Instructors! Some questions.

Elfie

New member
This is about the levels of belly dancing. Beginner, intermediate, advanced, and pro, right?

Generally, what does one learn at each level? How long does a dancer stay at one level? What does it take for a dancer to advance levels? I know these things vary from teacher to teacher.... that's why I'm asking specifically. I want to hear about skill levels from the dancers and teachers to see that exact variety.
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
Of course the "levels" are completely arbitrary and dependent upon each individual teacher.

Some schools offer a 6-8-week "beginner" class, then another 8-week "intermediate" then a final/continuing "advanced" class, which is somewhat ridiculous, since 24 weeks of dance is by no means "advanced."

I have levels 1, 2, and 3. But these aren't so much ability-based as content-focused. My level 3 classes have always been folkloric dances, and much more musical interpretation. Level 3 is also the main performance group. We don't always meet regularly.

My level 1 and 2 are basic "cabaret" classes with some ethnic dance, but mostly just technique and choreographies, with improvisation being a big focus lately. When I feel a dancer has moved beyond the types of drills in Level 1, and is ready for more compound movements and more complicated music, I move her into Level 2.


Sedonia of Nile Breeze in IL put together a wonderful list of what she expected from various "levels" of dancers, so let me see if I can dig that out and post it.
 
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Yame

New member
It varies GREATLY from area to area and teacher to teacher. I guarantee that if you ask 10 different teachers, unless they are part of a set method (Suhaila's, for example) you will get 10 different answers.

Where I live, there aren't a lot of people taking classes, and most people in belly dance classes are beginners. Very few beginners go on to intermediate class, so by the time you get to an advanced level there are only 2 or 3 people who are truly advanced, and that's not enough for a class only for them.

So, what ends up happening is most teachers will have only a beginners class, which will have people who are anywhere between baby beginners and low intermediates, and an intermediate/advanced class, with people anywhere between low or mid-intermediate level and low to high advanced levels. In other words, due to low attendance and budgetary constraints, most classes around here are mixed-level.

Some teachers don't even teach intermediate or advanced students at all... they only teach beginners, and once you outgrow them you have to find another teacher.
 

Yame

New member
I do have my own ideas of what a beginner dancer is like, what an intermediate dancer is like, and what an advanced dancer is like. I also made up my own category that is beyond advanced, which I like to call world-class as opposed to professional, because in reality professionals can be anywhere from beginner to world-class... the word does not denote level for me.

Of course, not every dancer fits neatly into any category, and the categories will vary by style, among other things. There are also levels within levels... it's more like having a level bar that you are constantly filling... or, a visual for those of you who don't play games, a glass of water that is very slowly being filled up, until it overflows. We all start out with no water or with just a couple of drops, we start pouring in the water, in the beginning we fill up pretty quickly but once we get the glass filled about halfway, the water comes in more slowly... drop by drop, and slowly we get close to the top. Not all dancers get to the top, and of those who do, few overflow. Those who do are the ones I call world-class.
 

Elfie

New member
Thanks Aziyade!

Yame, that's what I'm trying to avoid. If the teacher I found gets enough forms in to do a class, I want to be able to advance. Not knowing my own skill level, I don't know if a beginner class is even for me. I'm going to look at that list upthread and see what I can figure out.

Cross posting!

Yame, regarding your second post, that level bar is kind of what I'm trying to figure out. I want to know where i am so I can research accordingly for what I need to do next.
 
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Kashmir

New member
Huge range - and sometimes influenced by marketing. The worse case I heard of was a weekend workshop. Saturday was "beginner" and Sunday "intermediate" (or maybe even "advanced"). No, not two different workshops but after one day you were at the next level!!

I avoid the labels as in my own mind, having seen a large range of dancers while travelling, I'd say most of the students I come across are definitely "beginner" (and I'd put my own executive level at "intermediate"). For this reason I use Introductory, then Level 1,2,3 etc.

At the Introductory level (10 hours) people are still struggling with belly dance movements - they aren't belly dancing.

At level 1 they are beginner belly dancers - they are starting to master some simple movements and very simple layering (eg moving a hip with a step) and learning the joys of transitions and weight transfer with a simple choreography.

