Israel & Palestine

Ariadne

Well-known member
@ariadne/bellylove: Since I have the impression BL doens`t have much info about it, I want to add another example of child murders on the other side; the recent gaza war(us calls it attack right?), the Israeli army bombed schools( and hospitals)with specialty bombs, causing many infant dead. Yes, officialy they bombed those school because there was a terrorist supposed to be inside. The palestinian population claims that wasn`t true for most of the cases. In the end, at least 1300 palestinians and 13 Israeli lost their lives

What you are talking about is called called shielding and it is a well documented tactic by both Hamas and Hezbollah to both store ammunitions under schools and hospitals and to shoot artillery and build gun emplacements from those locations as well. It's a "win/win" tactic since if Israel refrains from counter attacking because of the location they get to attack with impunity but if they counter them then they get to claim Isreal is targeting civilians. It's the sort of tactic only someone who considers civilians and children expendable would use. So not only do they have a history of targeting Israeli children with bombs etc but they target their own children with these types of tactics as well.
 

Erik

New member
It's the sort of tactic only someone who considers civilians and children expendable would use. So not only do they have a history of targeting Israeli children with bombs etc but they target their own children with these types of tactics as well.

I want to agree with this 100%, and the US has had a policy of disregarding human shields since at least 1942 that I know of, when Japanese forces attempted to use Filipino civilians as a shield. It did not work, and the Americans mowed them down anyway.

And for whomever mentioned it first, I too have noticed the stereotype that Jew and Zionist are the same. Orde Wingate, in addition to being one of the most brilliant and successful of the British generals (and a very strange man) was a Christian all his life. And he became a fanatical Zionist by choice.

The Palestinian Authority was established in 1994 and seems to be an important advance toward lasting peace in that region. Unfortunately, there will always be extremists on both sides who want to sabotage it by thoroghly demonizing the opposition any way they can, name-calling, spinning the facts, etc., but I think most people can see through it, or at least I hope so.
 

Greek Bonfire

Well-known member
@ Tarik: Your example doesn't hold up since every credible source I have found on the subject said that it wasn't the Jews that kicked the "Palestinians" out of Israel but that they were told to leave by the Arab nations before their invasion and that they are still living in camps because those same nations have told them they are not welcome in their countries and if they want one of their own they have to take Israel. It would be more accurate to compare all the Algonquin peoples moving to NYC, demanded to be allowed to rename it and have it legally changed into Indian Nation land, then an anti-Indian group telling everyone else they should leave so when they go into to kill the natives they won't get in the way.

This is something of a two way (or two faced) street. All of the other Arab nations encourage the Palestinians to hate the Jews as fellow and brother Arabs to the Palestinians and yet they don't do a thing to help the Palestinians in that they will not accept them when they want to relocate to another Arab land.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
@ Tarik: Your example doesn't hold up since every credible source I have found on the subject said that it wasn't the Jews that kicked the "Palestinians" out of Israel but that they were told to leave by the Arab nations before their invasion and that they are still living in camps because those same nations have told them they are not welcome in their countries and if they want one of their own they have to take Israel. It would be more accurate to compare all the Algonquin peoples moving to NYC, demanded to be allowed to rename it and have it legally changed into Indian Nation land, then an anti-Indian group telling everyone else they should leave so when they go into to kill the natives they won't get in the way.

Regardless of whether they were kicked out, asked to leave, encouraged to leave... Its irrelivant. The issue is you can't establish a nation in a country thsat is already heavily populated and not expect there to be problems. The PAlestinians people were native to the land. The native Palestinian people were Muslims, Christians and Jews. To come into the country and make a state for only one of those religious groups on the grounds that God promised it to them was not a wise thing to do. Doesn't matter how you slice it. I do believe that Jews had a right to peace and security, but the pressure should have been put on the nations where they lived to provide them with that. It would be as if the descendants of Africans decided to move back to Africa and create their own state... Oh wait... that did happen. Its called Libiria, I think we all know what a smashing success that turned out to be....

