Which is better?

[Buttercup]

The girl that tried so hard in the end died trying to do what that other girl did naturally and effortlessly. When you approach belly dancing as an artform ultimately, it is so much easier and you will become so much more successful...even when success does not equate with being a big star. But when you become amazing at the arts for the people you are around, that in turn teachs them a lesson in the potentials of humaness and human potential.

THis is alright to an extent but they don't know how to use the right brain. The arts are whole brained. When learning, you first come from the left brain to do a quick analytical, sequencial observance and then shift to the right to 'feel' what you have learned so that you 'understand it'. It takes a moment of pause to take it in. Then there is the repetition to ingrain the moves physiologically as well as in your subconscious and, as well, consciously continue to "ah ha" the understanding to evolve all of the nuance that become apparent. This latter awareness is what makes it an artform. This is when the dance becomes an unfolding lotus flower of movement.

Sometimes trying to tell this to established teachers is threatening because if they themselves aren't at this level, their students could be looking for someone who could take them further than the basic levels 1, 2, 3.

But if these teachers can successfully squash awareness that there is more to bellydance, then the true art form is not fostered in other potential artists. If this continues to be the case then the art of belly dance could be lost and become something like ballet.

 

[Kashmir]

Brain work

THis is alright to an extent but they don't know how to use the right brain. The arts are whole brained. When learning, you first come from the left brain to do a quick analytical, sequencial observance and then shift to the right to 'feel' what you have learned so that you 'understand it'. It takes a moment of pause to take it in. Then there is the repetition to ingrain the moves physiologically as well as in your subconscious and, as well, consciously continue to "ah ha" the understanding to evolve all of the nuance that become apparent. This latter awareness is what makes it an artform. This is when the dance becomes an unfolding lotus flower of movement.

Actually it is a front/back brain issue. Drilling and explicit technical work helps lay down new neural pathways for muscle control (which is why it is so important to practice correctly - undoing bad habits has to remove and reconfigure those pathways). Once you can move, the muscle control goes into the back brain and your forebrain has handle other stuff.

This method tends to be used because dancers in the west are not learning every day from childhood watching, absorbing and playing with the movements and music in a range of social situations. And frankly, many are not natural dancers and need to be taught technique and "tricks". Unfortunately, students often choose charismatic or good dancers as their teachers rather than people who know how to teach.

 

[Buttercup]

You might be right. I am not a teacher even though I have taught a few girls along the way, however, more I have been taught along the way by natural dancers and teachers. It is hard for me to understand the problems that my fellow westerners have with becoming good dancers because I am a natural. I pick-up technique almost instantly. However, one thing that, not just the west has a problem with is taking that leap to dancing through inspiration coming from the right side of the brain. That is why I am concerned about this aspect of the brain concerning BD because once the neural pathways have been laid, you have to teach the dancer what to do with that. THat is where the big problem lies.

Actually it is a front/back brain issue. Drilling and explicit technical work helps lay down new neural pathways for muscle control (which is why it is so important to practice correctly - undoing bad habits has to remove and reconfigure those pathways). Once you can move, the muscle control goes into the back brain and your forebrain has handle other stuff.

This method tends to be used because dancers in the west are not learning every day from childhood watching, absorbing and playing with the movements and music in a range of social situations. And frankly, many are not natural dancers and need to be taught technique and "tricks". Unfortunately, students often choose charismatic or good dancers as their teachers rather than people who know how to teach.

It is the same with African drumming. ONly 5 % of all drummers in Africa take formal lessons and yet look at how good they are. Of course they seem to have a more natural sense of rhythm than we whitys do but still the same when they are taught in a natural way they zoom ahead. Here in the west it is, as I said before, a real threat to the established order to accept this. And unfortunately these ugly Americans don't know what they are doing to the true arts...because they don't know what art is actually.

I enthusiastically took up drumming along with BD starting with African beats and then middle-eastern. I have had to struggle to disentangle myself from the effect of the lessons in order to become a true artist on the drum.

provided that
a) you dance among people who dance for many years and their technique is elaborated the way you would like yours to be some day
b) you spend many years dancing regularly with those people...

