Sleeves?

[Erik]

I have been told that I will not be chastised for my non-bellydancer lack of knowledge, and now is perhaps the time to put it to the test. I only know what I see on the Internet. For years I thought a panel skirt and a circle skirt were different, but now I'm not so sure. When I introduced myself I said that I was interested in costuming, but more correctly I am interested in costuming trends, in particular why certain costume elements have fallen in or out of favor over the years. On another thread a dancer expressed her dislike for armbands or sleeves. [I am presuming she meant those loose-fitting sleeves and not gauntlets.] I called them harem sleeves as a name of convenience, and I'm going out on a limb to say that I liked them, but since the 1970's they seem to have gone the way of the 8-track tape and are seldom seen anymore. Were they too feminine? Too cheesey? Too haremy? Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated, and please remember that I am a poor dummy who walked into this room whithout a clue.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

I think costuming goes the way of all fashion - in and out, and retro as well. I personally love sleeves and I still see them around. They can get in the way, however, with veils, Isis wings, even swords, if they are the sleeves I think you are referring to, which are flowing and even hang down so to speak. Some dancers hate gauntlets and armbands as well but many dancers use them a lot because, again, it is their fashion preference. I also use arm bands to, er, keep some things in their place <LOL>

 

[Erik]

Thanks, Greek Bonfire. The ones I am thinking of are like tubes made of matching fabric to the skirt and with elastic at both ends, worn at the wrist and just above the elbow. I agree that they wouldn't work very well with the props you named, but just for basic belly dancing and playing the finger cymbals I thought they worked nicely. Thank you very much for your reply.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Thanks, Greek Bonfire. The ones I am thinking of are like tubes made of matching fabric to the skirt and with elastic at both ends, worn at the wrist and just above the elbow. I agree that they wouldn't work very well with the props you named, but just for basic belly dancing and playing the finger cymbals I thought they worked nicely. Thank you very much for your reply.

I would also call those gauntlets and I have worn that style as well. And they look great with finger cymbals (or zills as they are also called), as well as without. I've seen many other dancers using these as well. Of course, I think sometimes that when a dancer has a longer time slot, these sleeves may just get too warm, which is why some dancers may not like wearing them.

 

[Erik]

Zills in Turkish. Sagat in Arabic. Finger cymbals in English. And two pairs make a set if I am not mistaken. [Okay, I admit it. I'm not a complete dummy as I alluded. A complete dummy would have called them those little jingling things that belly dancers wear on their fingers.]

I think of gauntlets as being tight-fitting, masculine, military. There is a dancer on Tribe.net and her avatar is a photo of her wearing the loose-fitting ones. I have never asked her about them, but she is in Alaska where temperature would probably not be much of a factor, so maybe you have something there.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Okay, I'm getting you now. I have never heard any dancers disliking those sleeves. I also have never worn those myself but I do like them.

LOL - you really know more than you let on. Maybe you will teach me a thing or two yourself!

 

[Erik]

LOL - you really know more than you let on. Maybe you will teach me a thing or two yourself!

Hopefully, Greek Bonfire. I hate to simply take and not give. And I do have a propensity for noticing things which others don't notice, so my sincere hope is that I can earn my keep here with those things which I know in exchange for answers to the things that I don't know.

 

[Farasha Hanem]

I have a pair of pink lace sleeves that are kind of loose, otherwise, two of my costumes have the tight-fitting sleeves. One costume is maroon with matching sleeves that end in bell-like cuffs at the wrists (you can check it out if you like in my profile page), and the other is a Turkish green dress with just one tight-fitting sleeve that has a ring at the end to attach to my finger.

Personally, I like sleeves, but have a hard time finding them that fit properly because my arms are skinny.

 

[Erik]

Thanks Farasha. I went to your profile. Very nice costumes. Perhaps sleeves are coming back in style and I just hadn't noticed yet. Been very busy last several years and I haven't had TV since 2006, but I seem to remember a time, beginning in the 1990's I think, when they practically disappeared, and all the belly dancers I saw on TV were either wearing bracelets or gauntlets. Since I gained access to the Internet in 2004 I have seen thousands of dancer photos from many countries, and the ones wearing sleeves have stood out because there were so few of them. I could not help wondering if there was an underlying reason for this, or did it simply get played out for a while.

I've observed that the US has a need to reinvent itself every ten years, and everything from the previous decade becomes garbage, but strangely something from two decades earlier isn't garbage anymore. It's vintage!

I hope I haven't made myself look too silly by asking this question, as there are certainly much more important issues going on in the world, but details like these have a way of prying on me as time goes by.

 

[Daimona]

Ah, this thread just reminded me of Dina's Bellydance Costume Galleries and her books on arm costumes...

