Spanish Infusion

[Daimona]

If you plan to do fusion and make your own choreographies, I would highly reccommend you to cross-train in that style.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

I tried to do a video of flamenco and was totally flummoxed. This dance really does require live classroom on hands training because it is very difficult. You may be able to borrow a few moves but just a few. That is also what I have seen as well, where dancers who took some flamenco instruction from a teacher borrowed a few moves to incorporate in their bellydance. But only a few.

 

[Elfie]

One wouldn't necessarily have to actually know flamenco to effectively incorporate a Spanish feel to their dance. Latin fusion isn't the same thing. Flamenco fusion isn't the same thing.

I think, from what I can glean from Belly Love's posts, is that she's not looking to actually use Spanish dance movements exactly... she's just wanting to add a little Spanish *feel* to her belly dance. I think this is more attitude, costuming choices, music choices. Spanish dances (flamenco and bolero) and Latin dances (Salsa and tango) are very passionate (almost to the point of feeling violent at times) and romantic styles of dance. Sharper movements and that violent passion in attitude, combined with perhaps a Spanish inspired variations on step movements or hip movements, with Spanish influenced music, a little Spanish flair in the costuming and you have a "taste" of Spanish dance in your belly dance. Perhaps taking a beginner course in Spanish styled dancing would be a good idea, but if you don't want a 50/50 fusion, I wouldn't take too many classes.

Here is a web site article that lists traditional Spanish style dances you can look into. It has some good historical info on dance in Spain and how it's evolved.

History of Spanish Dance

 

[MissVega]

I think if you want to use the costuming and the music and the attitude then I agree that you need to cross train in the styles that interest you and at least KNOW what you are doing, whether or not you choose to use the movement.
If you're planning on just doing it at home for fun then I don't think it matters too much, but if it is something you would like to one day perform then I think it does.

I also haven't heard of any self taught flamenco dancers. Sure there are those that are family taught and grew up with the culture, music and dance. But the knowledge is still passed on. Based on my understanding from Anjelica Scannura's workshop, flamenco is actually very complicated with "rules" as what can go where and with what music etc (forgive my lack of clarity the workshop was about 5 months ago lol). But it's like "structured improv" for how the dancer is to react to the music. I don't see how one could become a professional in Flamenco without acquiring such knowledge from others in the culture or having grown up with it. They could certainly watch it and learn the movements, but not the context.

 

[Belly Love]

Check out Elena Lentini (if you can find video of her) or if you're in New York, take a class with her. Her Spanish flavored dance is amazing.

Also you might check out Faten Munger in Indianapolis. She sells dvds of flamenco for bellydancers.

Oh -- heck, get these from World Dance New York:

http://www.worlddancenewyork.com/catalog/flamenco

Inexpensive and wonderful dvds to give you a sense of flamenco and its music. Also check out Spanish folk dance. That should give you a wide range of ideas to play with.

Spanish fan or fan veil is a fun prop to play with, also.

I will check these out, thanks! And the fans definitely look like a fun accessory

Saida is actually from Argentina, and her dance has not a Spanish influence but an Argentinian influence (tango), plus ballet.

By the way, "Spanish" and "Latin" are not interchangeable terms.

When not describing the actual languages, "Spanish" usually refers to something that is from Spain, the country. Sometimes people use that word to refer to things from Spanish-speaking countries in general, but that's inaccurate. That would be like calling an American dance "English" just because people speak English in the US.

"Latin" generally refers to the countries of Latin America, at least in a context like this. Sure, Spain, Italy, etc are countries in Europe whose languages come from Latin, but when people talk about "Latin flavor" or "Latin culture" they usually are referring to Latin America, as opposed to Spain.

Okay, I don't even know where to begin on this subject... it's a bit complicated. I'll say this, I understand what you're saying and technically, you are correct. BUT, sometimes the words "Latin" or "Spanish" are also often used as generalized terms (in the States anyway). Sometimes when someone says, "Spanish" they are referring to something from Spanish speaking countries, not necessarily Spain. This isn't necessarily incorrect either because there is a lot of Spanish influence and/or anscestry in these countries. As far as Latin goes, it's often times a common term used for anything that comes from Latin America. If Flamenco is a common dance done in Latin America, people may refer to it as a Latin dance. It's like how Latin Americans are also commonly called Hispanic. Technically this is wrong (even though this term is used in filling out important things like goverment forms, etc.) Anyone who is Hispanic is only from the Dominican Republic or Haiti, because it was formerly known as the Island of Hispaniola (sp?). It's just such a complicated subject... but I would like to use the best terminology possible and keep it general. Thanks for your input I will be defnintely going with the word, Spanish!