Actually, in a society where bellydance or oriental dance etc is not traditional, you do not have the luxury to learn the easy way, e.g. learn by doing, because all people around you dance at any occasion (f.e.x when female friends gather to tell their news and they dance in the meantime for fun). In such a setting, you may see young women of 15 or 18 years old being really "experts", e.g. their technique is also very high-level and they have never attended a formal lesson with broken-down explanations for technique etc [By the way, gypsy tribes are also like this and if you have any connection to gypsy people, even if you know just one person who is gypsy, just ask them to invite you at their feasts].

Taking lessons for bellydance but also for any dance is because you cannot learn it the easy way, e.g. within a social setting that is of everyday nature for you. In that sense, you skip the main road (learn by doing) and you learn technique to reach the level a woman who has experienced this art in its social setting might have. In other words, you take lessons because you have only one life to live and you cannot rewind it to go to a society where bellydance is traditional and live there for 10 or 15 years.

In that sense, you need technical lessons as much as dancing.

When you don't have the luxury of being brought up in an artistic middle-eastern environment then it is bonus if you can tap into the middle-eastern teacher within. That is what I do. That is when you become open to learning from beyond the 5 senses. I have actually seen an etheric middle-eastern BD teacher next to my actual teacher on the physical plane. The etheric one showed me how to do the moves correctly and with style. That is why we have to learn how to utilize the right side of our brain. Here in the west especially and those in the east who have been controlled by religion and politics have lost that ability applied to BD.

How else have I been able to keep up with the best of them when I come from a remote northern community in Canada as far away from middle-eastern culture as you can get.

It is the same with African drumming. ONly 5 % of all drummers in Africa take formal lessons and yet look at how good they are. Of course they seem to have a more natural sense of rhythm than we whitys do but still the same when they are taught in a natural way they zoom ahead. Here in the west it is, as I said before, a real threat to the established order to accept this. And unfortunately these ugly Americans don't know what they are doing to the true arts...because they don't know what art is actually.

I enthusiastically took up drumming along with BD starting with African beats and then middle-eastern. I have had to struggle to disentangle myself from the effect of the lessons in order to become a true artist on the drum.

I started learning BD over 5 years ago, I feel like I have danced not only middle-eastern dance but other ethnic dances for many lifetimes and it actually shows because how the heck do I know what i know so well?! I certainly didn't learn it from the BD dancers around me including my teacher even though they were the ones that were my superficial guides that sparked the depth within.

discussing this subject.

You know, given that i attend lessons and workshops, i am not longer the typical traditionally trained dancer. On the other hand, I really wonder how fun dance can be once you enter a realm where you need a dance resume to feel confortable while dancing with friends.

I used to be stressed about keeping my programme of practicing and drilling once i had started formal lessons and some day this stress was so suffocating that i was not willing even to move my hand and i stopped practicing for a week. I felt i wanted to throw up. After that, i realised that if i accepted the "lessons-practice-good student" attitude, i would stop dancing or i would lose its fun for ever. Only after i discarded this student mentality, i started drilling again (maybe more than previously, perhaps with better results).

And on the other hand, i really do not know what to say at the question "how many years do we need to learn bellydance?". I always reply "a life or more" and people get disappointed instead of thinking "wow, this art is a long journey that will never end". People need to know that 6 or 7 or 10 years of lessons are enough. 10 years of lessons are enough to make you apt, not enough to make you an artist.

And as you may imagine, i keep attending lessons and workshops - under the idea that this is a gathering of friends who dance all together.

I agree that is what must be done. Without some type of yoga and meditation, it is hard to reprogram yourself.

I think that a key note that some instructors miss, or do not know how to even approach teaching is that you have to progress from "doing the move technically right" to "feeling the music and the move move through your body"
It can be a very difficult concept to introduce.
I use a lot of martial arts and healing concepts in teaching, and this actually seems to help. Learning visualization and relaxation theories and exercises help to be more self-aware.

 

[Starmouth]

Buttercup, maybe you didn't mean it this way, but I am a little offended by your comment about Africans having more natural rhythm than 'whiteys'. Its a bit dangerous to start assuming certain races are inherently better at some things than others.

