Israel & Palestine

[Mosaic]

I have moved the thread to the sauna, it is becoming too heated as these types of political threads do. I think it is time to let this thread just die into silence as there will always be 2 sides to this story and sadly never shall the 2 meet. It is heart breaking to see humanities cruelty to one another in any form anywhere. Mankind is its own worst enemy, nothing could be sadder than that!

To be honest I just wish people wouldn't open such threads on a bellydance forum. So lets consider the show over once and for all and get back to the business of dance!
~Mosaic

 

[Nejmeh]

Ok, I won`t go into the matter no more, as asked, but I`m sitting here not quite sure how to respond right now.
As for why I opened it, it matters to me, a hell of a lot. This is not just an intellectual discussion for me. I thought off topic was for things that interested us but didn`t fit in with dance?
But ok, for me this tread is also closed, the whole thing just makes me sad. Not only because it escalated, but also because of the reaction on the escalation. As for the escalation itself, if we, in our safe homes/families/countries cannot discuss this in a civil way, how can we expect people to do that for whom this is daily life? As for the reaction, saying 'this' always goes this way so lets just not talk about it is imo a slap in the face of all the people making efforts for peace and understanding.

I would like to thank all of you who made civil contributions, I found it interesting to share thoughts with you all about this.

 

[Erik]

Nejmeh, you did nothing wrong. It was a good idea for a discussion, but like many good ideas it was sabotaged.

FWIW, I am still trying to reconcile the charge made against me. I have been called many filthy names but racist is a completely new one. I have taken many hits for not being a racist. Three years ago I was almost harrassed off my job for not being a racist. A white female coworker of mine was harrassed into leaving because she had a black boyfriend, while I watched helplessly. Fortunately (in this particular case) a homosexual had laid hands on me in front of witnesses, and I used it as blackmail to save my job, which makes it all the more ludicrous that anyone would have the ignorant temerity to call me a racist. Let him go through the same circumstances before he judges me.

Nonetheless, I still support the concept of Palestinian independence, but I still stand by my previous comment. The Palestinians are going to have to join the modern world, stop throwing their stupid rocks and playing their stupid games. If all that makes a racist, then oh well.

 

[seona]

I brought up the point about soldiers shooting kids as I can't recall it being mentioned yet. From my personal experience it's something a lot of people comment about and people I know don't find it acceptable. Ok, yes some think that it's wrong for kids to throw them, but I guess when people are opressed they will fight back, I can understand that.

I will say Erik, I didn't get what Palestinan 'rubes' where, had to google, I understand it's something along the lines of 'redneck'. You may not agree with the Danish protester, some here will. But I do understand it's a hot topic which we all have strong opinions on, emotions will take over.

Mosaic, I fully understand and respect your post, but I do feel it should be talked about, I've found the view points interesting and even though I may personally not agree with some peeps, I can at least try to see where there coming from. On the whole I've found it an interesting read and have learnt new things..... Will say I was more than surprised to see the posts about 'the red scare' , that was an interest to me that peeps have that fear! I guess you find out new things everyday!
Anyway, that's it from me also, I just wanted to say that, I won't post on this thread anymore.
Mosaic, I couldn't agree anymore with you, indeed man is his own worse enemy.

 

[Erik]

I brought up the point about soldiers shooting kids as I can't recall it being mentioned yet. From my personal experience it's something a lot of people comment about and people I know don't find it acceptable.

It has been a week and no one has accepted my challenge to show me where I wrote that it was acceptable, not that I was ever worried about it because I knew I did not write that. This is a blame shift. This is shifting the blame to the soldiers rather than to the parents who allow the children to throw the rocks. I keep trying to visualize my parents allowing me to throw rocks at armed soldiers when I was ten years old, and the picture isn't coming in. Many times in the past children have been used in a sacrificial way, and sometimes it has been effective in achieving a desired goal, but I do not believe using children to draw fire is acceptable whether it achieves the desired goal or not, and that is exactly what I saw in the video. This matter is now closed.