Level 2 are introduced to more advanced moves - such as vertical eights and hip shimmies with weight transfer. Veil and zills are also introduced. Some at this level start folkloric styles and add cane.

etc etc
 

LadyLoba

New member
I've been looking at classes and DVDs and the different "levels" they list can be confusing when you're relatively new to the dance. And then to add to the confusion, moves are referred to with different names depending on the style of belly dance or even just by different people according to personal preference.....so sometimes you can read a class description...and unless you're knowledgable about belly dance, not even know if what they're talking about is what you think they're talking about.

My best method has been to read the curriculum of as many different classes, watch as many DVDs, and read as many web pages as I can and then find somebody on here who I know is a teacher, show them the clip or the material...and ask them what would be appropriate when or what I'd need to do first or what level it is when I'm still not sure.

I know in my case...I think that when I get to take a class...I will probably want to sign up for an Intermediate class....but depending on the teacher I might be ready to start Intermediate, or I might need to just do the Beginner class and consider going over the moves I've already got down a chance to get some extra practice and make any needed corrections. It's really hard to say..
 

Darshiva

Moderator
It can be very hard, especially in a rural area, to have enough students to branch away from beginner classes. So to answer the question I will first explain what I would ideally do with enough students to cater for 3-4 levels and what I DO do because I don't have the student numbers to justify multiple levels.

What I want to do: Three levels (possibly four).

First focuses on basic technique & prop familiarity. Some layering technique to alleviate the 'but I'm not doing anything NEW!' blues. Musicality and improvisation technique. Introduction to simple choreography. Lasts approximately 2 years on average.

Second focuses on more complex technique and layering. More prop work. More complex musicality and improv technique. More complex choreography. Audition & exam required to move on to this level.

Third focuses on musculature to refine and expand technique & layering. Complex prop work. Complex choreography. Audience interaction and stage/restaurant technique. Cold improvisation. Audition & exam required to move on to this level.

What I do because my ambition outstrips reality: Teach the basics & add layering for students who are more advanced. Merge in the second & third level curriculum for students who need more to sink their teeth into. Teach a moderately complex choreography technique-wise that is repetitive, with the opportunity to either stage it up or down as the student requires. Teach musicality and props in such a way that students are very familiar with both and can expand upon them at their own pace within the classroom.

It's a big ask for a small classroom, but it is possible. I have had the awkwardness of telling a student who was always down on herself that she'd've been in the intermediate class a year or so ago if I had one. So it obviously doesn't do the job I want it to do, but I don't have the student numbers to separate things out the way I want to. I think you'll find a lot of teachers with one class are like that. But that's why I call my class 'open level'. Because you can come in at any level and find something new & interesting in my class, because if you look bored I'll challenge you with complexity. ;)
 

jenc

New member
i have to say that unless you have access to a very structured class structure, with lots of levels, most people need at least 2 years at beginner level. If you have never been taught before, also you would need to familiarise yourself with the way your teacher teaches - and you may well have some correction to do on the way you move. then you need to learn the teacher's terminology - which may also slow you down - to go into intermediates, you need to be able to follow and pick up without stopping to work out what was meant.

also very important is learning to dance oin a group. In a class, you will not only drill in lines and circles, you will probably learn group choreos and you need to be aware of the space around you and other people. When I was a new dancer and thought a lot of myself - I was told that i needed to learn how to fit my steps into everyone else's as my movements were too big which made practising in a circle difficult.

for these reasons (among others) it is best to start with a beginner class. i myself have bee learning for almost 5 years and attend one intermediate class and one absolute beginners (this one is my favourite).
 

Elfie

New member
See, this is what confuses me.

According to the list Aziyade put up, I'm early intermediate. The only ting is I've never performed. Ever. I get dressed up and dance, but that doesn't count LOL! But I already have some of those "Upper intermediate" bits too.

Such as:

  1. * Dance aesthetic becomes even more finely honed; the music dictates the dance to you according to this aesthetic.
  2. * You are able to pick out costumes that are flattering in style and color to your body type and appropriate for particular dance styles.
  3. * Make your own choreographies and improvisational dances.