Anywho. Regardless of whose to blame, what should have been done, or not done, the fact of the matter is as I said, that all involved have been painted into a corner that's getting smaller and smaller. I don't have a solution. I think everyone needs to have peace of mind and security, but I don't know how its going to happen.:confused::(
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
Regardless of whether they were kicked out, asked to leave, encouraged to leave... Its irrelivant. The issue is you can't establish a nation in a country thsat is already heavily populated and not expect there to be problems. The PAlestinians people were native to the land. The native Palestinian people were Muslims, Christians and Jews...

It isn't irrelevant unless the constitution of the new state does not allow equal rights to those of the other religions mentioned. No matter what the population is they can choose to stay or go if they are recognized as citizens. There was even another state set aside for those who did not want to live there. The majority of it was not taken by Israel but by other Arab countries when they failed to conquer Israel. I agree that arbitrary boundries set by outside forces are asking for trouble, we have a multitude of example of that since WWII and not just in the middle east, but you cannot place the blame of Palestinian refugee camps on Israel since they were not the ones who created them.

It would be as if the descendants of Africans decided to move back to Africa and create their own state... Oh wait... that did happen. Its called Libiria, I think we all know what a smashing success that turned out to be....
Or as if Armenians who had been scattered all over the world by persecution wanted their own country.. oh wait, they have one now.

Liberia has had issues from the get go because the resettled blacks proceeded to enslave the local population and set up an oligarchy.

Neither one changes the fact that it is natural for any ethnic group to want sovereignty over themselves so they can protect their interests instead of being at the whim of others, after all look at what happened to the Jews in "the nations where they lived". It's the same reason there is an Iraqi Kurdistan now. As you mentioned there were already Jews living there, and others had already been moving into to the area even before the WW's, so saying they should stay in other countries not only denies the "currant" Jewish citizens their right to self determination but is a "not in my back yard" attitude. "The Jews can have their own community just not here."

Once again, blaming their presence for others killing them is the same as an abuser blaming the victim for making him mad. "If you didn't make me mad I wouldn't hurt you/if you didn't live here I wouldn't have to kill you." I call bull.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Mission impossible

It isn't irrelevant unless the constitution of the new state does not allow equal rights to those of the other religions mentioned. No matter what the population is they can choose to stay or go if they are recognized as citizens. There was even another state set aside for those who did not want to live there. The majority of it was not taken by Israel but by other Arab countries when they failed to conquer Israel. I agree that arbitrary boundries set by outside forces are asking for trouble, we have a multitude of example of that since WWII and not just in the middle east, but you cannot place the blame of Palestinian refugee camps on Israel since they were not the ones who created them.

Or as if Armenians who had been scattered all over the world by persecution wanted their own country.. oh wait, they have one now.

Liberia has had issues from the get go because the resettled blacks proceeded to enslave the local population and set up an oligarchy.

Neither one changes the fact that it is natural for any ethnic group to want sovereignty over themselves so they can protect their interests instead of being at the whim of others, after all look at what happened to the Jews in "the nations where they lived". It's the same reason there is an Iraqi Kurdistan now. As you mentioned there were already Jews living there, and others had already been moving into to the area even before the WW's, so saying they should stay in other countries not only denies the "currant" Jewish citizens their right to self determination but is a "not in my back yard" attitude. "The Jews can have their own community just not here."

Once again, blaming their presence for others killing them is the same as an abuser blaming the victim for making him mad. "If you didn't make me mad I wouldn't hurt you/if you didn't live here I wouldn't have to kill you." I call bull.

I've had my say and after this I have nothing else to contribute to the discussion. From where I sit it looks like an impossible situation. I think it was not a well thought out decision and was doomed to failure from the get go. You simply can't do such a thing and not expect there to be trouble. Did European Jews have a right to settle there? Well I think anyone has a right to settle anywhere on the planet they choose so long as they respect the people already there and want to be a part of the society and contribute. Moving in and taking over.... Just doesn't fly in anyones book no matter where in the world it is, or how you try to rationalize it. As for Armenia, they didn't create a new state. Present day Armenia is what is left of the original Armenian state. The rest of it was grabbed up and is now a part of Turkey.

