Saidi or Dabke?

[nouraki]

That's the reason why I Love BELLY DANCE FORUM!!!!

:clap:

 

[NormaW]

Saidi and Debke are two distinct things. Saidi is an Egyptian folkloric dance, using the saidi rhythm, originally done by men as a stick dance but adapted by female dancers as a cane (assaya) dance in stage shows.


YouTube - Saidi show in Indiana 2006 by Mohamed Shahin

YouTube - yasmina of cairo Saidi dance
YouTube - Classical lebanese belly dancer: Amar Kamel (1)
YouTube - Fifi Cane routine


Debke is a line dance and their are different versions depending on what ME country you are from. However, in the belly dance world, the Lebanese debke (nawari rhythm) reigns supreme. It can sound similar to the saidi rhythm, depending on how it is played. Drummers can often fill in beats or leave out beats sometimes making it difficult to distinguish rhythms if you aren't very familar with both intimately. It is very common for Lebanese style dancers to dance to cane using debke music instead of saidi. I worked for years in a Lebanese club and I preferred debke music myself for cane. It has a higher energy then saidi in my opinion.

YouTube - Hwida el Hachem .Belly Danse.????? ?????? ???? ????????
YouTube - Howaida Hashem (green bedlah) Pt 2

 

[Greek Bonfire]

That's right - let's not be too hard on ourselves which is the reason we are here! I'm learning all the time, and the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know. This thread has been very educational for me.

 

[Farasha Hanem]

That's right - let's not be too hard on ourselves which is the reason we are here! I'm learning all the time, and the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know. This thread has been very educational for me.

Thank you, Bonfire, I so needed that, more than you know. *hugs*

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Thank you, Bonfire, I so needed that, more than you know. *hugs*

:yay: BIG HUGS! :yay:

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I just had a workshop on Palestinian debke, which made my brain explode because the rhythm isn't the same. It was pretty obvious from the music that it was different from the familiar Lebanese debke, but similar enough to be confusing.

Debke threads give me a headache. I can always hear the different rhythms when it's just the drum, but when you get a creative drummer, or the whole band is playing, things just get crazy.

 

[NormaW]

I just had a workshop on Palestinian debke, which made my brain explode because the rhythm isn't the same. It was pretty obvious from the music that it was different from the familiar Lebanese debke, but similar enough to be confusing.

Debke threads give me a headache. I can always hear the different rhythms when it's just the drum, but when you get a creative drummer, or the whole band is playing, things just get crazy.

That's what makes it so much fun!

 

[Yame]

That's what makes it so much fun!

Exactly!

 

[shiradotnet]

I just had a workshop on Palestinian debke, which made my brain explode because the rhythm isn't the same. It was pretty obvious from the music that it was different from the familiar Lebanese debke, but similar enough to be confusing.

Debke threads give me a headache. I can always hear the different rhythms when it's just the drum, but when you get a creative drummer, or the whole band is playing, things just get crazy.

Well, one thing to consider is that "debke" is NOT defined by rhythm alone. If rhythm is the criterion you're trying to use, it's no wonder you have a headache! While it's true that certain rhythms are frequently associated with debke, there's no "rule" that says a certain song must use a certain rhythm in order to be considered a debke.

Often, we dancers fall into the trap of trying to set rules that say, "We do Dance X to Rhythm X, and we do Dance Y to Rhythm Y," when actually it's not so cut and dried in the culture these dances come from. It's okay to teach "do these steps/moves when you hear Rhythm X" in the classroom, as a tool to help students begin to understand musical interpretation. However, part of our development as dancers must include outgrowing the simple-to-describe "rules" and learn the musical/cultural nuances that are hard to articulate in words.

To use an Egyptian example (since many people find that more familiar with Levantine music/dance), some Saidi music utilizes the rhythm we call "Saidi" (with a single doom at the beginning and a double doom in the middle), but other Saidi music utilizes the rhythm we would normally call "fellahin".

