Israel & Palestine

[Tarik Sultan]

It's just when I hear people say that Jews don't belong there at all but should go back to the European countries they came from I want to smack my forehead.

I'm not suggesting European Jews should not have been allowed to move to Palestine if they wanted to. What I'm saying, is that they shouldn't have had to be put in a situation where they felt they HAD to go somewhere else to find security. Their rights should have been protected in the homelands of their births. Its sad that those European nations dropped the ball on that issue. Personally, I suspect that they quite liked the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine because they hoped the whole lot would pack up and move there to be someone elses problem. I think what happened to Jews in Europe is an important key in all of this. Had there been justice in Europe there would have never been the need for such a thing as Zionism in the first place.

Likewise when someone tries to claim it's solely about Palestinian rights and Israeli Zionism I want to smack their head because you cannot take the situation out of the setting which is the entire middle east. Maybe if they lived on an island like Ireland that could be true but when you have Arab countries smuggling in weapons and artillery (did you see the load they intercepted last month?) then there is definitely outside forces at play and they cannot be ignored.

When people are not given propper recourse to solve their grievences they will ultimately resort to extreem measure and be vulnerable to those seeking to exploit their frustrations for their own agendas.


Unfortunate but true.

 

[Ariadne]

I'm not suggesting European Jews should not have been allowed to move to Palestine if they wanted to. What I'm saying, is that they shouldn't have had to be put in a situation where they felt they HAD to go somewhere else to find security. Their rights should have been protected in the homelands of their births. Its sad that those European nations dropped the ball on that issue. Personally, I suspect that they quite liked the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine because they hoped the whole lot would pack up and move there to be someone elses problem. I think what happened to Jews in Europe is an important key in all of this. Had there been justice in Europe there would have never been the need for such a thing as Zionism in the first place.


When people are not given propper recourse to solve their grievences they will ultimately resort to extreem measure and be vulnerable to those seeking to exploit their frustrations for their own agendas.

Agreed 100%

 

[Nejmeh]

@gisela yes, thank you!

It shouldn't be that hard to look up? I've read about it for at least 10 years now and everything I've seen backs it up. If I have time later though I'll try and find the original article I read on the subject.

There is enough information to look up, my point is that thats not what I heard/read/understood. No need to find the actual article, just wondering towards the source(usa university, The times, Al hagala)

No, I am saying;

1. That the squeeze occurring on Palestine is coming from two directions not one.
   totally agree, the arab 'brothers'have done a lot of harm
   
2. That the second direction of pressure from the Arab states is not irrelevant.
   Also totally agree, but its not the most important issue to adress imo
   
3. That Israeli laws need to protect the rights of other religions to practice their religions.

Yes is should do that, but does it?

All the things you have listed were not a part of that point but another subject and one I hoped someone would bring up, equal rights under the laws. It is a serious issue and one that needs to be addressed.

It's just when I hear people say that Jews don't belong there at all but should go back to the European countries they came from I want to smack my forehead. Likewise when someone tries to claim it's solely about Palestinian rights and Israeli Zionism I want to smack their head because you cannot take the situation out of the setting which is the entire middle east. Maybe if they lived on an island like Ireland that could be true but when you have Arab countries smuggling in weapons and artillery (did you see the load they intercepted last month?) then there is definitely outside forces at play and they cannot be ignored.




Unfortunate but true.

There are outside forces at play, there have been for as long as this conflict has been going on. Somehow, that seems to be the sad faith of the land. I have serious doubts about the intentions and reasons for the other countries to ´help´ and I know their is common mistrust amongst palestinians against other arabs. And those outside forces are playing on both hands, America and Israel is the same thing in the view of most palestinians and arabs. You are right, you cannot view the situation in Israel without being aware of the situation in the whole middle east. But you can also not view at the situation in the m.e. without viewing at Israel, it goes both ways.
And yes, I saw, just as I saw the bombing about a week ago. Let me be very clear about this, I hate all sort of violence and I strongly disagree with the armed resistance idea. And I will never suggest Jews dont belong in Israel, they belong there, just as much as palestinians belong there.

