Instructors! Some questions.

[goddessyasaman]

Yeah. That's exactly it.

You know in todays world everyone thinks that you must learn something from some other person, this has not and is not always the truth.

Whoever was the creator of Middle eastern dance did not learn it from someone else, as things must have a start, so who is to say that you must learn from anyone, If you have the tools to learn something as you are not the creator then so be it. Who is to say that you will not be just as well learned as the person who had to learn under someone?

Now if you are learning from watching DVD instruction and videos and the like, then it may take you longer to pick up the moves then lets say a person with a one on one teacher, or it may not. Each person is different.

All I can say for the self taught Belly dancer that wishes to know her dance level is to keep practice as much as you can, the same as a Dancer with a instructor, A mirror is key when learning on your own as I'm sure you know.


I was thinking of making a program online that as you learn I give you level progression test (like I do in my Classes), but I think a live feed would be best for that where I can see you as well or have the student send in there test results in video format. I'm working on it though

 

[Shanazel]

Whoever was the creator of Middle eastern dance did not learn it from someone else, as things must have a start, so who is to say that you must learn from anyone, If you have the tools to learn something as you are not the creator then so be it. Who is to say that you will not be just as well learned as the person who had to learn under someone?

Well, me, for one. In thirty-five years of involvement in belly dance, I have never seen a completely self-taught middle eastern dancer perform with anything approaching the skill, finesse, and understanding of a dancer who learned from other dancers.

Inventing a dance style on your own is one thing. Learning an established style of dance without a teacher is another. Middle eastern dance did not just spring full-blown into being like Athena from the head of Zeus.

A teacher on dvd cannot walk around you and determine if your posture is correct. A mirror cannot show you everything you need to know about posture, position, and execution. Neither of these learning tools can pinpoint and explain to you exactly why your efforts are not resulting in the desired effect. I could go on at tedious length, but will spare everyone the pontification.

 

[jenc]

I agree. Of course new dancers who belong to the culture don't have lessons - but they are immersed in the culture and the music. They see peopple around them who dance that way and they don't have to unlearn any other way of moving or relating to music.

 

[goddessyasaman]

I understand what you are saying Shanazel, I'm not saying that this can happen for everyone only that it is not unheard of is all, I'm sure there are just to many people into belly dance to say this for a fact. I'm sure there are not many as it is taught to people that they must learn whatever the something is from someone, thats all I'm saying which does not help much

 

[Kashmir]

You know in todays world everyone thinks that you must learn something from some other person, this has not and is not always the truth.

During the Cultural Revolution the Maoist believed that too - they had people intuiting how to build bridges - lots fell down. How about learning surgery after watching lots of hospital soaps? Closer to belly dance, learning ballet by re-running a tape of Swan Lake?

Whoever was the creator of Middle eastern dance did not learn it from someone else, as things must have a start, so who is to say that you must learn from anyone

Middle Eastern Dance arose from a culture. People who do it know the music, and the language - and they grew up with hundreds of hours of close up watching and mimicing other dancers. So, no, they didn't have aunty Farida explaining how to do a hip drop - but they saw many variations over a lifetime. Same way as westernrs might learn to skip or play ball.

But the well known, the "great" dancers did have formal lessons - built on an existing movement vocab and then extended. Badia Masabni is well known for organizing this but before her Mohamed Ali Street and ghawazee dancers both served an apprenticeship under a teacher/dancer.

I won't say it is impossible to learn without guidence living outside the Middle East but it would take an incredible talent to combine the physical and cultural aspects of this dance from mere observation. The problem is you often don't know what is significant or what you are missing.

 

[goddessyasaman]

During the Cultural Revolution the Maoist believed that too - they had people intuiting how to build bridges - lots fell down. How about learning surgery after watching lots of hospital soaps? Closer to belly dance, learning ballet by re-running a tape of Swan Lake?

Middle Eastern Dance arose from a culture. People who do it know the music, and the language - and they grew up with hundreds of hours of close up watching and mimicing other dancers. So, no, they didn't have aunty Farida explaining how to do a hip drop - but they saw many variations over a lifetime. Same way as westernrs might learn to skip or play ball.

But the well known, the "great" dancers did have formal lessons - built on an existing movement vocab and then extended. Badia Masabni is well known for organizing this but before her Mohamed Ali Street and ghawazee dancers both served an apprenticeship under a teacher/dancer.