As for Jewish rights. They were citizens in the countries in Europe they were born in. Should the USA send all the Jews to live in Israel since they have their own country? Or should we respect and protect their rights as United States citizens? I think that those rights should have been protected right where they were. As a person of African descent, I am not 100% safe. I can be shot and killed by the police at anytime and have had to stare down the barrel of a cops gun, been assaulted by them and a whole host of abuses i don't care to go into. Should I shuv off back to Africa and create my own state ignoring the rights and aspirations of people there? Or do I stay right here and fight for my rights? Or how about all Jamaican Americans like me move back to Jamaica. Lots of us have done just that. But how about instead of just moving back we decided to declair our own government when the British ended colonial rule? How do you think that would fly with native born Jamaicans? After all, didn't we originally come from Jamaica? The old ones can still live there of course. Its just that we would controle the government, the island's resources and land that's all. We'd even write a constitution giving them citizenship. Do you think the Jamaicans would be happy with that? How about we split the Island 50/50. We keep the Eastern half, (with Kingston as the capital of course. They can keep the western half and make Mobay their capital. Would they be happy? All i'm saying is people are people anywhere you go. It has nothing to do with religion when all is said and done. Its about human relations. There shouldn't have been any need for Jews to leave the lands of their births in Europe to go somewhere else to live in security. The answer to that problem however is not go go somewhere else and take it over and create your own state. Key point here: THERE WERE ALREADY PEOPLE LIVING THERE. I'm sorry, but you don't just ignore that fact and plow ahead totally disregarding the aspirations of the people living there, especially when its glaringly obvious that what they wanted was to throw off the yoke of colonial rule and govern themselves. All the arguments in the world don't change the fact that there will be trouble. At the very least, they should have pushed to be a part of the new post Ottoman state and the powers that be should have set up a democratic secular state with a constitution protecting everybodies right who were actually born there or were naturalized citizens.... kind of like we have in the USA....


As for Liberia, bad decision and for the same reason. What about the people who were alreafy living there? No matter the claim, why should the people living in the area give over control of government, land and resources to a group of people born in another country? Everyone is attached to the land they and their forefounders were born in. Its this basic realization that is at the heart of the problem right from the beginning. I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but I'm just looking at the situation pragmatically. As long as human beings are human beings this sort of scenario will not work anywhere and I know of nowere where it has worked.

Can you imagine if African Americans wanted to create a Black state in the USA? What if they wanted a small one like Rhode Island? How do you think that would fly with the White people living there? Do you think they would feel secure that their rights and property would be respected and protected in a "BLACK" nation where every Afro American had an automatic right to relocate? Where are you going to put them? The land is already populated. Just the logistics of that alone is problematic. Who do you think would be given preferential treatment in a "Black nation", where the primary criteria for citizenship is blackness? What if South Africa had declared itself a Black African nation after apartide? Would that have worked?

What it all boils down to however, is whether or not it was a good or bad idea back then, the fact is that there are now people who were born in the Jewish state and they have no other home to go to. So, its not like you can now say, "sorry boys, there's been a bit of a mixup, kindly shove off now". And you have a population of Christians and Muslims who are the legitimate direct descendants of peoples who have always lived there from before Christ, but they are treated as second class citizens without any rights by a state that does not recognize them. Its tragic. But how you slove such a problem beats the hell out of me. Its like getting bubble gum on your fingers... except in this case oil would make the problem much worse rather than solving it. At the end of the day, I don't want to see anyone living there suffer, but whether right or wrong, the Palestinian people there are suffering in ways that most Israelis are not, sorry, been there, seen it, experienced it first hand, and that is not a good thing for the future of either people, no matter which side they're on.
 
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Tarik Sultan

New member
This is something of a two way (or two faced) street. All of the other Arab nations encourage the Palestinians to hate the Jews as fellow and brother Arabs to the Palestinians and yet they don't do a thing to help the Palestinians in that they will not accept them when they want to relocate to another Arab land.