 

[Nejmeh]

I am somewhat surprised (although not really) that directly under this discussion is a link/advertisement that says:

"Protect peace in the Middle East. Support Israel."

I got something about praying 15 minutes a day for Israel...:think:

 

[Ariadne]

There is enough information to look up, my point is that thats not what I heard/read/understood. No need to find the actual article, just wondering towards the source(usa university, The times, Al hagala)

I think the first article I read on the subject was either from USA or NEWSweek but I'm not sure since it's been years. I do know they were Associated Press articles though. Recently everything has gotten so spun out of recognition, every time I fact check a report I find major flaws in the reporting, that I just don't believe any of it unless it consists of the bare facts.

 

[khanjar]

Firstly Jews and Zionists are different, yes, I know Zionists are mostly Jews, but not all Jews are Zionists, there is a very important difference one that needs to be recognised. I have no problems with anyone who wishes to live in peace and harmony with all the other differences in the world, but I do have a problem with those that won't and furthermore, I will not accept claims to land based upon things that cannot be proved.

Now the chap I am linking below I never had a great deal of liking for, but when I heard the speech he made, my estimation changed in a heartbeat, this guy earned my complete respect ;

Sir Gerald Kaufman, A righteous amongst The Jews and member of the British Parliament speaks

And another speech by the ever lovable George Galloway on Britain being the authors of Tragedy

 

[khanjar]

I'm not suggesting European Jews should not have been allowed to move to Palestine if they wanted to. What I'm saying, is that they shouldn't have had to be put in a situation where they felt they HAD to go somewhere else to find security. Their rights should have been protected in the homelands of their births. Its sad that those European nations dropped the ball on that issue. Personally, I suspect that they quite liked the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine because they hoped the whole lot would pack up and move there to be someone elses problem. I think what happened to Jews in Europe is an important key in all of this. Had there been justice in Europe there would have never been the need for such a thing as Zionism in the first place.

Likewise when someone tries to claim it's solely about Palestinian rights and Israeli Zionism I want to smack their head because you cannot take the situation out of the setting which is the entire middle east. Maybe if they lived on an island like Ireland that could be true but when you have Arab countries smuggling in weapons and artillery (did you see the load they intercepted last month?) then there is definitely outside forces at play and they cannot be ignored.

When people are not given propper recourse to solve their grievences they will ultimately resort to extreem measure and be vulnerable to those seeking to exploit their frustrations for their own agendas.


Unfortunate but true.

Yes, that was always something I wondered at, why was it those displaced due to Germany's actions during WW2 did not go back to their homelands as is the norm for any other post conflict situation, I mean the threat/oppression has been removed, what's the problem, why the difference with this set of displaced people ?

But Tarik, you are quite correct the situation in the Levant is being motivated by external forces, forces which wish to see, feed and continue the tension almost as if it is necessary policy for the stability of other countries, be that economic or political.

 

[Nejmeh]

I think the first article I read on the subject was either from USA or NEWSweek but I'm not sure since it's been years. I do know they were Associated Press articles though. Recently everything has gotten so spun out of recognition, every time I fact check a report I find major flaws in the reporting, that I just don't believe any of it unless it consists of the bare facts.

Very true, that was also why I was asking! Ok, at least I`ve got some context now, thanks!

@kanjar: you mean the Jews? Ow, I can totally understand why they didn`t want to return, their former neighboors, countrymen where the ones who send them into dead and dispair. Beside that, they weren`t welcomed back most for the time, it reminded people of what they had done.

 

[khanjar]

So what you are saying there, was despite the fact that the ruler and regime had been put down, they were representative of all the people, nazism was not just some fringe motivation, but as I said the actual mood of the people in mainland Europe ?

To remember one of the stereotypes of the Jewish is that they work hard at their businesses, such motivation I believe would have been of great help to war destroyed Europe.

As to people not wanting those they persecuted back to save their feelings, well, those who do wrong should reconcile their feelings, not hide them away or try and forget until another day. Perhaps much of the racism that exists in Europe today might not have been if the past had dealt with it's own issues instead of quietly forgetting them.