I seem to remember a time, beginning in the 1990's I think, when they practically disappeared, and all the belly dancers I saw on TV were either wearing bracelets or gauntlets. Since I gained access to the Internet in 2004 I have seen thousands of dancer photos from many countries, and the ones wearing sleeves have stood out because there were so few of them. I could not help wondering if there was an underlying reason for this, or did it simply get played out for a while.

The main reason is probably personal preferences.
I have a personal theory that the big "harem sleeves" (I like that name) kind of disappeared when the lycra/spandex era arrived, as they wouldn't match a fitted spandex costume without chiffon. But with costumes made from a mix of spandex and chiffon, chiffony sleeves/gauntlets are coming back both as a retro thing and in new ways.

From what I've observed, a relatively recent trend is detachable sleeves that are attached behind the neck (this goes for sleeves/gauntlets made of both chiffon and spandex), such as the models "Double Vision", "Legacy" and "Enigma" at Dahlal Internationale : Welcome!.


On the other side, a trend I haven't seen is a while is the use of crocheted fishnet gauntlets..

I've observed that the US has a need to reinvent itself every ten years, and everything from the previous decade becomes garbage, but strangely something from two decades earlier isn't garbage anymore. It's vintage!

Isn't this the life of fashion in general?

 

[PracticalDancer]

I love sleeves! They can change up the look of a costume in seconds and hide "Southern Woman's Syndrome" (a.k.a. floppy tricep area) nicely. But, my personal hypothesis is that they have fallen out of favor because the top arm band is one costume item that must be fitted perfectly, and so few dancers sew these days. You have to have the band tight, or else the darned things flop down. And, it is not something you can fake out easily with safety pins. There are tricks, but, you have to still get the fit pretty close. Since it is such an unforgiving garment (it's not like a bra or belt that can have 1 to 5 inches of overlap on the closure), it is harder to fit and therefore to resell.

But, I love 'em, have 'em, make 'em, make 'em fit, and use 'em!

 

[Daimona]

But, my personal hypothesis is that they have fallen out of favor because the top arm band is one costume item that must be fitted perfectly, and so few dancers sew these days. You have to have the band tight, or else the darned things flop down. And, it is not something you can fake out easily with safety pins. There are tricks, but, you have to still get the fit pretty close. Since it is such an unforgiving garment (it's not like a bra or belt that can have 1 to 5 inches of overlap on the closure), it is harder to fit and therefore to resell.

Good point!

 

[Erik]

Thanks, Daimona. I would not have thought of that, but it makes good sense.

Anala, I can say with all honesty that the Southern Woman's Syndrome never crossed my mind recently, but now that you mention it I did once wonder if some older dancers might have preferred sleeves for this reason. Even if I had thought of it, I couldn't bring myself to ask. Thanks.

 

[Daimona]

Sleeves are also great for hiding tattoos..

 

[goddessyasaman]

I like sleeves as well, I don't think there is anything wrong with them, they go well with the right costume, I have worn them before and I make them as well, but I guess everyone likes what they like

 

[Erik]

Thanks goddyssyasaman. If a dancer makes her own costumes, they would seem to be very easy to make from leftover material, but I'm guessing.

On YouTube I caught a glimpse of the great Samia Gamal wearing sleeves. It was for a movie role and she might not have preferred them in real life, but it told me that the concept went back to the 1950's or possibly earlier.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

We may have the right to bare arms, but like Anala said, sleeves, gauntlets, armbands, etc. hide a multitude of sins.

 

[Erik]

Greek Bonfire --- Well, I certainly support the right to bare arms.

Daimona --- I neglected to consider tattoos as well, but I have read that they don't go over very well with traditional costumes.

 

[shiradotnet]

Erik, I assume the style of sleeve you're referring to is the one I'm wearing in this photo? http://www.shira.net/shira/shirapix/anna-red-veilwrap-detail.jpg

If so, then Daimona's answer was the same as what I would give - that this particular sleeve style tends to look best with the full chiffon skirt style of costuming. That costume style isn't currently fashionable. It's not what the elite Cairo designers such as Sahar Okasha, Eman Zaki, and others are promoting, and therefore it's not what the style-conscious American dancers are seeking.

However, you'll still see designers coming up with costumes that have tighter, more fitted sleeves. For example, this photo shows me wearing a costume by Eman Zaki with the more fitted sleeves: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...et=a.228533815312.266443.136421905312&theater

 

[Erik]

Thanks Shiradotnet. I followed the link to Facebook, although Bellydanceplus isn't letting me in. I'll have to try it again when I return from work.

Actually, I went to Bellydanceplus last night. As you may remember, on Tribe I spoke on subjects of which I did not have....er...ummm....complete knowledge, and some dancers were angered, so I'm trying to avoid a repetition of that here. Thanks very much.