we just accept it how and for what it is to the people it came from today? Why isn't that legitimacy enough?

 

[goddessyasaman]

Well i suppose the crux of the issue here is that you need to define what you mean by the term Belly Dance. In my opinion, it is a term that was invented in the west to describe the native torso intesive dances of north Africa, particularly, and the theatrical version that developed in Egypt in the early 20th century.

As for evidence of it coming from another place, what evidence is there beyond speculation by western enthusiasts? I've not come across anything.




Yes, but if that were to happen then we would loose the very thing that has driven its popularity and that is almost universal accesability. Other dance forms such as Ballet etc are very exclusionary as practitioners must study for years, conform to certain physical standards and must audition for performance opportunities. I don't think the majority of people would want to see that happen because that level of success would mean their exclusion.

Yes there is evidence if you really study into it, but you see I'm not talking only about the west after all who would only listen to the west when they would be the first to take something and clam it as thier own as if they made it... let's not get into that

I don't think it would be bad for "belly dance" and that was a good point you bought up about the name this is what I was saying in part, it has been more or less renamed as it hit france I believe this is where this term came from first "Belly dance" and so into the good old west. But you see I'm not saying that in order for it to become a true art form that we all will have to be 0 body fat and stop dancing when we hit our late 20's, I think a great point for our style is that there is no age or weight barrier, or at least I like to think so, yet the more you get into the pro area, from what I have seen weight and age become more an issue the deeper you get, so one must ask one self is it really to different to fit in? Yes and no, "Belly dance" is a modern dance yet the sexually theme holds it back it seems.

 

[goddessyasaman]

So what we have here if we want to go back year 1 BC is a core that is by and large native to the African continent spreading to its neighbors in Western Asia. We also have elements originating in Asia spreadind west from Central Asia to Western Asia and into North Africa. Exactly when and how it happened is not important. All speculations of Gypsies, mother goddeses, fertility rituals etc are not needed to explain it. They may make interesting marketing but are not based in the realities of any of the cultures of the region today. Why can't we just accept it how and for what it is to the people it came from today? Why isn't that legitimacy enough?

I can only say that history matters, when teaching a artform no matter what it is history is a key point.

 

[Jane]

History of belly dance. Lordy, a can of worms opened again!

I really think there are two ways to look at this issue. One is Modern Oriental Dance aka Raqs Sharqi. We can place it firmly in the clubs of Cairo with a darned good date and Badia Masabni and her fellow club owners creating the modern incarnation. Raqs Sharqi is a modern dance perfected in Egypt where it is still evolving. Not too many folks are going to argue this.

The other way to look at it is from the pre-Badia historical development angle. Of course Badia M. and the Cairo club owners didn't pull this dance out of their back pockets, but I think seeing this as a black and white issue is too limiting.

Honestly, I'm not seeing the Rom being the originators of this dance being a credible position at all. 'Fessing up right now that Rom dance is not my specialty. From what I've observed, Rom dancers commonly pick up the local dances of the region they are living in and mix it with their own styles. It is very possible they were participants in spreading the "belly dance" diaspora, but not the originators. Wasn't it the ninth century or so when the diaspora started? I'm sure a lot of the music and dance has changed dramatically during all that time and travel.

We have tantalizing written snip-its of historical information about dances that could be similar to belly dance. No videos before Edison. We have static dancers frozen in time, with no way to tell what music they were dancing to at that moment, and no idea how they could have been moving at that second. Only a pose. Yes, we have historical music, but no way to connect it directly to the movement before video. Oral tradition and native musical interpretation are all we have to go on.

From what I've found, this dance evolved from a mix of torso/hip based dances from the Near, Middle East and North Africa. Throughout the region there are variations of torso/hip based dances. Turkish Changi to Ghawazee to Ouled Nail etc. In each direction you travel, the dance fades and blends into the dances of another culture i.e. Persian, Indian, Nubian to Rajasthani. It doesn't suddenly stop at a specific place, it morphs organically.

The political boarders we know today have changed constantly. Mamluks, Seljuks, Saladin's Kingdom, Mongols, Ottomans, Mughuls, Sasanidis, Arabian Caliphate, Persians and European colonialism; empires and cultures have come and gone. It's the crossroads of the world. This dance developed naturally and had a unique flavor in many places at different times.

Trying to credit the development of this dance to one ethnic group, at a specific time, is like nailing jello to a tree.

 

[Ariadne]

:lol: Have you nailed Jello to any tree's lately?