They didn't encourage Palestinians to hate Jews. The creation of the Jewish State did that. What those governments have been doing is exploiting the situation for their own benifits at the expense of the Palestinians. The fact that they are all totally despotic should not be held against the Palestinians. There's a reason why the peoples of those countries are revolting. If that's the way they treat their own citizens, what do you expect them to do to outsiders? They are just part of the problem. So if you're being ignored and used and abused by everyone, including your so-called friends... well do you see how that might motivate a person to behave in unpleasant antisocial ways? Certainly doesn't make for polite dinner guest does it?
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
I think this is an interesting documentary by a respected travel writer.

It gives a glimpse into the life of both sides on the West bank.

YouTube - Louis Theroux The Ultra Zionists - Part 1-2 Documentary on Jewish Zionist
I took the time to watch that. I found it sad. The saddest part was how the Palestinian children were encouraged to hate the Jews. Everywhere they went the children were throwing rocks at people and the adults only response was "it's the Jews fault." No wonder they grow up and shoot people.

What it all boils down to however, is whether or not it was a good or bad idea back then, the fact is that there are now people who were born in the Jewish state and they have no other home to go to. So, its not like you can now say, "sorry boys, there's been a bit of a mixup, kindly shove off now". And you have a population of Christians and Muslims who are the legitimate direct descendants of peoples who have always lived there from before Christ, but they are treated as second class citizens without any rights by a state that does not recognize them. Its tragic.

Yes it is.

They didn't encourage Palestinians to hate Jews.
Tarik, the rest of your statement starting with "What those governments..." says that they have been doing exactly that. What is a Palestinian supposed to think when their supposed allies tells them "you're not wanted here, the Jews have your land, go get it back"? Warm and fuzzy thoughts?



The bottom line is that there is an awful lot of hate in the picture. There won't be peace because every time the weapons are put down someone who hates the Jews takes advantage of the situation to kill more of them and the whole cycle just restarts. They are there, they're not going away, the only way they will be gone is if someone kills them. In the meantime the Palestinians are being treated by crap as well so it just keeps getting worse. The biggest problem I see though is simply the inability of anyone to just take responsibility for their own actions. The hate will never go away until everyone stops saying "they did it first/worst" and says "I did it and it was wrong" instead. I'm not holding my breath.


"Just because one side is wrong does not make the other automatically right. Each sides actions speak for themselves."
 

Belly Love

New member
Wow. These children growing up with so much fear being surrounded by so much hate... so much anger. Many people wanting to retaliate but many people wanting peace. I'm going to watch the vid posted so I can be a bit more informed.

I must say though, I have no sympathy for those who murder the innocent on purpos, especially children. It doesn't matter if something was done horribly wrong to you, if you retaliate by harming someone else, you are not in the right and you never will be.

I think this is an interesting documentary by a respected travel writer.

It gives a glimpse into the life of both sides on the West bank.

YouTube - Louis Theroux The Ultra Zionists - Part 1-2 Documentary on Jewish Zionist
 
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Tarik Sultan

New member
Tarik, the rest of your statement starting with "What those governments..." says that they have been doing exactly that. What is a Palestinian supposed to think when their supposed allies tells them "you're not wanted here, the Jews have your land, go get it back"? Warm and fuzzy thoughts?

Well... I don't know. What is a peron to feel when their country has been taken over by another entity that doesn't recognize them as being native to the land they and their ancestors have lived on for thousands of years? Warm and fuzzy thoughts. The point is whether or not foreign governments were in the picture there was still going to be resentment and hatred. Human relations and human nature is what it is. You can't expect them to have felt happy about the situation. That's just not realistic.

The bottom line is that there is an awful lot of hate in the picture. There won't be peace because every time the weapons are put down someone who hates the Jews takes advantage of the situation to kill more of them and the whole cycle just restarts.