I won't say it is impossible to learn without guidence living outside the Middle East but it would take an incredible talent to combine the physical and cultural aspects of this dance from mere observation. The problem is you often don't know what is significant or what you are missing.

Come on now don't make jokes:lol: none of those are even close to what I have said. And I never said u should go look at a belly dancers performance and learn to dance, there are instructor dvds and online classes. I'm sure these are a help to someone. All the examples you used had nothing to do with learning only watching and trying to mimic, thats a bit different as there are many ways to learn on your own if you must, some people have to as they can do nothing else. They very well could learn on thier own Thats all I'm saying, as things are possible.

It will not be a easy thing for the person who learns this way, yet I'm sure it has happend and could be happening now. As the world is a big place.

 

[Shanazel]

there are instructor dvds and online classes.

And neither are decent substitutes for a real live teacher who corrects your posture and tells you that you drop your chest when you dance and warns you that trying to turn with your feet in that position will eventually wreck your knees.

True, the world is a big place and a million monkeys with typewriters might eventually reproduce the works of Shakespeare and a dvd-taught belly dancer may become the toast of Cairo, but both are long shots and so far unheard of.

 

[jenc]

At the moment I am looking at beginner dvds for review - and then my dvd player broke. I will say that there are several moves that I have seen beginners struggle with, not realising if or what they are doing wrong and in my studies I have not always seen these moves explained clearly in beginner dvds.

 

[MissVega]

I think for those who live in rural areas or areas that aren't that multicultural then one will have to think outside the box with how they learn this dance. It's not ideal and it doesn't work for everyone but you make do with what you have.

I personally have never attended a regular class, had a private lesson or had someone correct my posture etc in a workshop. Up until fall 2009 I hadn't attended any workshops. I have since then and have gone because I have liked that instructors dance style or respected what they have accomplished in this dance. The vast majority of my learning has been from watching performances and filming my practices and critiquing them myself in comparison to the performances I have watched etc.

I don't own any instructional dvds. And haven't actually ever watched one.

I'm pretty confident in my technique and am always reviewing my videos noting what needs work. I am the first to admit that there are huge gaps in my "dance education" in regards to knowledge of folklore, names of rhythms etc as those can be harder to find the resources to teach yourself. I have learned lots by reading the forums, but also acknowledge that for that sort of thing having a teacher nearby would be preferable lol. That being said I am always honest when teaching students, I am good for technique but you'll have to go beyond me if you want to learn more in regards to folklore, history etc. I still do lots of reading but am always trying to learn more but I do have limited resources available to me at this moment in my life based on where I live.

Am I perfect dancer? No. But I think I've done okay with what has been available to me.

 

[goddessyasaman]

And neither are decent substitutes for a real live teacher who corrects your posture and tells you that you drop your chest when you dance and warns you that trying to turn with your feet in that position will eventually wreck your knees.

True, the world is a big place and a million monkeys with typewriters might eventually reproduce the works of Shakespeare and a dvd-taught belly dancer may become the toast of Cairo, but both are long shots and so far unheard of.

I don't think a million monkeys could reproduce the works of shakespeare, then I don't follow the scientific studied of monkeys so i'm not sure:lol:, I'm not sure on the long shot about the belly dancer, I'm not sure if she would want to become the toast of cairo as you say, and even if there were such a belly dancer (that was self taught) we may never know of her as it seems that no one would care to see her dance if she said I am self taught,or maybe they would want to see, just to tell her you are doing that wrong. Everyone learns differently just because they have a live teacher does not mean that they will be great. And I wonder, what If she was great would people believe her about the self taught?

I understand the differents between A instructor in person and a DVD/online instructor, as I Teach belly dance, I was never saying that a student should not seekout a Instructor in person. I just never say never as everyone is different, one person could learn a belly dance move from a DVD and another persone could not, I think it still matters who the teacher is, some people don't break things down well no matter if they are in person or not.

 

[walladah]

I would agree with Shanazel

that learning from real people dancing in front of you is much better than anything else!

I can share with you my own experience: i have learned and i continue to learn in any way i can: just dancing with other people in parties where bellydance is traditional, having lessons, attending workshops, studying by using DVDs, studying by using youtube videos, etc.