I am a little confused by this; do you mean that most pro flamenco dancers are self-taught? Having worked with flamenco musicians, dancers, and instructors in 3 different states, I have never met a professional that had not spent years in classes. Flamenco is a very demanding and challenging form (or set of forms) on its own. There are different types of flamenco, but I have not ever heard of a style where most of the pros had not studied formally.

I guess what I was trying to say that a lot of dancers who perform were taught informally... maybe by learning from an older sister, aunt, etc. and don't necessarily ever persue formal training by taking classes. I definitely don't think it's any easy dance but maybe depending on what country you're in makes the difference in how many people learn it. For instance, it might be more common in Mexico to learn from just being around those who do it and in the States it might be more common to take classes...?

I think, from what I can glean from Belly Love's posts, is that she's not looking to actually use Spanish dance movements exactly... she's just wanting to add a little Spanish *feel* to her belly dance.
Sharper movements and that violent passion in attitude, combined with perhaps a Spanish inspired variations on step movements or hip movements, with Spanish influenced music, a little Spanish flair in the costuming and you have a "taste" of Spanish dance in your belly dance.

Exactly!

I think if you want to use the costuming and the music and the attitude then I agree that you need to cross train in the styles that interest you and at least KNOW what you are doing, whether or not you choose to use the movement.

I agree. I want to actually know what I'm doing and the meaning behind it (if any) vs. just copying a movement.

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions and input. I read everyone's replies and everyone had good advice. I think discussing the different viewpoints and ideas helps me to understand the subject better and causes me to think about it more in depth, which in turn, will make me a better dancer.

If anyone has any more thoughts or opinions, please share, I want to learn as much as I can!

 

[Yame]

Sometimes when someone says, "Spanish" they are referring to something from Spanish speaking countries, not necessarily Spain.

And sometimes when someone says "Japanese" they are referring to anyone with dark hair and squinty eyes from those countries in the far east, or anything that comes from a country that is full of dark-haired people with squinty eyes. That doesn't make them right. That only makes them ignorant.

This isn't necessarily incorrect either because there is a lot of Spanish influence and/or anscestry in these countries.

In some contexts, it isn't incorrect. The obvious one is if you are talking about the language. They speak Spanish in Mexico, not "Mexican." But that's just the name of the language. If you are using "Spanish" as an adjective, you better be talking about something that is from Spain. If you are talking for example about a historic town somewhere in Latin America that retained its colonial architecture, it might be correct to refer to its architecture as Spanish. But in general, if you are talking about someone or something from a Spanish-speaking country other than Spain, you should not call it Spanish. If it's from many countries in Latin America you can call it Latin or Latin American, if it's from Cuba you can call it Cuban, if it's from Bolivia, Bolivian.

These countries have Spanish influence and ancestry but they also have their own identities. They have been independent for centuries and have their own cultures which are unique and different from Spain. People like to be given credit for what belongs to them, and no one wants to be overly associated with the identity of those who colonized them.

As far as Latin goes, it's often times a common term used for anything that comes from Latin America. If Flamenco is a common dance done in Latin America, people may refer to it as a Latin dance.

"Latin" these days generally refers to Latin America. I'm pretty sure this is what I said in my post.
Flamenco is not a dance common in Latin America, it's a dance from Spain. This is exactly the reason I am being picky about terms. If they are not being used accurately, people will get confused.

 

[Belly Love]

And sometimes when someone says "Japanese" they are referring to anyone with dark hair and squinty eyes from those countries in the far east, or anything that comes from a country that is full of dark-haired people with squinty eyes. That doesn't make them right. That only makes them ignorant.

Whoa! Yes, this would make them ignorant, but I don't think that's the same thing. If were talking about a type of food that is grown in Japan and is Japanese, but is also a mainstay dish in China, people might also call it a Chinese dish. Yes, it's technically wrong, but it's generally not.

In some contexts, it isn't incorrect. The obvious one is if you are talking about the language. They speak Spanish in Mexico, not "Mexican."

Yeah, I agree with you on this. In some contexts it's not correct.

These countries have Spanish influence and ancestry but they also have their own identities. They have been independent for centuries and have their own cultures which are unique and different from Spain. People like to be given credit for what belongs to them, and no one wants to be overly associated with the identity of those who colonized them.

I totally understand what your saying, but not everything requires being so technical and that's where generalizations come in- they can be useful when having to describe something that's not a black and white issue or a broad subject.

"Latin" these days generally refers to Latin America. I'm pretty sure this is what I said in my post.
Flamenco is not a dance common in Latin America, it's a dance from Spain. This is exactly the reason I am being picky about terms. If they are not being used accurately, people will get confused.