Or the Israeli government continues to create settlements in the West Bank in territory that is supposed to belong to the Palestinian State. Or an Israeli, kills or beats a Palestinian... Its not a one sided issue of "those Palestinians always mess up". Its just that sort of denial which is at the heart of the problem. At the end of the day, Israel has far more might than all the Palestinias put together. When was the last time a Palestinian bulldozed an Israeli home? And are Arabs allowed to live in those settlements with all the modern convieniences? I don't think so. Do Israelis have to go through check points? I don't think so. Do Palestinians walk the streets of Israel armed to the teeth? That's not what I saw when I was there and at a time when Palestinians had no fire arms or rockets, or anythinng but slings and stones to fight with. Rocks and slings against ozzies, tanks, tear gas, attack dogs, water cannons, unmanned guided drone missle shooters. Seemes a litle uneven to me. Even today that some of them have gotten acess to fire arms, they still are no match.

They are there, they're not going away, the only way they will be gone is if someone kills them. In the meantime the Palestinians are being treated by crap as well so it just keeps getting worse. The biggest problem I see though is simply the inability of anyone to just take responsibility for their own actions. The hate will never go away until everyone stops saying "they did it first/worst" and says "I did it and it was wrong" instead. I'm not holding my breath.


"Just because one side is wrong does not make the other automatically right. Each sides actions speak for themselves."

Never said that it was. But I can certainly understand why a people who have been pushed to their limits would one day stand up and react violently. It all goes back to human relations. If you treat people in a certain way, they will react in a certain way. If there were a group of people that always wanted to kill me... well maybe I'd have to ask if there was anything that I did to contribute to that. Putting it on foreign governments telling them to hate Israel makes no sense. Young people in the prime of their lives don't go strapping bombs on their backs because some Syrian politician tells them to hate Jews. If only life were that simple....
 

Amulya

Moderator
I am going to watch that video and I liked reading all the different input people posted here. So much food for thought.

It would be as if the descendants of Africans decided to move back to Africa and create their own state... Oh wait... that did happen. Its called Libiria, I think we all know what a smashing success that turned out to be....

No worse: all people will have to move to Africa, after all that's were humans came from. What a busy continent that would be!
 
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Ariadne

Well-known member
@Belly Love: Do watch the video. When it gets to the parts about the Jews "buying homes" and then being accused of "stealing" them keep in mind that Palestinians who admit to selling to Jews have been murdered for it so it is literally impossible to know what has really happened.


In fact an inability to get unbiased reports is my biggest issue with trying to get an accurate picture of what is going on there. Videos like this, YouTube - BBC Ethics Unveiled: Lies About Jerusalem, Lies About Guidelines (disclaimer, link provided to me by a pro-Israel friend) highlight just how one sided the information can be.


Or the Israeli government continues to create settlements in the West Bank in territory that is supposed to belong to the Palestinian State. Or an Israeli, kills or beats a Palestinian... Its not a one sided issue of "those Palestinians always mess up".
I never said it was one sided I was referring specifically to the way every time a cease fire is called it is broken by either Hamas and/or Hezbollah lobbing missiles at Israel. It's like they think that "stop firing" means "try harder".

Putting it on foreign governments telling them to hate Israel makes no sense.
Not as the only reason no but it is still a contributing factor and one that has to be faced in order for change to occur. This isn't just an issue of Israel vs Palestine but ingrained hatred against their very existence by a number of Arab nations and factions. Maybe if some of these other nations would help the Palestinians with resettlement of their own it could settle down (*cough* give Palestine it's land back *cough*). I don't see that happening though considering all the speeches about annihilating the Jews, how God wants them to die, how they are dogs and pigs. That isn't the speech of tolerance and love.

Do Israelis have to go through check points? I don't think so. Do Palestinians walk the streets of Israel armed to the teeth? That's not what I saw when I was there and at a time when Palestinians had no fire arms or rockets, or anythinng but slings and stones to fight with.
The way I've heard it every time the Palestinians have those things they use them to kill Jews. Every time they remove checkpoints more are smuggled in and used. As you said it's not a one sided issue. Yes it sucks, so what are the Palestinians doing to stop the people smuggling in the weapons and using them?



You know... this happens on just about every serious subject with us doesn't it? You and I hash out a subject thoroughly. It's nice to discuss things with someone who thinks through the entire thing even if we don't always agree.
 