"From what I've found, this dance evolved from a mix of torso/hip based dances from the Near, Middle East and North Africa. Throughout the region there are variations of torso/hip based dances. Turkish Changi to Ghawazee to Ouled Nail etc. In each direction you travel, the dance fades and blends into the dances of another culture i.e. Persian, Indian, Nubian to Rajasthani. It doesn't suddenly stop at a specific place, it morphs organically."​

I love how you put that, it's almost poetical.

From looking at it, it seems to me that if we are talking about the theatrical style of dance, then we are for the most part talking about Egypt and the development of Raks Sharki. With regards to Turkey, they have their own version, which I believe was influenced by what was happening in Egypt, in terms of costuming at least. They still owned Egypt in a sense at the time and therefore were not unaware of the trends happening there. There was a lot of borowing from their Arab subjects in terms of music etc. So then the question is where was the epicenter? My belief based on what can be observed today of the folk roots is that it is by and large an African variant which spread to the neighboring regions of Western Asia.

Exactly, they had their own version that was influenced by Egypt, it is also possible Egypt was influenced by Turkey. I've looked into the history there and Turkey did not own Egypt by the time of the development of modern bellydance but Egypt was rather in the middle of reasserting their identity separate from Britian as they always have throughout history in similar situations. In fact both areas seem to be in the middle of independent cultural revolutions involving a great deal of pride in past heritage.

Where was the epicenter? I am hardly an expert but it appears that there was more then one epicenter. This dance was so popular at the time that there appears to be an epicenter anywhere there was a strong cultural center. The two big ones of course were Egypt and Turkey, perhaps that is why they are still so dominant. I suspect that there was also once an epicenter in Algeria but that the French Government regulated it out of existence (personal opinion). I pray the same thing doesn't happen in Egypt.

Now this doesn' mean that they were all living under rocks. When I look at the dances, or the way people across North Africa express themselves in movement I do see Asiatic influences, but those elements are in the way they use the arms and hands. These are elements that can be observed all across Anatolia into Central Asia and beyond. In fact, the fluid movements of the hands is a comon theme all across Asia in general, but the variation we see in north Africa is most similar to that found in Central and Western Asia which is the part of the continent that has interacted with it most consistantly.

Exactly, this appears to be a case of a mingling of cultures and dances. Nor is it necessary to go as far back as 1BC to find a reason for such a mingling when we have a government that in the 17th century encompassed all the area's that you are citing as possible original sources.

Exactly when and how it happened is not important. All speculations of Gypsies, mother goddeses, fertility rituals etc are not needed to explain it. They may make interesting marketing but are not based in the realities of any of the cultures of the region today.

In THAT we can wholeheartedly agree. Fantasies can be fun but please don't forget that they are indeed a fantasy.

Why can't we just accept it how and for what it is to the people it came from today? Why isn't that legitimacy enough?

Ohhhh, what a great subject to threadjack with. Why are people so attracted to the "Gypsies, mother goddeses, fertility rituals etc"? History is so much fun already as it is, why not accept it?

 

[Tarik Sultan]

History of belly dance. Lordy, a can of worms opened again!

I really think there are two ways to look at this issue. One is Modern Oriental Dance aka Raqs Sharqi. We can place it firmly in the clubs of Cairo with a darned good date and Badia Masabni and her fellow club owners creating the modern incarnation. Raqs Sharqi is a modern dance perfected in Egypt where it is still evolving. Not too many folks are going to argue this.

The other way to look at it is from the pre-Badia historical development angle. Of course Badia M. and the Cairo club owners didn't pull this dance out of their back pockets, but I think seeing this as a black and white issue is too limiting.

Honestly, I'm not seeing the Rom being the originators of this dance being a credible position at all. 'Fessing up right now that Rom dance is not my specialty. From what I've observed, Rom dancers commonly pick up the local dances of the region they are living in and mix it with their own styles. It is very possible they were participants in spreading the "belly dance" diaspora, but not the originators. Wasn't it the ninth century or so when the diaspora started? I'm sure a lot of the music and dance has changed dramatically during all that time and travel.

We have tantalizing written snip-its of historical information about dances that could be similar to belly dance. No videos before Edison. We have static dancers frozen in time, with no way to tell what music they were dancing to at that moment, and no idea how they could have been moving at that second. Only a pose. Yes, we have historical music, but no way to connect it directly to the movement before video. Oral tradition and native musical interpretation are all we have to go on.