 

[HubicRuzz]

I have spent some time pondering this question over the years. First because in Sydney I noticed dancers will dance Saidi to Dabke music in Lebanese nightclubs for a Lebanese audience, which didn't make sense. Secondly when Issam Houshan once told me that it is common for dancers in BDSS audition not to know the difference between the Saidi and Nawari rhythms.

I think a lot of confusion happens because mordern dabke music, like for Fares Karam, uses a Saidi rhythm on studio albums. I suspect this is to make it more appealing to Arab markets outside of Lebanon as Saidi is a generic rhythm used in Arabic pop music.

If you listen to Fare Karam live you will actually hear Nawari being played all night.

YouTube - Fares Karam Sydney Australia Live


Also from what I have been told, the reason dancers still generally do dance Saidi style to Dabke music for a Lebanese audience is because before modern Lebanese dancers created a Lebanese Raqs Sharki style like Amani and Samira, dancers in Lebanon generally danced Egyptian style.

Anyway my tips for telling the difference if you don't understand Arabic.

If you hear a modern piece of music and can't tell the difference between Saidi and Dabke, it's probably Dabke 99% of the time. My theory is because Dabke is a social dance performed at big gatherings so the music crossed over into mainstream. Saidi is generally only done in a traditional folkoric style and ordinary people don't dance to it. Egyptians are more likely to dance to Baladi or Shaabi music.

If you are comparing very traditional Saidi and Dabke music it is generally straight forward. The traditional dabke won't use the Saidi rhythm if it is in 4/4. In Saidi, there is normally a Mizmar taqsim introduction, you may also hear a rabarb. The Lebanese woodwind instrument is the mejwez and has a different sound.

 

[Yame]

YouTube - Fares Karam Sydney Australia Live

This is my favorite Fares Karam song, but I had only ever heard the studio version. Oh man, this live version is even HOTTER!

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Yame, this is my favorite by Fares too!

While I'm not an expert, I do hear a difference between debke and saiidi, even when Fares Karam is singing it. And I agree that we do tend to put rhythms and music in boxes. Then I learned Tsamiko and it didn't fit into anything I ever did before. In fact, it is totally different from other Greek music - I think it is the Greek version of debke, but I had fun learning the difference.

Just when it gets boring, then a thread like this comes along...

 

[gisela]

A lot of interesting information in this thread, I need to go through it and hear all the examples. I must admit that my knowledge of dabke is almost non existent. It is not very common here in our bellydance community. Maybe that is what is missing?!

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

If you are comparing traditional Saidi and Dabke music it is generally straight forward. The traditional dabke won't use the Saidi rhythm if it is in 4/4. In Saidi, there is normally a Mizmar taqsim introduction, you may also hear a rabarb. The Lebanese woodwind instrument is the mejwez and has a different sound.

This is pretty much how I decide -- there is a debke "sound" that is unlike the sound of Saidi. And the singers I've heard often yell "hup" or something on the upbeat.

What makes me bonkers is the endless arguments over the rhythm. I remember you quoting Issam once before, and that's what I was referring to. I can hear the difference between nawari and saidi RHYTHMS just fine when it's one drum. But get a band together and I can't tell at all.

There seems to be a certain "prejudice" (maybe the Bellydance Police) against dancers who can't automatically identify a rhythm. Just like in the BDSS. We've even HAD those threads (the "I can't believe she didn't acknowledge the Saidi part in that music" threads.) Leaves one to be a little paranoid of doing it "wrong."

"Tannoura" sounded more pop to me, rather than Saidi or Debke, but now "Shaskin" (Ya Ein Moulatin) I actually learned as a Turkish folk dance before I ever heard it in the bellydance context.

Shira -- good points. Thinking of the WHOLE instead of pulling apart pieces makes the overall dance/piece of music make more sense. Still there's always a smartass in the Youtube audience who has to comment one way or the other on somebody's performance of Tannoura, and thus that paranoia thing hits again.

Personally, I'm going to choreograph a Tribal-style finger cymbal piece to that song and be COMPLETELY inappropriate!