I understand that Flamenco is a Spanish dance, but there is a HUGE Spanish influence/anscestry in Latin America and every single person I know who dances Flamenco is from Latin America... mostly Mexican. Yes, there are other influences/anscestries but Spanish is one of the most prominent. I have a lot of Mexican friends and many of them know Flamenco or have family that does (I know this 'cause I was going to take classes a few years ago). I do not have a single Caucasion American friend who knows Flamenco. My point is, that if a dance is common amongst a group of people, no matter where it originated from, that group of people is going to be associated with the dance.

 

[Yame]

I understand that Flamenco is a Spanish dance, but there is a HUGE Spanish influence/anscestry in Latin America and every single person I know who dances Flamenco is from Latin America... mostly Mexican. Yes, there are other influences/anscestries but Spanish is one of the most prominent. I have a lot of Mexican friends and many of them know Flamenco or have family that does (I know this 'cause I was going to take classes a few years ago). I do not have a single Caucasion American friend who knows Flamenco. My point is, that if a dance is common amongst a group of people, no matter where it originated from, that group of people is going to be associated with the dance.

We live in a globalized world. People can learn Flamenco almost anywhere in the world these days, and in certain places there might be fruitful Flamenco communities like in a lot of places outside the Middle East we have active belly dance communities, but that does not change the roots and the identity of the dance. The dance might evolve in these new places and develop into a recognizable style, but as long as the dance is still living and evolving in its source region, that will continue to be its main identity.

I imagine that although there are people who dance flamenco in Mexico, perhaps more than in the US (although I can't confirm that), these people are aware that flamenco is a Spanish dance. I went and did some reading just to check, here's what I found:

Triana

"Quienes practican el flamenco en México reconocen que la fuente primordial se encuentra en España, en los núcleos andaluces principalmente, y en los reductos madrileños y barceloneses.
Existe en México una fuerte afición que se explica por un lado por genuina herencia y afinidad y por el otro, por el legítimo anhelo de grupos de descendientes directos de andaluces de vincularse con el origen a traves de los códigos del flamenco. "

Translation:
"Practitioners of flamenco in Mexico recognize that the primary source is found in Spain, mainly in the Andalusian nuclei, and in the citadels of Madrid and Barcelona.
In Mexico there is a strong fondness that is explained on one side by genuine heritage and affinity, and on the other by the legitimate desire of groups of descendants of Andalusians to link themselves with their origin through the codes of flamenco."

 

[seona]

If you plan to do fusion and make your own choreographies, I would highly reccommend you to cross-train in that style.

I'm not a fusion dancer, and what Daimona says seems to be the general thinking. I read time after time that if you are going to fuse belly dance with another style, you must know/ be trained in the style you are fusing. That seems to be the general advice.

 

[Aniseteph]

So, I feel much better knowing that I won't have to do years of hardcore Flamenco training along with belly dance just to give my dance a little flavor

To give a Spanish flavour no. My dance buddy did a Spanish-flavoured number a few years back and did exactly that. There's lots of ME pop from the Latin trend a few years back that is almost asking for it. People were impressed by her Flamenco-esque poses and asked if she'd studied it - nope, she just threw in a few poses, a bit of attitude, and black and red costuming. If she had said it was Flamenco fusion then anyone knowing the first thing about Flamenco would have been 100% entitled to a WTF? moment, IMO.

Same as if someone was doing another dance form and wanted a "belly dance flavour" - like the Arabian number in The Nutcracker. Flavour is fine, but the minute they are pretending it IS anything to do with belly dance they had better have studied it to a standard appropriate for the venue and performance. Otherwise expect flak/ ridicule from people who have studied it or know better.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

But in general, if you are talking about someone or something from a Spanish-speaking country other than Spain, you should not call it Spanish. If it's from many countries in Latin America you can call it Latin or Latin American, if it's from Cuba you can call it Cuban, if it's from Bolivia, Bolivian.

These countries have Spanish influence and ancestry but they also have their own identities. They have been independent for centuries and have their own cultures which are unique and different from Spain. People like to be given credit for what belongs to them, and no one wants to be overly associated with the identity of those who colonized them.

I agree with you. And this is totally OT, however, the term "Spanish" is to some Latin Americans a mark of a higher social class and to be referred to as "Spanish" is a compliment. I only have experience with populations in my area from Chile and El Salvador, but many of the upwardly-mobile women consider themselves "Spanish" -- almost as if they were descendants of the Spanish settlers, whether they actually are or not. Interestingly enough, they will often refer to "lower class" and lowest social caste men as "Indians."

I learned a bit of Flamenco theory in Seville. There Flamenco is considered to be the indigenous music of Andalusia. Not even of "Spain" per se, but of that particular cultural region.