 

[Erik]

So what you are saying there, was despite the fact that the ruler and regime had been put down, they were representative of all the people, nazism was not just some fringe motivation, but as I said the actual mood of the people in mainland Europe ?

Yes, Khanjar. They were not generally wanted. They did not fit in. They were persecuted in varying degrees in Europe for centuries before Naziism existed. The US turned away an entire shipload of Jewish refugees. Various countries including your and mine found them useful, especially in the development of atomic weapons for example, but they were a people without a home, and even some of those who did care for them wanted them to have a home so they could be rid of them.

 

[khanjar]

The trouble is, Jews are being treated as a seperate culture, whereas it is expected every other culture has to integrate with each other and learn to get along, what makes them different, why the special treatment ?

And yes, I do understand the attitudes from a religion controlled past, that being religion just had to be top dog and that was that, comply or be ostracised, persecuted, destroyed etc, for no authority religious or otherwise likes people it cannot control, they present a threat that must be conquered one way or another.

But perhaps I have just answered my above question, the Jews failed to be controlled so they were expelled amongst various other actions, as to this being a right action or a wrong action, is open to interpretation, but my feelings are everyone should integrate to dilute tension, not set up enclaves to feel superior in as that eventually if not automatically creates enemies.

Perhaps the idea of Gods chosen people was not a good thing to publicise, for perhaps they have alienated themselves with their arrogance, an arrogance that is being seen today with Israeli attitudes to the outside world and those that the state persecutes the non Jews they control, the Palestinians.

The only way I can see a satisfactory end to the sitution in Israel and the Jewish problem, is for the Jews to change from within, realise they are a part of the world not seperate from it and make amends for the arrogance they have shown through history. Also adopt the attitude that although god might have given the land to the Jews, which Jews, the ones that existed at the time and their descendants or the religion itself for the former includes other semitic people of which the arabs are if any land title is to be claimed, and if not back off with the god thing, it really is not helping.

But I don't suppose they are going to do that, as no matter how tired of it all the Israelis get of it actually living the threat, there will always be others in other countries that have designs on the place, either to continue strife, or move to when they retire, for I am understanding from the Louix Theroux video, there is an awful lot of Americans or ex Americans in Israel.

 

[seona]

Yes, Khanjar. They were not generally wanted. They did not fit in. They were persecuted in varying degrees in Europe for centuries before Naziism existed. The US turned away an entire shipload of Jewish refugees. Various countries including your and mine found them useful, especially in the development of atomic weapons for example, but they were a people without a home, and even some of those who did care for them wanted them to have a home so they could be rid of them.

very true about the weapons. There was a bit of a race at the end of WW2 as to who could get there hands on Germanys technology. The Americans brought to the US nazi scienctists to help develop weapons. No doubt the British may have also.
I've looked more closely at the Balfour decleration. Arthur Balfour was a British MP and Zionist. He was heavily persuaded by a Zionist scientist who had helped Britain with weapon development during ww1.

 

[Ariadne]

The trouble is, Jews are being treated as a seperate culture, whereas it is expected every other culture has to integrate with each other and learn to get along, what makes them different, why the special treatment ?

It's not special treatment it is just what a "Jew" is. Judaism isn't just a religion it is also a culture, one with it's own laws that if you cease to follow you cease being a Jew. It's not just birthright it is covenants, promises between them and God. They will integrate all the way up to where it impacts those traditions and cultures and then it stops. I understand certain Romani groups are the same way, no matter where they live they are still Romani and always will be.

The only way I can see a satisfactory end to the sitution in Israel and the Jewish problem, is for the Jews to change from within, realise they are a part of the world not seperate from it and make amends for the arrogance they have shown through history.