Ok, yes some think that it's wrong for kids to throw them, but I guess when people are opressed they will fight back, I can understand that.

I thought about sending another PM to you, but I decided to post it so that everyone could see. It will not leave me alone. It bothers me daily. Seona, with respect to you, no I do not believe that you can understand that. From your writing I imagine you as a basically kind and well-meaning person who will easily fall in with popular opinon.

I may not know anything about being oppressed for racial reasons, but I know a little something about being displaced by invaders, if that counts as oppression. The prefab Israeli community in the video.....I've seen places similar to it in real life. They sprung up like mushrooms in my town during the 1990's. They were built in places where I once roamed with freedom, but they soon became off-limits to me. I had more money then but still not enough to reside in one of these places even if I wanted to. And even if I had the money and the desire, like the Israelis they had the law to keep me out because I didn't meet the legally enforced minimum age requirement, and I still don't. They wanted to be around their own kind and not have to look at my kind; one of those laughable natives who talked with the Southern accent. As the years went by I found myself a stranger in my own land.

In the West Bank they call it Zionism. In Central Florida they call it economic growth, as if the average person was going to realize one cent of that economic growth after the cost of living tripled. You would not know anything about my displacement because it wasn't important enough for Louis Theroux to cover, but I know in my heart that neither Palestinians nor any other people could possibly love their home more than I loved mine. I was born there, and I intended to die there, instead of here in Alabama where the ground is so hard that it takes nearly all day to dig a grave.

The older Floridians escaped it by dying. The younger ones like me were faced with a choice: 1) Remain and continue to serve the invaders on bended knee, or 2) leave and try to start somewhere else. Eventually I chose the second option. It isn't exactly like home but it is close. I do not like the racism here, but as to reverse-racists who are determined to believe that I came here for segregation and klansmen rallies, they are simply wrong.

I mostly like it here, although I don't fit in and never will, but at least here I am not treated as a second-class citizen. I am trying to remember to say words like "yonder" and "reckon" instead of "there" and "guess." I have conditioned myself to say "ain't." If anyone ever cuts down the trees for shopping malls and golf courses to lure in the big Northern money, it shouldn't be until long after I am gone. In Florida I considered moving to one of several outlying smaller towns, but the writing was on the wall. Central Florida was becoming a fascist police state which catered to the wealthy elite, and I might have to make the same choice again in my fifties or sixties.

About two years ago I talked briefly online with an angry displaced Palestinian, and I explained that I had an affinity with Palestine because I am a displaced person too. I told him that I did not believe hatred was the answer, and I still don't. In my case, who am I supposed to hate? All Northerners. The elderly? Politicians? Land developers? My country? God Himself?

BTW, Seona, if you are looking for a place to spend your golden years, Florida is indeed beautiful, and they won't care if you're English or where you come from, as long as you bring lots of money. Otherwise they don't want you, except as a servant, which is what I became toward the end. Prior to the 1990's we had only tourists on vacation (holiday in your langauge) and seasonal residents (aka snowbirds). The retirees went to South Florida.

So tell me, Seona, how was I supposed to fight back? Protest? Throw rocks? Get myself arrested, and perhaps there would be some limp-headed European with an urge to be noble and get himself arrested with me?

The Palestinians are a people being displaced, just as native Central Floridians like me are being displaced, just as people have been displaced since time immemorial, and it's time to wake up and accept that fact. If there were an answer to please everyone, I think someone smarter than me would have found it by now, but I daresay that I am smart enough to know what the answer is not. It is not sending kids out to fight with a low-tech prehistoric arsenal of rocks.

 

[Darshiva]

I will ask everyone to remain civil & refrain from name calling.

I understand that this topic can be very divisive and that there are very strong arguments for both sides. That said, we are a community here - we are ONE community, and we should try to remember that and keep conversation civil, especially in such a contentious topic.

The last thing we want to happen on this forum is for people to feel that they are no longer welcome because of their beliefs, so please keep that in mind when discussing this topic.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

As a Christian I love all people, not matter where they come from. I support both sides.