The thing is that even though I started training last May, I spent soooo much time learning belly dance. And yes, I do keep a rigid training schedule. For the first several months, I practiced five days a week combining drills with dancing for roughly an hour with small three minute breaks. I used this free online belly dance course at first, then started learning other moves independently with other sources such as ehow. (I studied moves in three different stylings... Egyptian, Tribal and American Cabaret, and the results I've gotten when I improv is very gypsyish.)

I used belly dance as my fitness program, you know? Drills worked muscles and dancing did my cardio. I was a happy camper. Now I drill two days a week and dance three days a week. I actually dance every day, but those other days I just noodle - dance to whatever's on the radio or ipod while I do housework haha.

And what counts as mastering a move? Proper execution? Able to transition the well executed move into a dance/improv without hitching? When does floor work and bends come in because I already do those (though my floor work needs more work;)). I get confused sometimes to the point that I give up trying to figure out where I am (what level) on my own, you know?
 

Nailah_Siti

New member
I think for us newbies its a good idea to start as a beginner with any new teacher at least to learn the teacher's teaching style. I am also starting at beginner with my new teacher because I am learning a different style, so although the moves may be similar they are not the same. It never hurts to have a more solid foundation of basic movement. Plus, because you haven't received feedback on how you're doing for almost a year it could do wonders for your confidence if you see how you are doing in a room full of women in the mirror. You could always take a private class if you feel like you aren't getting enough from it :) just my newbie opinion
 

Yame

New member
i have to say that unless you have access to a very structured class structure, with lots of levels, most people need at least 2 years at beginner level. If you have never been taught before, also you would need to familiarise yourself with the way your teacher teaches - and you may well have some correction to do on the way you move. then you need to learn the teacher's terminology - which may also slow you down - to go into intermediates, you need to be able to follow and pick up without stopping to work out what was meant.

[...]

for these reasons (among others) it is best to start with a beginner class. i myself have bee learning for almost 5 years and attend one intermediate class and one absolute beginners (this one is my favourite).

I'm going to have to disagree with some of this. I really don't think you can make that kind of generalization, about most people needing at least 2 years of beginner level. The amount of time any individual should spend in a beginner level class will depend on a multitude of factors.

It will depend on the structure of the teacher's level system, on how good the teacher is at teaching, on how much effort the student puts into dance in and out of class, how much the student practices, how much the student watches other dancers outside of class, prior dance and movement experience the student may have had, medical conditions, natural talent, age, etc.

It's possible to encounter people who have been belly dancing for 10 years who are still beginners as well as people who have been belly dancing for less than a year who are well beyond beginner level. Sure, most people will fall somewhere beyond these two extremes, but because of how many factors come into play I like to be REALLY careful about putting a timeline into people's progress. On one hand, it could keep very talented students from wanting to advance for fear of doing it too early, and on the other hand it can give long-time students a sense of entitlement and advancement when really their skill level is still very low despite how long they have been dancing.


With those things being said, I do think it's a good idea to start with a beginners class when starting classes with a new teacher. There are a few teachers out there that I would absolutely want to start as a beginner, to catch every little detail they have to teach and understand their basic technique, even though most teachers would consider me an advanced dancer in most respects.

With other teachers, though, I can jump right into their advanced classes because they don't pay as much attention to stylistic differences and I am not looking to master their particular style. So this is also something that I think should be treated on a case by case basis.

But I could totally understand teachers requiring a new student to come to at least one beginner class to find out what's the best match for them. If I was a teacher, I would absolutely do this. There are tons of students out there who think they are advanced when they don't have any of the basics down yet, and there are dancers who are advanced in one style but have a lot to learn in others. I wouldn't want a student to be in the completely wrong class, because I would want my students to get the most out of my classes.

However, keeping *all* new students in a beginners class for one or more full sessions regardless of their prior experience with other teachers and how beneath them the class is, I think is just a waste of money for the student. I wouldn't want to waste my time and money in a class that is not challenging me.
 
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jenc

New member
I am still attending a beginner's class after 4 and a half years. this is partly because there isn't much else out there but also because I lkie the style of this particular teacher.

I said that most people require 2 years becvuse I see a lot of people who have danced for more than a year who stillhave problems with certain moves. now this may be because with the need to keep "beginner" classes interesting enough for more advanced students, the absolute basic may be a little rushed.