However, i admit that my impression is that video technology, even in DVDs, where teachers are explaining moves, will never be able to capture the tiny particles of a movement and of the entire body posture during the movement while human eye can absorb all this information at class, even if the student is unable at the moment to reproduce the information package just received...

This is why evolution while studying with live teachers might seem same with DVDs at the beginning, but never will it be same afterwards, when the student is somehow advanced and practices alone after a class. At that stage, the information received through attending classes for some time re-appears, after the student masters some the basic moves... then a hip drop is not a hip drop, is a movement of an entire person...

THis is why i also insist in attending workshops where some reasonable participation limit exists instead of attending popular/supermarket workshops, where i cannot see the teacher's movement clearly and with her entire body...

However, i do not dismiss the idea of learning through DVDs and videos and mirrors once there is not any other solution available. Quite the opposite! I think that we should learn in any way we can and once we are able to attend a class or a workshop, we should rush there (provided that the quality of the teaching we receive is the appropriate one).

And as i use very much youtube to decide about which teachers' workshops i should attend, i can assure you that the better the teacher, the worse the video looks after you can see her/him dancing live or teaching live. In some cases i was wondering how those excellent videos (which persuaded me to attend the workshop) make injustice to the real thing and why... then i understood: it is the technology, me fool! we will never be able to reproduce real dance on digital format...

Note: I wanted to add to Kashmir's reputation but the rep system did not allow me. Kashmir, consider as if i have given you a virtual reputation...

 

[goddessyasaman]

I think for those who live in rural areas or areas that aren't that multicultural then one will have to think outside the box with how they learn this dance. It's not ideal and it doesn't work for everyone but you make do with what you have.

I personally have never attended a regular class, had a private lesson or had someone correct my posture etc in a workshop. Up until fall 2009 I hadn't attended any workshops. I have since then and have gone because I have liked that instructors dance style or respected what they have accomplished in this dance. The vast majority of my learning has been from watching performances and filming my practices and critiquing them myself in comparison to the performances I have watched etc.

I don't own any instructional dvds. And haven't actually ever watched one.

I'm pretty confident in my technique and am always reviewing my videos noting what needs work. I am the first to admit that there are huge gaps in my "dance education" in regards to knowledge of folklore, names of rhythms etc as those can be harder to find the resources to teach yourself. I have learned lots by reading the forums, but also acknowledge that for that sort of thing having a teacher nearby would be preferable lol. That being said I am always honest when teaching students, I am good for technique but you'll have to go beyond me if you want to learn more in regards to folklore, history etc. I still do lots of reading but am always trying to learn more but I do have limited resources available to me at this moment in my life based on where I live.

Am I perfect dancer? No. But I think I've done okay with what has been available to me.

There are a lot of teachers out there that don't teach about belly dance history even if they can get to the info for study, at least you care to.

When I was Teaching at this one location, the people that owned the yoga studio try'ed to tell me that they did'nt think that anyone who was coming to the class wanted to learn about the history of belly dance and the like, that they only wanted to dance or exercise, I told them "I don't think you understand Belly dance" I think 50 out
of 125 of my students that took the begginer classes when I started did'nt think that there was so much to belly dance. I do think DVDs
for learning belly dance could be better far as breaking everything down but everyone learns differently.

May I ask how long you have been studying Middle eastern dance MissVega?

 

[Nailah_Siti]

Some students are permanent beginners due to any number of things, including physical limitations, lack of regular practice, long periods of absence from classes, and just general disinclination to advance. That's okay as long as they are happy and accept the reality of their situation.

Other students pick things up so quickly that it makes one's head spin. When I was 21, my teacher took me aside and told me she was bumping me up into the intermediate class after half a dozen beginning lessons. All the beginning stuff came very easily to me and I've had students who were the same way. Lack of challenge is as deadening as too much challenge, and I've bumped fairly new students up a few times myself in thirty+ years of teaching.

This is a great view. My teacher moved me up to intermediate after 2 6 wk sessions because I caught on quickly. However, I came in with an advantage from previous dance experience, musicality and work with expression. I know of people who had been with her for years and were still beginners and were totally fine with it. I wish there was a standard "code" of what each level should be able to accomplish, it would make personal growth easier when we purchase dvds, watch videos online etc. I honestly try not to stress what level I am, in my eyes I AM a BELLYDANCER. The length of time since I've started and whether or not I get paid does not define me

 

[Shanazel]

I came in with an advantage from previous dance experience, musicality and work with expression.