Nejmeh

New member
Ok, just looked trough the tread, will read everything closely now, but my first reaction is that those vid`s need some perspective...

Hebron, which means its in the middle of westbank, at a Israeli checkpoint. It`s in the middle of the city, somewhere in the middle of the street, to mark of a particular area where settlers moved in

YouTube - Palestinian teenager being held as human shield
YouTube - Watch how israeli settlers treat the palestinian children (part 1)
YouTube - Settler drives into Palestinian boys ?????? ???????? ???? ??? ???????
YouTube - Life in Hebron

You can find the same kind of video`s about Jenin, Ramallah, Gaza.

I`ll react on the rest later.
 

Nejmeh

New member
Not really. The area was already growing well before that with migrants of all kinds including both Jews and Arabs. The growth was caused by an ongoing migration of Jews moving back into the area on their own, being productive, which then encouraged other growth and commerce. This growth continued up to post WWI.

And that immigration started with the idea of zionism, which could certainly be ascribed as Israeli nationalism, or at least a reaction on it. However, it is true there where european and russian jews immigrating, there were relatively little problems. There are many casestudy`s where the arab population of israel and immigrants helped eachother, not only in finding and making a living but also in fighting Britain.

The root started pre-WWII as Arab nationalists who were rebelling against foreign rule found allies in Germany. The leaders of this movement were trained by the German SS and engaged in the same atrocities in the Middle-east as Germany did in Europe. One of these Arab leaders while living in Germany during the war became personally involved in the Holocaust. The anti-Jew movement in the Middle-east can be traced to this beginning as from the get go they stirred up public sentiment against them, even stating right at the ending of WWII that the reports of the Holocaust were greatly exaggerated and were being inflated for political reasons. One of their leaders even came out in a speech and said that it was important that they deny any holocaust at all and manipulate public opinion against the Jews since it would be more effective that fighting them. Many of the currant dictators in the Middle-east have credible links with this faction (several Nazi war criminals fled to the middle-east post WWII where they were given refuge) and "Mein Kampf" is still a best selling book there.

I wont deny there were several Palestinians who took the wrong side. Then again, the biggest nazi had a jewish background, so did several others. Individuals are not representative for a community is imo the lesson in this. Important is also to recognize that the palestinian people where even more divided then now, it was a tribal society, that means several spokesmen, for which not all can be hold accounted for.
You point out 'mein kampf'is best selling book, I seriously wouldn`t know. I would like to point out that in Israel and Westbank there are graffiti`s all over the place making lines like 'all arabs to the gaschamber`s'.
That being said, I think you are pointing out one of the biggest sensitivities of the issue, the necessary recognition of the immense suffering of the Jewish people in Wo2.

What you are talking about is called called shielding and it is a well documented tactic by both Hamas and Hezbollah to both store ammunitions under schools and hospitals and to shoot artillery and build gun emplacements from those locations as well. It's a "win/win" tactic since if Israel refrains from counter attacking because of the location they get to attack with impunity but if they counter them then they get to claim Isreal is targeting civilians. It's the sort of tactic only someone who considers civilians and children expendable would use. So not only do they have a history of targeting Israeli children with bombs etc but they target their own children with these types of tactics as well.

Uhm, could you make references in this case? The commision who researched the whole thing just admitted there where more warcrimes done by both sides then they initially thought, I believe that commision was Un sanctionized, for me thats pretty reliable. Besides that, there are many other records to be found that state that the using civilians as shields is highly overexcausurated (uh, amulya help me, overdreven!)

Reputation: 106

It isn't irrelevant unless the constitution of the new state does not allow equal rights to those of the other religions mentioned. No matter what the population is they can choose to stay or go if they are recognized as citizens. There was even another state set aside for those who did not want to live there. The majority of it was not taken by Israel but by other Arab countries when they failed to conquer Israel. I agree that arbitrary boundries set by outside forces are asking for trouble, we have a multitude of example of that since WWII and not just in the middle east, but you cannot place the blame of Palestinian refugee camps on Israel since they were not the ones who created them.