From what I've found, this dance evolved from a mix of torso/hip based dances from the Near, Middle East and North Africa. Throughout the region there are variations of torso/hip based dances. Turkish Changi to Ghawazee to Ouled Nail etc. In each direction you travel, the dance fades and blends into the dances of another culture i.e. Persian, Indian, Nubian to Rajasthani. It doesn't suddenly stop at a specific place, it morphs organically.

The political boarders we know today have changed constantly. Mamluks, Seljuks, Saladin's Kingdom, Mongols, Ottomans, Mughuls, Sasanidis, Arabian Caliphate, Persians and European colonialism; empires and cultures have come and gone. It's the crossroads of the world. This dance developed naturally and had a unique flavor in many places at different times.

Trying to credit the development of this dance to one ethnic group, at a specific time, is like nailing jello to a tree.

I think a major problem is trying to lump everything into one basket. We constantly refer to "this dance" was here there and everywhere, when in fact what we should be saying is "these dances". The main problem here is that we still do not know what we are talking about and what is what. If we are going to talk about where "belly dance" came from we first have to determine what it is exactly that we are talking about. There are several dances that are based on the movements of the hips and torso all across Africa, remembering that the North is also part of the continent. They are not all identical, nor are they interchangable. We can say that for the most part the articulation of this part of the body is a common theme across Africa, but to call them all "belly dance", is to mosh things together in a way that ignores their actual cultural and historical identities. That is why we have to be specific. Moroccan Shabbi is not Raks Sharki and Raks Sharki is not Kabyli, and Kabyli is not Ghawazee, (althouth they actually hate being called that, nor do they cal their dance that) and none of them are Turkish Rom nor is Turkish Rom Kocheck. They all have their distinct identities, but we apply the term Belly dance to all of them steam rolling out their unique characters and in the process destroying that which we proclaim to be attempting to preserve.

I think it does far better to speak of Raks Sharki as a theatrical dance developed from the local Egyptian dance in the 20th century and to acknowledge that that in turn created dance forms in the USA and Europe that were inspired by it and variations that also developed in Turkey in the 20th century. That is the most accurate and honest answer that there is and quite honestly, we don't need to go delving into the unknown depths of history to validate it. Claiming something is 20,000 yrs old doesn't make it any more legitimate than something that is only 20yrs old. Again, why isn't it enough just as it is? What we see on the stages and nightclubs today is something quite recent and easily documented. Its roots are old, that we know for sure. How old? There's no way to know, but that is of little importance. What is of importnce is that it is a powerful expression of the human spirit just as deep as any other artistic expression in the world. That is plain to see and easily proven and that alone is reason enough for why it is a legitimate art and deserves to be acknowledged and respected as such.

 

[Jane]

:lol: Have you nailed Jello to any tree's lately?

If I ever try it, I will post it on YouTube and become famous for my jello nailing instructional videos. For a few thousand dollars you can become certified in my jello nailing course and teach my method to others in both coniferous and deciduous varieties and explore several ancient and delicious warrior women flavors. :lol:

I love how you put that, it's almost poetical.

Thanks. Must be the Oxycontin

 

[Tarik Sultan]

I'm ducking out for the moment. Apparently all hell broke out in Tahrir Square as Mubarak forces opened fire on unarmed demonstrators. Reports of 5 dead over 800 injured. Anti government forces still have control of the square. Can't get through to Cairo right now. Will try again in the morning.

 

[Jane]

I think a major problem is trying to lump everything into one basket. We constantly refer to "this dance" was here there and everywhere, when in fact what we should be saying is "these dances".

I strongly agree. I like Andrea Deagon's S.I.T.A. idea. A lot of the time I just think of "belly dance" as being the umbrella term, but it's not very accurate really.

The main problem here is that we still do not know what we are talking about and what is what. If we are going to talk about where "belly dance" came from we first have to determine what it is exactly that we are talking about. There are several dances that are based on the movements of the hips and torso all across Africa, remembering that the North is also part of the continent. They are not all identical, nor are they interchangable. We can say that for the most part the articulation of this part of the body is a common theme across Africa, but to call them all "belly dance", is to mosh things together in a way that ignores their actual cultural and historical identities. That is why we have to be specific.

Agreed. It's drawing the line historically, culturally, and geographically that makes it so difficult.

Moroccan Shabbi is not Raks Sharki and Raks Sharki is not Kabyli, and Kabyli is not Ghawazee, (althouth they actually hate being called that, nor do they cal their dance that) and none of them are Turkish Rom nor is Turkish Rom Kocheck. They all have their distinct identities, but we apply the term Belly dance to all of them steam rolling out their unique characters and in the process destroying that which we proclaim to be attempting to preserve.