In the interest of complete disclosure I should add this was also true for me, though I didn't have dance experience going clear back to grade school like some of my friends.

 

[Shara]

the problem with DVDs is that the instructor cannot come over and put your foot, arm or elbow where she would actually like you to be holding it, or hold your shoulders to keep them still or get you to not bob up and down. I definitely believe in "hands on" dance instruction! Some people can get it without hands on, but the large majority cannot.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I have met several piano tuners in my life. (Long boring story -- just believe me when I said I've met at least a dozen.)

Only one of those guys and gals could tune the piano by ear. The others used electronic "pitch pipes" so to speak.

The guy who could do it by ear explained to me how he did it. It's simple acoustics, but it takes a VERY PRACTICED ear to actually hear how it's tuned.


I think the same thing is true of most dance students. MOST students cannot imitate other dancers and give themselves a meaningful critique, even via video. Being able to look at yourself on videotape and actually give yourself feedback is an incredibly important (but also incredibly difficult) skill to learn. I have been around dancers who look over their performance videos and think "wow I look fabulous" because they can't actually SEE what's wrong. Developing the eye for self-critique takes times. Very few people have it right out of the starting gate.

I suspect MissVega may have it - ?

Of course, we are all "self-taught" in some ways. The thing that concerns me about dancers who don't get formal training in Middle Eastern dance, is that they don't know what they don't know. You are limiting yourself to only a surface interpretation of the music.

For some dancers and entertainers this is fine. And they don't care to know more. For others, we see continued study and continued analysis as a way of milking EVERYTHING we can out of the music and culture. When you've been to Seville, it's much easier to understand and appreciate the music of Flamenco -- it's so different to experience the place of origin and the culture of origin. I'm told when you've been to the Said, it puts an entirely different level of understanding on the Saidi dances.

Honestly I think the best non-native dancers are the ones who have spent time in the region, who have studied the music and the culture, and who really attempt to encompass that culture's "mindset" when dancing. People like Sahra Saeeda and Ranya Renee -- their dancing is on a completely different plane of existence than that of so many of the rest of us. Why is that? I can only conclude that it's because of their intense study and intense exposure to the originating cultural traditions and music.

 

[goddessyasaman]

Honestly I think the best non-native dancers are the ones who have spent time in the region, who have studied the music and the culture, and who really attempt to encompass that culture's "mindset" when dancing. People like Sahra Saeeda and Ranya Renee -- their dancing is on a completely different plane of existence than that of so many of the rest of us. Why is that? I can only conclude that it's because of their intense study and intense exposure to the originating cultural traditions and music.

I agree, A lot of belly dancers have yet to really understand the culture traditions and music of middle eastern dance. Or they know none.

I don't think I have come across any workshops on the history of middle eastern dance, have you Aziyade?

 

[mahsati_janan]

I agree, A lot of belly dancers have yet to really understand the culture traditions and music of middle eastern dance. Or they know none.

I don't think I have come across any workshops on the history of middle eastern dance, have you Aziyade?

There are a number of people out there who do specialty workshops on history of particular styles or regions. Some names to get you started:

Sahra Saeeda
Faten Salama
Artemis Mourat
Robyn Friend
Helene Eriksen
Habiba
Aisha Ali
Hadia
Andrea Deagon
Barbara Sellers-Young
Hassan Khalil
Mahmoud Reda and Farida Fahmy

There are a lot more out there and the information available is amazing. Also check out the music/dance/folklore camps and weeklong intensives. The IBCC is also a great place to learn more about history is you can make the trip there.

 

[Kashmir]

I agree, A lot of belly dancers have yet to really understand the culture traditions and music of middle eastern dance. Or they know none.

I don't think I have come across any workshops on the history of middle eastern dance, have you Aziyade?

Actually I have been doing these in New Zealand since 2001 (Christchurch, Wellington, Auckland, Tauranga - will travel ). They vary in length from 2 to 6 hours depending on scope required.

 

[Darshiva]

How far will travel? Just as a point of curiousity...