Just to be clear, are you suggesting Jewish and Palestinian have same rights and more important, the same opportunities?
In westbank 75% of all men under 25 have been imprisoned sometimes in their lives, without ever knowing charges, the refugee camps in westbank itself cannot develop because of israeli law, people from westbank are being excluded from even visiting Israel(which is important for both religious as social reasons). I`ve been there, I`ve had children of almost 12 crawl in my arms because those strike fighters where flying across the camps at a hight where you could see the pilot. I`ve seen grown men cry when I showed them pictures(!) of Jeruzalem, because they couldn`t go. Travelling in westbank is whole other venture since you encounter checkpoints at least every 15 minutes, at which you can at least expect to wait for about another 15 minutes. On the other hand, there are roads running right across westbank to link settlement to settlement, which can only be used by israeli cars.
I think at the moment a very interesting voice is being presented by breaking the silence, an organisation of (ex) Israeli military people. Breaking The Silence - Israeli soldiers talk about the occupied territories They talk about their work in the occupied territories.
 

Greek Bonfire

Well-known member
They didn't encourage Palestinians to hate Jews. The creation of the Jewish State did that. What those governments have been doing is exploiting the situation for their own benifits at the expense of the Palestinians. The fact that they are all totally despotic should not be held against the Palestinians. There's a reason why the peoples of those countries are revolting. If that's the way they treat their own citizens, what do you expect them to do to outsiders? They are just part of the problem. So if you're being ignored and used and abused by everyone, including your so-called friends... well do you see how that might motivate a person to behave in unpleasant antisocial ways? Certainly doesn't make for polite dinner guest does it?

Tarik, this is more of what I meant only I couldn't find the right words. This and everything else you've said I couldn't agree with more. In fact, for example, I have known of Jews who went to Israel/Palestine and came back here because they considered themselves more to be Americans than Israelis.

Unfortunately, the innocent are getting caught between what governments are doing for their own selfish gain. In fact, I do not believe that the Zionists or the Muslim Extremists want peace but want to fight and kill for its own sake.
 
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Ariadne

Well-known member
Uhm, could you make references in this case?
It shouldn't be that hard to look up? I've read about it for at least 10 years now and everything I've seen backs it up. If I have time later though I'll try and find the original article I read on the subject.

Just to be clear, are you suggesting Jewish and Palestinian have same rights and more important, the same opportunities?
No, I am saying;
  1. That the squeeze occurring on Palestine is coming from two directions not one.
  2. That the second direction of pressure from the Arab states is not irrelevant.
  3. That Israeli laws need to protect the rights of other religions to practice their religions.
All the things you have listed were not a part of that point but another subject and one I hoped someone would bring up, equal rights under the laws. It is a serious issue and one that needs to be addressed.

It's just when I hear people say that Jews don't belong there at all but should go back to the European countries they came from I want to smack my forehead. Likewise when someone tries to claim it's solely about Palestinian rights and Israeli Zionism I want to smack their head because you cannot take the situation out of the setting which is the entire middle east. Maybe if they lived on an island like Ireland that could be true but when you have Arab countries smuggling in weapons and artillery (did you see the load they intercepted last month?) then there is definitely outside forces at play and they cannot be ignored.


Unfortunately, the innocent are getting caught between what governments are doing for their own selfish gain. In fact, I do not believe that the Zionists or the Muslim Extremists want peace but want to fight and kill for its own sake.

Unfortunate but true.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
tarik, this is more of what i meant only i couldn't find the right words. This and everything else you've said i couldn't agree with more. In fact, for example, i have known of jews who went to israel/palestine and came back here because they considered themselves more to be americans than israelis.

Unfortunately, the innocent are getting caught between what governments are doing for their own selfish gain. In fact, i do not believe that the zionists or the muslim extremists want peace but want to fight and kill for its own sake.

bingo!
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
I am somewhat surprised (although not really) that directly under this discussion is a link/advertisement that says:

"Protect peace in the Middle East. Support Israel."
 
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