True. I need to start using that SITA term, unless there is a better phrase for the Oriental torso/hip based dance family.

I think it does far better to speak of Raks Sharki as a theatrical dance developed from the local Egyptian dance in the 20th century and to acknowledge that that in turn created dance forms in the USA and Europe that were inspired by it and variations that also developed in Turkey in the 20th century.

No arguments on that from me.

That is the most accurate and honest answer that there is and quite honestly, we don't need to go delving into the unknown depths of history to validate it. Claiming something is 20,000 yrs old doesn't make it any more legitimate than something that is only 20yrs old. Again, why isn't it enough just as it is? What we see on the stages and nightclubs today is something quite recent and easily documented. Its roots are old, that we know for sure. How old? There's no way to know, but that is of little importance.

I agree that age does not equal validation. Raqs Sharqi is not a valid art form because of it's age: it is a valid art form because it's communication of emotion from the artist to the audience. It's fine just as it is. No argument there.

I don't agree that the heritage or roots of Raqs Sharpi is "of little importance". Discussion and serious research of the heritage of our modern dance form combats misinformation. Let's face it: it's rampant and breeds misunderstanding, and IMHO, a lot of it is racist orientalism propagated by dancers capitalizing on fantasy and ignorance for marketing. Even when we admit we don't know all the answers, it's better than some dancers who make up nonsense or ignore the roots of the dance. I know you aren't one of those Tarik, so maybe I misunderstood your meaning.

 

[Jane]

I'm ducking out for the moment. Apparently all hell broke out in Tahrir Square as Mubarak forces opened fire on unarmed demonstrators. Reports of 5 dead over 800 injured. Anti government forces still have control of the square. Can't get through to Cairo right now. Will try again in the morning.

This is horrible. I hope the violence ends soon. I'm going to go check the news now.

 

[seona]

Aziyade made a good point earlier that people assume ancient Egypt = modern Egypt.
I agree that bdance as we know it came from Egypt, we can pinpoint that. But before that who knows? I've read hot debates before and people have Argued over ancient bdance, when really no one knows it's impossible to tell!
I don't have a view on ancient dance as I don't know. But bdance as far as I'm concerned came from Egypt! I think most of us here agree that!

,

 

[goddessyasaman]

Aziyade made a good point earlier that people assume ancient Egypt = modern Egypt.
I agree that bdance as we know it came from Egypt, we can pinpoint that. But before that who knows? I've read hot debates before and people have Argued over ancient bdance, when really no one knows it's impossible to tell!
I don't have a view on ancient dance as I don't know. But bdance as far as I'm concerned came from Egypt! I think most of us here agree that!

,

But you see it's not a point as to "as far as I'm concerned" This is how so many think it seems and in that so many care not to learn these days. does anyone know the term "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it" I for one wish to learn all I can about the things I do in life.

Look all I am saying is how does no one see the importance here and also do we just give up on learning because it's hard? I for one say no.

I have an example; I am native american and I'm sure most know my peoples history, yet there maybe ones that don't, let's say the way to learn about native americans history was by watching Cowboy movies :shok: everyone would start to believe the way the movies show and not the true history but pieces of it, and the people who were learning said well "as far as I'm concerned this is how it was" even thou there was hidden truth that it may not be. So should the true history of something be thrown away or only half looked at because we like it like it is now and thats all there should be?

Either way I hope the people who are in this art give a care to all it's history even more so when teaching someone. If it comes down to no one will ever know for sure then thats the way it must be, but let that be for the reason that we gave it a try.ray:

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I agree with Tarik that the movements that make up the foundation of SITA do appear to have more in common with South and East African dances than those of Central Asia or Asia Minor.

Scott Marcus makes an interesting comment about Saidi music, however, in that the musicians use a lot of Turkish (or Turkic language) words to describe their instruments and some kinds of music. Apparently there are quite a few loan words from Turkish in the Arab musician's vocabulary.

I'm not sure that can be considered evidence in proving any point, but it's an interesting observation.


Before you judge him too harshly, Tarik has seen dozens and dozens of very long-winded arguments on the specific origins of bellydance. When you've heard all the arguments, and you've seen how off-track things can get, you can understand his reluctance to engage in a big debate on the prehistoric origins. We're not teaching or performing pre-historic bellydance; we're teaching a modern, post-Casino Opera version of it. So I can understand him saying the history "doesn't matter" -- for theoretical debate it does, but for the practical application of the dance today, it does not.