Wow, ummm yeah. What you are suggesting hits so many tag words in their religion for evil it's not funny. One, if they change they cease to be Jews or to live up to their covenants with God and since that sin is supposed to be why they were allowed to be driven out from Israel in the first place... Two, "the world" is a phrase scripturally that means the domain of Lucifer/Satan. To be "a part of the world" means putting themselves into his power instead of Gods so they are totally fine with not being a part of that. Three, when your scriptures say God himself said you are a chosen people then to say otherwise is to deny God, to agree is faith not arrogance. It takes an awful lot of faith to continue living by those covenants when you know people will consider you arrogant and hate you for it.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Very true, that was also why I was asking! Ok, at least I`ve got some context now, thanks!

@kanjar: you mean the Jews? Ow, I can totally understand why they didn`t want to return, their former neighboors, countrymen where the ones who send them into dead and dispair. Beside that, they weren`t welcomed back most for the time, it reminded people of what they had done.

And if you ask me, they should have told their old neighbors, tough toe nails, I'm back, deal with it! The Jews are not the only people to have faced atrocity. The Tutsis in Rwanda, Catholica and Protestants in Northern Ireland, the Serbians, or the general melt down of the former Yugoslavia,(spelling?), Afro Americans have been routinly set upon time and again, the massacres in New York City during the civil war carried out by their neighbors, the Tulsa Oklahoma massacre in the early 1900's where the thriving black community was massacred by the white residence. The list goes on and on. When people suggest to me, as a person of African descent, that we should relocate to somewhere in Africa, my reply is that my ancestors gave their blood, sweat and tears to build the countries we now live in for hundreds of yers. The very soil is fertilized with our flesh and blood and I'll be damned if I just walk away from all that! They should have gone back because none of those countries would have been what they were without them. They should have gone back and made the bastards pay to rebuild their homes and compensate for the damage and loss of their property and if they needed to form melitias to protect their rights and property, so be it! But to go to another country and cause another group of people to suffer loss and heart ach because of what was done to you somewhere else? Doesn't sit well with me. But like I said before, what's done is done, now what. If this were 1940 and you asked me should it have been created?.... Just like I told my friend when she was contemplating having an affair with my other friend who was married.... and like I told him, HELL NO, DON'T DO IT! They didn't listen, she got knocked up, he claimed it wasn't his, the wife found out, he left her, the wife left him, the kids got all screwed up, the boy's grades dropped, he started haning with gangs selling drugs, the girl started sleeping around..... in other words a big mess. That's kind of how I see Israel. A big mess. But its like they say, having an abortion is not an option after the baby's been born.

 

[Nejmeh]

Oef, besides a distingishing between Zionist and Jews, I think it`s wise to introduce the distinguisment between a religious Jew and a secular Jew. Both are Jewish, considered as such by both the religious law as by legal law. The only real thing that makes you a Jew is having a jewish mom, decent is more then enough.

As for religion, two things; the migration towards Israel was initially a thing done mainly by secularist, not the religious groups. Secondly, yes, it says in the Thorah the Old Israel is destined for the Jewish people. One condition however, their Messiah has to come down and give it to them. Their are very orthodox Jews who find the whole idea of the current state of israel a big heresy towards God.

@ kanjar: yes, wo2 was a war(as are much wars imo) which was only possible because the mayority of europe either assisted or looked the other way. So yes, I can imagine them not trusting europeans in general no more. Not right morally, but understandable.

 

[Nejmeh]

And if you ask me, they should have told their old neighbors, tough toe nails, I'm back, deal with it! The Jews are not the only people to have faced atrocity. The Tutsis in Rwanda, Catholica and Protestants in Northern Ireland, the Serbians, or the general melt down of the former Yugoslavia,(spelling?), Afro Americans have been routinly set upon time and again, the massacres in New York City during the civil war carried out by their neighbors, the Tulsa Oklahoma massacre in the early 1900's where the thriving black community was massacred by the white residence. The list goes on and on. When people suggest to me, as a person of African descent, that we should relocate to somewhere in Africa, my reply is that my ancestors gave their blood, sweat and tears to build the countries we now live in for hundreds of yers. The very soil is fertilized with our flesh and blood and I'll be damned if I just walk away from all that! They should have gone back because none of those countries would have been what they were without them. They should have gone back and made the bastards pay to rebuild their homes and compensate for the damage and loss of their property and if they needed to form melitias to protect their rights and property, so be it! But to go to another country and cause another group of people to suffer loss and heart ach because of what was done to you somewhere else? Doesn't sit well with me. But like I said before, what's done is done, now what. If this were 1940 and you asked me should it have been created?.... Just like I told my friend when she was contemplating having an affair with my other friend who was married.... and like I told him, HELL NO, DON'T DO IT! They didn't listen, she got knocked up, he claimed it wasn't his, the wife found out, he left her, the wife left him, the kids got all screwed up, the boy's grades dropped, he started haning with gangs selling drugs, the girl started sleeping around..... in other words a big mess. That's kind of how I see Israel. A big mess. But its like they say, having an abortion is not an option after the baby's been born.