 

[MariaAZ]

Buttercup, do you have any videos of your dancing? For those of us that are largely self-taught it would be very inspiring to see a similarly educated dancer who has achieved a high level of expertise with little teacher-based training.

 

[Buttercup]

Don't jump at me Starmouth

I believe that African people genetically have better rhythm than we do. Not all of them but most of them. This is from 55 years of observation. I am a whitey through and through and come from a place that would allow me to see a clear contrast because we do not have many coloured people where I live and yes I have been given the thumbs up by African people for my rhythmic ability and yes there are whiteys out there that are spectacular in this department like the many rock groups from North America and England. When it comes to dance though, I don't know if it is because we have too many people taking formal dance lessons or what it is but there aren't enough good examples of white dancers with good rhythm outside the entertainment industry.

Buttercup, maybe you didn't mean it this way, but I am a little offended by your comment about Africans having more natural rhythm than 'whiteys'. Its a bit dangerous to start assuming certain races are inherently better at some things than others.

 

[Starmouth]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject, but thank you for explaining your comment.

 

[Buttercup]

I don't have a vid right now because about half a year after I got into belly dancing I got injured and then menopause hit me hard so I gained a few extra pounds which are now coming off. I didn't want to be filmed when not looking near my best even though my dancing is fine.

I should be getting a film soon though because a co-artist friend of mine just bought a really good camera so we will be utilizing it. I will get back to you after not too much of a delay with a vid hopefully.

Thanks again Maria, for asking, have a great day!!!!...Oh and how did you come upon belly dancing?

Buttercup, do you have any videos of your dancing? For those of us that are largely self-taught it would be very inspiring to see a similarly educated dancer who has achieved a high level of expertise with little teacher-based training.

...now don't take offence, but you are an overly politically correct, person in their twenties or early thirties right?
Also, where I come from we don't have problems with prejudice against people of African descent so we are not hyper-sensitive but otherwise I agree that it is good not to make racial assumptions.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject, but thank you for explaining your comment.

 

[SidraK]

Also, where I come from we don't have problems with prejudice against people of African descent...

As a fellow Canadian who also grew up in a small, northern community, I have to say this is remarkable. Bravo for your hometown!

 

[Belly Love]

And unfortunately these ugly Americans don't know what they are doing to the true arts

When you make statements like this against a whole country/continent, you sound ignorant.

First off, the current U.S. society is relatively new. We don't have centuries of customs and arts like other cultures do. We are a melting pot and have a vast mix of arts, which over time, become changed and turn into new arts. It has nothing to do with Americans not knowing what they are doing. Anytime you mix many different cultures, things like arts & customs will change over time. That's just how it is.

I believe that African people genetically have better rhythm than we do.

I don't agree. I think it's mostly one's culture/environment that causes this.

Example: Most white US citizens do not grow up in households where forms of dance music is constantly played. A great percentage of African American US citizens grow up in households that play some form of dance music on a regular basis. This type of music encourages dancing and this starts at a young age when one easily learns things like rythm.

I am a whitey through and through and come from a place that would allow me to see a clear contrast because we do not have many coloured people where I live...

What is the deal with you saying "whitey" and "colored" when referring to people? Are you not aware that these are derogatory terms and totally innapropriate to use?

I don't know if it is because we have too many people taking formal dance lessons or what it is but there aren't enough good examples of white dancers with good rhythm outside the entertainment industry.

If they are outside the entertainment industry, you are probably not seeing them. I go-go/club danced for years and almost all of the women I worked with were white and we were all good dancers. I am actually a great dancer, have always had rythm and I'm mostly white. I think I have good rythm, 'cause at a young age I started teaching myself to dance. When one learns something at a young age, it usually stays with you forever. It's harder to learn things when you are older.

Anyway, whites not having good rythm goes back to what I said earlier- dance and dance music isn't something that most white people grow up with in their households, so rythm isn't instilled in them at a young age.

you are an overly politically correct, person in their twenties or early thirties right?
Also, where I come from we don't have problems with prejudice against people of African descent so we are not hyper-sensitive but otherwise I agree that it is good not to make racial assumptions.

WTF?