There are male and female forms of the various dances, although nowadays most female dancers learn both. The original female forms are very flowing and liquid and beautiful, and are _mostly_ centered in the upper body and torso. I love the angular and stompy bits too, but I think all belly dancers could learn a little from studying the arm and upper torso control of Flamenco dancers.

 

[Yame]

This thread has renewed my interest in flamenco... I was watching some videos last night to post here, and now I am really wanting to learn flamenco. Unfortunately I might already be taking as many dance classes as my schedule, body, and sanity will allow.

 

[Belly Love]

the term "Spanish" is to some Latin Americans a mark of a higher social class and to be referred to as "Spanish" is a compliment. I only have experience with populations in my area from Chile and El Salvador, but many of the upwardly-mobile women consider themselves "Spanish" -- almost as if they were descendants of the Spanish settlers, whether they actually are or not. Interestingly enough, they will often refer to "lower class" and lowest social caste men as "Indians."

Interesting you mention this- I called a friend of mine last night to get her input on the subject because she has lived in Spain and Mexico and is in love with both their cultures. Anyway, I asked her in a general way without my opinion to get her unbiased thoughts and in part of her reply, she said the same thing as you- That Spanish people are seen as a higher social class of people and often times Latin Americans welcome the association. I never realized this before...

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

There is SO MUCH information about how we feel about ourselves encoded in our language, it's really wild. I find the subject utterly fascinating.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Here's a sad note. When I was in high school, a good friend who was Latin American, classified himself as Hispanic. He was parts Guatemalan, Spanish, Mexican and Indian. However, at the time, he only owned up to being the first two because in his mind, the other two were low class. However, thankfully he has come to realize that whatever he is, it's nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[Yame]

So I just watched this and thought I should share here.
YouTube - Bozenka in Eilat festival 2010 in Israel
At the beginning of the second song she does a really nice fusion with flamenco.

 

[Belly Love]

So I just watched this and thought I should share here.
YouTube - Bozenka in Eilat festival 2010 in Israel
At the beginning of the second song she does a really nice fusion with flamenco.

I'll check it out, thanks!

 

[rsps]

You should see the confusion amongst my father's family...Portuguese (Latin, they are NOT Hispanics and you will cause a war by saying so) and Mexican (Indio or Hispanic? Or as my grandmother claimed not 'really' Mexican at all her 'People' really came from Germany and settled in Mexico a long, long time ago...screams inferiority complex?) They marginally claim the Mexican...so..my father's family claim 'Latin'.
I'm a mutt through and through and I like it all. Bring it on.

 

[Belly Love]

Oh yes, the Hispanic word! The only reason I know it's incorrect terminology for most Latins is because I was studying a region I was going to visit.

So many people are from different backgrounds and were raised in different countries than their various backgrounds that it's nearly impossible to be 100% PC all of the time.

It's the same thing with "American." American is used to either refer to people from America or more specifically the United States. People can get really offended when someone is referring to just U.S. Citizens and uses the word, Americans, because they feel it's excluding Canada, Mexico, etc. But I think the reason it's this way is because of the terminology itself. You can say someone is Guatamalen, African, Spanish, Russian, Sweedish, but there is no "United Statesian" you have to say, "from the United States". So people just say American.

I was born & raised in the states but am a mix of things... all I am ever called is White (unless my hair is really dark- then people are always confused... "Part Mexican?" Nope. "Russan?" Nope. "Half Japanese?" Nope... it's actually kind of fun

 

[RayaDancer]

I know this topic is kind of off the BD discussion path but wanted to interject.
I am half Puerto Rican, raised in a very hispanic culture, and we consider ourselves "hispanic", even though what Bellylove said is correct. Technically the only "hispanic" people are those from Hispanola, which is the island of DR/Haiti. But most Spanish speaking carribbean folks call themselves "hispanic", meaning those from Cuba, DR, and PR. even those from Haiti dont call themselves "hispanic", they call themselves haitian, because most people associate hispanic as those that speak spanish, and most haitians speak french/creole. And we never call ourselves carribbean, because that term is associated with people from Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago (both considered "West indian"), and Jamaica. other people from spanish speaking countries in central america and south america usually associate themselves by their country of origin, meaning mexicans from mexico, chileans from chile, columbians from colombia, etc.
in most of those countries as well, there are "class" distinctions; those that are "indigeno" (indigenous, native people, "indians") and those that have conquistador/European blood, usually easy to identify because of light skin and other European traits. unfortunately the indigenos are often looked down upon as lower class. but where i live in NYC, it is a melting pot of cultures and most people are proud of where they come from, regardless of being indigenous or not. We have city-wide parades/festivals for pretty much every one of these cultures. in fact, if you ask someone in NYC where they are from, they will name pretty much name everything except America, even the ones that were born here.