 

[Greek Bonfire]

This is pretty much how I decide -- there is a debke "sound" that is unlike the sound of Saidi. And the singers I've heard often yell "hup" or something on the upbeat.

I have recently been listening to more debke lately and have noticed this myself, the "hup" or even "hup-hup" sound.

 

[Yame]

Shira -- good points. Thinking of the WHOLE instead of pulling apart pieces makes the overall dance/piece of music make more sense. Still there's always a smartass in the Youtube audience who has to comment one way or the other on somebody's performance of Tannoura, and thus that paranoia thing hits again.

What's really annoying is that you can actually know your stuff, do your research, but always someone is going to be a smartass about something you do, if not because you know less than they do, then because you know something they don't know and they think you're "doing it wrong" out of sheer ignorance.

Case in point: if you don't know dabke and confuse a dabke song for Saidi, then dance it as Saidi, those who know more than you might look down on you for not knowing any better.

But maybe you do know dabke, you do know it's not Saidi, and you know you can do cane/stick dance to dabke music because you've seen plenty of Lebanese dancers themselves doing it, so you go out there and you rock out with your stick out to some mean Ya Ain Moulayetin... you know *someone* out there is going to snicker at you for doing cane to a dabke song, because in their minds dabke is a line dance and GOD FORBID someone does anything other than a line dance to dabke music, or because in their minds cane is used for Saidi only and the idea that any place other than Egypt might have its own cane dances is totally and completely beyond them.

There is no sense in being paranoid. Keep learning, do what you love, and do the best you can do. No matter what you do, no matter whether you are "right" or "wrong," someone out there will find fault with it, because there is always a smartass out there who thinks they know more than you do (whether or not they actually do) and who thinks they are better than you for it. Don't let people like that slow down your journey.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Yame, you are sooooooooooooooooooooooo right, word for word.

 

[shiradotnet]

I have spent some time pondering this question over the years. First because in Sydney I noticed dancers will dance Saidi to Dabke music in Lebanese nightclubs for a Lebanese audience, which didn't make sense. Secondly when Issam Houshan once told me that it is common for dancers in BDSS audition not to know the difference between the Saidi and Nawari rhythms.

Warning: rant about to begin.

I find Issam's comment to be rather annoying, honestly.

In the first place, it's possible to dance to a rhythm without knowing what name to call it.

In the second place, in the 4/4 rhythms that are part of the maqsoum family (nawari, baladi, Saidi, etc.), the dancer's musical interpretation is going to be shaped mostly by how the song as a whole, with ALL instruments, is scored, rather than by the subtle nuances of where there's a DOOM and where there's a TEK. Percussion may be important, but so is melody line, whether the melody line is being played by a mizmar or a violin, etc. For example, not every Saidi rhythm in every song should be interpreted by leaping about like a wild woman.

In the third place, different arrangements of a song may feature different drum rhythms depending on the mood of the arranger. For example, I have an arrangement of Nibtidi Mneen al-Hikaya that uses ayyoub in a place where a different arrangement uses walking maqsoum.

Now, I have a strong musical background, and I DO think music is a very integral element of our dance. So I'm not dismissing the importance of learning as much as we can about music. But I think it's mean-spirited of a drummer to make disparaging remarks about dancers simply because they don't know his craft as well as he himself knows it.

 

[seona]

but now "Shaskin" (Ya Ein Moulatin) I actually learned as a Turkish folk dance before I ever heard it in the bellydance context.

Lol! I've read before the disagreement's over that particular piece of music on the youtube comments!

I am interested in this thread from a percussion point of view, and it;s really interesting, great topic.

 

[HubicRuzz]

I came across this random clip today and was trying to figure out why I picked it as a dabke tune, or at very least Lebanese. It starts off with a wahada rhythm then Saidi ghawazee.

I think the choir "chanting" is very distinctively Lebanese. Then of course there was the grunting from time to time.

YouTube - Laura Khalil - Alla la ye7remni menak 2011