I can't stand when people are overly pc, but this is nowhere near it. You keep making racial slurs over and over! You have no problem being prejudice against African people? WHAT?! Do you even know what you are saying? In the same sentence you say it's okay to be prejudice and then you say it's not good to make racial assumptions... they are the same thing. OMG.

 

[Buttercup]

Let me see

Belly Love, you are about 16 years old and are desperately wanting to be taken seriously as someone with an opinion so you come on to these forums. PLeeeeaaaassssee child, grow-up or go help your mom around the house or do some homework!

When you make statements like this against a whole country/continent, you sound ignorant.

First off, the current U.S. society is relatively new. We don't have centuries of customs and arts like other cultures do. We are a melting pot and have a vast mix of arts, which over time, become changed and turn into new arts. It has nothing to do with Americans not knowing what they are doing. Anytime you mix many different cultures, things like arts & customs will change over time. That's just how it is.



I don't agree. I think it's mostly one's culture/environment that causes this.

Example: Most white US citizens do not grow up in households where forms of dance music is constantly played. A great percentage of African American US citizens grow up in households that play some form of dance music on a regular basis. This type of music encourages dancing and this starts at a young age when one easily learns things like rythm.



What is the deal with you saying "whitey" and "colored" when referring to people? Are you not aware that these are derogatory terms and totally innapropriate to use?



If they are outside the entertainment industry, you are probably not seeing them. I go-go/club danced for years and almost all of the women I worked with were white and we were all good dancers. I am actually a great dancer, have always had rythm and I'm mostly white. I think I have good rythm, 'cause at a young age I started teaching myself to dance. When one learns something at a young age, it usually stays with you forever. It's harder to learn things when you are older.

Anyway, whites not having good rythm goes back to what I said earlier- dance and dance music isn't something that most white people grow up with in their households, so rythm isn't instilled in them at a young age.



WTF?

I can't stand when people are overly pc, but this is nowhere near it. You keep making racial slurs over and over! You have no problem being prejudice against African people? WHAT?! Do you even know what you are saying? In the same sentence you say it's okay to be prejudice and then you say it's not good to make racial assumptions... they are the same thing. OMG.

 

[SidraK]

I think what she meant was that where she's from nobody harbours prejudice against people of African descent. As I say...remarkable.

 

[Belly Love]

Belly Love, you are about 16 years old and are desperately wanting to be taken seriously as someone with an opinion so you come on to these forums. PLeeeeaaaassssee child, grow-up or go help your mom around the house or do some homework!

I cannot stop laughing


1- Educate yourself.
2- Immaturity does not flatter you.
3- Thanks for the laugh!

I think what she meant was that where she's from nobody harbours prejudice against people of African descent.

Oh, I get it. With all of the racial slurs being tossed around I took it the other way.

 

[Aniseteph]

<arguments deleted, so much WTFery I don't know where to start>

OTOH I have a creeping sense of disappointment that I probably won't get to see that clip.

'Cos I really REALLY want to see a dancer who feels all her performances are so great (what was it, better than 98% of the rest of us?), but has only been belly dancing 5 years, without benefit of a great BD teacher or an appropriate cultural environment, AND and isn't pulling the it's in my blood/genes" routine. AND is a ME drum artist. It's so rare, we should treasure it. Really.

Impending disappointment-flavoured popcorn...

 

[Shanazel]

Moderator breaking in here.

All our forum members have full status and the right to be taken seriously whatever their age, race, gender, political leanings, or style preferences.

Thank you.

 

[MariaAZ]

Thanks again Maria, for asking, have a great day!!!!...Oh and how did you come upon belly dancing?

I was surfing another forum I hang out on many years ago, and one of the members was raving about how wonderful belly dance is. At that time, I was just pushing into my 40's and feeling a bit like life had passed me by, but when I saw her video and how beautifully she moved and how happy she was when dancing, it was something I wanted for myself. It just took me almost 6 years to do something about it

 

[~Diana~]

Please people stop making me feel like I am back in junior high school surrounded by immature girls who each think that they are more mature than another. Resorting to name calling, flashing around whatever age (btw age does not equal maturity), race, gender, intelligence level, hormonal balance, ability to balance on left foot while eating a coconut and reciting Shakespeare, etc does not make you look like the more mature individual to anyone reading your messages.