@tarik: hey, I agree with the should-ve/ could-ve thing. But as you say yourselves, you cannot post abort, whats done is done. But as a human being, I can understand why the jewish people wanted away. It takes a lot of guts to return your children amongst people from who you believe want them dead.
But, and on that point we again can rejoin, I don`t believe one`s safety and wanting should be at the expense of others. And it did, in ways the international world is only recently recognizing

 

[khanjar]

Yes, what is done is done, it's history, but we do not need to bring the history into the future for if we did, well what hope for humanity, instead of going forward into a brave new world of hope and aspiration, it is still stiuck chasing it's tail revisiting the same old, same old atrocities that we have come to know ad finitum, there is a better way, it's called live and let live.

But of all the bad we hear come out of Israel, we never seem to hear about the good, for it is there, there are Israeli Jews campaigning to stop the zionist expansion into Palestinian territories, for they can well see what is happening and it is not Godly, for in Israel, there is an evil in some people. What the zionists are actually doing, is furthering their agendas by putting their own people in jeapody, the immigrants one so often hears about taking over Palestinian homes, they are put there as bait, bait to instill an uprising that will give reason for massive military punishment to the offenders who just happen to be Palestinian.

Honestly, one would think given the way the Nazis treated the Jews, they would have been totally against that sort of treatment, but Israel has it's own country now and guess what it is doingg, no other than oppressing others, they have learned nothing.

But as everyone knows, the key to sorting this problem out, is America, for as long as America abstains or opposes UN attempts to ease the situation, the longer it will continue, so maybe the current situation could be put at the feet of America when seeking reason why nothing positive is happening with the situation.

And what do we have from that, but another reason certain combatitive mentalities target the citizens of the United states for retribution for the actions of their protecting government.

 

[charlieL]

Yes, what is done is done, it's history, but we do not need to bring the history into the future for if we did, well what hope for humanity, instead of going forward into a brave new world of hope and aspiration, it is still stiuck chasing it's tail revisiting the same old, same old atrocities that we have come to know ad finitum, there is a better way, it's called live and let live.

But of all the bad we hear come out of Israel, we never seem to hear about the good, for it is there, there are Israeli Jews campaigning to stop the zionist expansion into Palestinian territories, for they can well see what is happening and it is not Godly, for in Israel, there is an evil in some people. What the zionists are actually doing, is furthering their agendas by putting their own people in jeapody, the immigrants one so often hears about taking over Palestinian homes, they are put there as bait, bait to instill an uprising that will give reason for massive military punishment to the offenders who just happen to be Palestinian.

Honestly, one would think given the way the Nazis treated the Jews, they would have been totally against that sort of treatment, but Israel has it's own country now and guess what it is doingg, no other than oppressing others, they have learned nothing.

But as everyone knows, the key to sorting this problem out, is America, for as long as America abstains or opposes UN attempts to ease the situation, the longer it will continue, so maybe the current situation could be put at the feet of America when seeking reason why nothing positive is happening with the situation.

And what do we have from that, but another reason certain combatitive mentalities target the citizens of the United states for retribution for the actions of their protecting government.