The rest of my post about needing to learn how to take classes and fit into a group is still relevant
 

Yshka

New member
Nailah Siti said:
I think for us newbies its a good idea to start as a beginner with any new teacher at least to learn the teacher's teaching style.

:D Yes! I am going to try and give you some reputation points for that one!!

Levels vary with different teachers, but the advice above is a good one. Let me give a little example. I consider myself very lucky with my teachers from the start and thus I am used to very high standard of classes (in terms of lots of work on solid technique, proper posture and correct use of the body, musical interpretation and very thorough explanation). I get bored easily in many other classes and have found only a few teachers who live up to the 'standard' of teaching I am used to getting. I've seen many students from surrounding areas on the other hand, who have been dancing for various periods of time and who are 'advanced' or even 'highly advanced'/pro (don't know how to translate the former) at their school, end up in beginners level 3 or early intermediates with us as they cannot seem to keep up in 'advanced'. We have 3 levels of "beginner" classes, various intermediate levels and an advanced/continuing class. Though performance skills and stage presence/presentation are part of classes at a higher level, there is a showteam for the highly ambitious dancers, and students who want to perform can be coached on their way, which works very well.

Students who move faster than our 'set' levels are able to move up in agreement with the teachers, or often take multiple classes to see what fits and move up later. I find this is a very effective method. As a teacher, I try to use the same methods because this, in my own experience, works.

As a student, I find myself starting in one of the upper beginner level classes with every new teacher to get to know the style and level of the teacher, and very importantly: for the teacher to get to know me. Elfie, I'd say try out beginners and talk to the teacher after the first class. There's nothing like a live teacher and it never does hurt to review the basics, and this way you also get to know how the teacher works when explaining, correcting (!), etc.

Talking to the teacher after she has watched you dance will give you valuable information to review. She may notice things you have not thought of, things you might have to improve on, or may notice you dance too well to be in beginners and move you up.

Whatever you sign up for, dance your behind off, talk to the instructor and.... have fun!! :D
 

Afrit

New member
I'm going to have to disagree with some of this. I really don't think you can make that kind of generalization, about most people needing at least 2 years of beginner level. The amount of time any individual should spend in a beginner level class will depend on a multitude of factors.
True - but the other problem is people's unrealistic understanding of what "beginner" actually is. I've meet people who think because they can do and hip drop and a shoulder shimmy they are no longer "beginner". You sometimes come across those who have "learnt it all" in a few months and then go on about how limiting belly dance is - when actually they have had very limited teachers who are really beginners themselves.
 

goddessyasaman

New member
Yes it depends on the teacher as well as the student, some students learn at different paces When I take on a new student I ask them questions The main two are "Do you want to learn Belly dance for fun?" or "Do you want to Learn Belly dance as an Art, and Learn all you can?"

It's important to know this when teaching at least I like to, because it may take time to learn.

I keep my students at beginner level for at least 6 months unless I see improvement where they are ready for intermediate try out. And as I said some students could be ready before this, so it goes person to person, Advance is the same way and so on.

I give a test to see if my student is ready.

Now when you are self taught it's harder to say because you don't have a teacher telling you that your ready now to advance to the next level.
 

Shanazel

Moderator
Some students are permanent beginners due to any number of things, including physical limitations, lack of regular practice, long periods of absence from classes, and just general disinclination to advance. That's okay as long as they are happy and accept the reality of their situation.

Other students pick things up so quickly that it makes one's head spin. When I was 21, my teacher took me aside and told me she was bumping me up into the intermediate class after half a dozen beginning lessons. All the beginning stuff came very easily to me and I've had students who were the same way. Lack of challenge is as deadening as too much challenge, and I've bumped fairly new students up a few times myself in thirty+ years of teaching.

Offering levels in teaching is useful mainly when a student sticks with the same teacher or school for a good length of time. Changing schools and expecting the levels to be equivalent is about useless. One teacher's advanced intermediates would collapse in tears in another's second year beginners classes. For example, Yasaman mentioned beginner classes of six months; when I was able to set my own limits (prior to working for the parks and rec dept) my beginners on average worked for eighteen months to build up muscle memory and good habits.

Each teacher or school has particular ideas about what constitutes proper levels, and a student may have to ask a lot of questions to determine where she belongs. Ideally the teacher would help determine this, but...
 
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