This thread started off well and I hope it can be brought back to the realm of civility. If you feel the need to continue your childlike name calling, snarkyness, tit-for-tat attitudes please take it to offline to personal messages.
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Now back to the topic. I don't think there is any one better way to learn a dance form over another. Each way has benefits over the other. As you progress in your learning you should adjust they way you learn and how much you learn from each method area. I don't think any of my mentors would ever say yes 'technical' skill is better over learning by 'dancing'. I've seen videos where the dance looked more like I was watching them 'drilling' because they put to much emphasis on 'technical'. I've also seen dances were they probably would improve by spending a little less time 'dancing' putting a little more time into 'technical.'

The real good dancers, you will see them doing a blend of 'technical' and 'dance.' I would actually be very suspicious of a teacher who put no emphasis at all when it comes to the impact that technical and drills can have on ones performance.

 

[Shara]

we are in a society in which peer pressure is enormous and the INDIVIDUAL can easily and succinctly be stomped out. This is not a race or color thing. This deleting of the individual has much more far-reaching implications than you might think. I find people of all races that have no body awareness. I believe that this comes from our societies telling us that we don't hurt when we do, and that it is not okay to feel. People are having their souls stomped on by being told that what they feel is not important. We need to start appreciating individuals. I believe we should be able to describe each other as we are without people getting angry, but at the same time not use derogatory terms to do so. I also see INSENSITIVE people call SENSITIVE people OVER-SENSITIVE. Well, I'm sensitive. I hope to stay that way, because if I become insensitive, how will I feel my dance? How will I feel what others feel? How can I help them if I cannot feel? If you cannot feel, start looking for your soul..... it may be stomped into pieces, and you will need to find it and try to repair it. As for the dance, of course you need both types of instruction, or one will look like a workout and the other social dance and not performance.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

which is truly the better way to learn to bellydance, by learning move by move, what I'll call 'technique', or by dancing?

Different people learn in different ways, but think of it as learning a musical instrument. It's extremely important to be able to play each individual note properly, and to transition from one note to the next, but it's also important to learn to PLAY music, with feeling.

If you have ever had your instructor turn on music and just start moving, using simple dance moves for the students to follow, did you find it more inspiring than when doing technical stuff?

One of the things that I loved so much about bellydance when I first started learning it was that you could take a half dozen movements and actually really EXPRESS yourself through movement. It was inspiring to me to just put on music and "play" with movement.

Practicing drills and the "technical" stuff is like playing scales and arpeggios. You can't expect to be very good at playing a musical instrument without that technical stuff. But the goal behind all the technical stuff is to express the music without having to worry about posture and correct execution. Most teachers will tell you that the ultimate goal of all the practice is to give you the skills to execute the movements without thinking about them. They become internalized.

I felt lighter on my feet, more in the flow that way, whereas the mechanized step by step portion of class was of course more difficult, resulting in a ridgid movement.

That's natural, and as you get more experienced with it, those step-by-step portions of the class will stop being so rigid, and you will relax into them more. But as you learn each new thing, be aware that the first stage of learning is that awkward phase, which often feels very uncomfortable and stiff.

I guess I would just like to hear what others think of utilizing the dance to the music method during early level classes.

It can be overwhelming for some students -- especially the ones who don't particularly like learning that way. For others it's very liberating. My students are about half and half hating and loving improv. There are lots of exercises we can go to make improv less "traumatic" and sometimes we can teach very simple choreographies that allow students more room for personal interpretation and expression.

 

[SidraK]

A good friend of mine teaches martial arts and, when it comes to improv, something she told me years ago really resonates. Most martial artists will, in an actual sparring or a fighting situation, use techniques somewhat below the belt level that they test at. This is because, it's the lower level techniques that are so ingrained in muscle memory as to be instinctive.

When we improv as student dancers, we need to remember that we won't be whipping out the challenging move that we learned three weeks ago in class. It's the basic movements and layering over the basic movements that we're comfortable with that are going to come out when we improv. I think a lot of students forget that and stress about being able to integrate the really challenging stuff that we're just learning, when our performance and musicality will be much stronger when we dance within our comfort zone.