The israelis that are not zionists are the few.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

@tarik: hey, I agree with the should-ve/ could-ve thing. But as you say yourselves, you cannot post abort, whats done is done. But as a human being, I can understand why the jewish people wanted away. It takes a lot of guts to return your children amongst people from who you believe want them dead.
But, and on that point we again can rejoin, I don`t believe one`s safety and wanting should be at the expense of others. And it did, in ways the international world is only recently recognizing

I think its quite understandable why they would want to have a Jewish state. No one can blame them for that. However, can the thing be done and should it be done? Now that's where wisdom has to come in. Not only in this, but in every situation wisdom is needed to determine whether or not something should be done when you have the means to do it. What are the consequences going to be? I don't think anyone looked at the long term ramifications. They wanted something, they had the means to do it, so they did it and figured they'ed handle any fallout when they crossed that bridge. Problem is it wasn't fair. Not to their descendants who are now placed in the position of having to defend a tangled mess and not fair to the Palestinian people who have to suffer under it.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Oef, besides a distingishing between Zionist and Jews, I think it`s wise to introduce the distinguisment between a religious Jew and a secular Jew. Both are Jewish, considered as such by both the religious law as by legal law. The only real thing that makes you a Jew is having a jewish mom, decent is more then enough.

As for religion, two things; the migration towards Israel was initially a thing done mainly by secularist, not the religious groups. Secondly, yes, it says in the Thorah the Old Israel is destined for the Jewish people. One condition however, their Messiah has to come down and give it to them. Their are very orthodox Jews who find the whole idea of the current state of israel a big heresy towards God.

@ kanjar: yes, wo2 was a war(as are much wars imo) which was only possible because the mayority of europe either assisted or looked the other way. So yes, I can imagine them not trusting europeans in general no more. Not right morally, but understandable.

And while we're on that point, we should also point out a few other things #1: That this is NOT a war of Islam against Judaism and that Muslims and Jews have not been at war with each other for hundreds of years.

For one thing, a significant percentage of the Palestinian people are in fact not Muslims but Christians and they get no better treatment.

#2: Another thing that is always overlooked is that the Palestinians ARE NATIVE TO THE LAND. They didn't wander in, so calling them Arabs is misleading because it implies they are recent immigrants. They are not. They have been there for thousands and thousands of years. They are the descendants of the Cannanites and the ancient Hebrews were simply one of many Cannanite ethnic groups. So all Hebrews were Canannites, but not all Cannanites were Hebrews. However, considering that Christianity was originally a Jewish sect, that means the Palestinians are the descendants of Jews who became Christians and the Muslims are descendants of Christians and Jews who converted to Islam.

#3: The Jews were not exiled from Palestine by the Romans. There was an expulsion from Jerusalem after the distruction of the Temple, but they were free to live anywhere else they wanted to and they did. So to this day, there are communities who unlike the Zionists Jews, had never left. They had remained in place. As for those who did leave, they were not forced to do so. Even before Rome, Jews had voluntarily migrated to other countries for economic reasons. There had been considerably large Jewish communities in Alexandria and other parts of Egypt, and Arabia. Under the Romans Jews were found all across North Africa, Anatolia, even in Rome itself and as far away as India and Ethiopia.

Therefore, if they choose to leave of their own free will, is it right that they should return 2,000yrs later to displace the native population just because they no longer followed the Jewish faith? Its been said that the Tirah promised the land to the Hebrews/Jews and that if a person is not observant, they are not Jews and have no part in the covenant. And yet in Israel today a considerable amount of people are not observant. Many of them are openly athieists. Yet they are still considered Jews even though they obey non of the laws and covenants.

The whole thing smacks of colonialism no matter how you want to slice it or justify it. It wasn't a good thing when Native Americans killed European settlers, but it was understandable. They were defending themselves and their rights to not be displaced from their homes because they knew they were being displaced and they were. It wasn't nice that the Catholic Irish did the same to Protestant settlers, but once again, it was the same situation. England was selling the land out from under them and giving it to Protestant landlords and settlers who then kicked them off. The same happened in South Africa. History has shown this game being played over and over again. Hopefully, we get it now. You don't go into another person's country and create one of your own. Its not a wise idea and it never ends well.