Offensive comments about self taught dancers

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I think the ability to be a strong self taught dancer largely depends on how critical ones eye is and how they can spot their own mistakes and figure out how to correct them. I also think thanks to things like Youtube we are at an advantage since we can see professional level performance whenever we want if you know what to look for. Inspiration is incredibly important.

Man you hit the nail on the head with that one.

It is VERY rare for a -- let's call them "not formally trained" student to have the ability to self-critique and actually view her own ability with the eye of an instructor or professional.

In my experience, it breaks down to about 90% who think they are infinitely better than they really are, 5% who think they are WORSE than they really are, 3% who simply can't tell, and less than 2% who are actually have the full or partial ability of judging their own skills accurately.

A good teacher will help the student learn to self-correct and self-critique. A good teacher will help the student analyze performance and practice video and see her performance as the AUDIENCE sees it, instead of how she sees it in her own head.

There are a lot of us who are "self-taught" after a point. I teach the only "advanced" classes in my area. So who do I take class with? I take private lessons and attend regular workshops, but who do I "study with?" Well, basically I "study" all the material I've learned in the last decade -- from workshops, regular and private instructors, DVDs, performance videos, etc.

But the years of regular weekly classes and monthly private lessons ALLOW me to be self-taught this way. In those classes I learned how to analyze my own abilities, and critique myself. I learned how to make the most of my workshop notes and dvds. I learned how to really listen to the music and let it guide me. I learned where my education had gaps, and I'm working to fill in those gaps now.

The problem with too many solely self-taught dancers is this:

They don't know what it is they don't know.

Which is why we end up with people dancing completely against the music, or doing completely inappropriate things, or creating WTFusion pieces, or having no clue what this dance really is.

It's certainly one thing to bop around your house or the night club without any formal training. That kind of thing is fine -- it's what I do with guitar. (I have no interest in learning to play guitar any better than simply being able to play some CCR songs.) But I would NEVER ask a true guitar player to sit through one of my "performances" and I would NEVER attempt to teach it. I am not a serious musician, and I would never describe myself as such (at least for guitar.)

If you love something and want to go beyond the stage of "sitting in your living room playing Bad Moon Rising," then there is no excuse for not taking classes with an instructor who can actually make you a better "self-learner" down the road.

 

[Pirika Repun]

And I liked what you said about it being a cultural dance and people learning it through teaching themselves/watching others. Self-taught dancers may have to work a little harder to perfect their skill and yes, they'll probably need formal instruction eventually but, in my personal opinion as long as you have love and respect for your art and give it 100%, that's all that really makes a difference in the end.

Yes, Oriental dance is cultural and social dance, and many people in Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria and other East Mediterranean area people learn from their family, because they are grew up with the culture, music, and dane.

However, we are NOT. Most of us who live in the US, or Europe do not grew up with Middle Eastern culture, and we are not familiar with their music and dance too. So, even if you LOVE this art form, and read books, watch videos, but it will be totally different from "learn in the home (from watching family member & grew up in the culture) " than "learn in the video (for techniques)
"

I'm from totally different culture and I don't understand Arabic, and not familiar with Egyptian culture (even though know about Egypt archaeology) I really need to study with teacher who really knows culture, music and dance to understand the art form. Very fortunately I have great teacher who study culture of Egypt, dance and music over 25 years and still studying, I learn a lot from him, and every time I learn I realize that how much I still don't know a lot.

Of course I watch videos and learn some moves from other dancers, but if I don't have basic techniques, I can't do correct movement as from the video. I think some degree most people are self taught, but really need foundation from instructor who really knows this art form, so after that you can develop your own flavor or skills.

 

[Amulya]

There are extraordinarily few completely self-taught professional dancers. There are a few who are amazing and truly have studied as deeply as they can without an experienced guide. I don't think anyone has an issue with those dancers' skills as performers.

I wouldn't have an issue with those dancers, if they are good dancers, that's what matters. But I think these people will not advertise themselves as 'self taught dancer'. As mentioned before, it doesn't sound right, like the example of a self taught ballet dancer.

I understand it is very hard for some people to take lessons, just because there is nothing close by.
When I first wanted to learn belly dance (inspired by a performance I saw), there were no teachers around. I had to wait 2 years till I found one. I tried to do some movements to see if I could figure it out: I had no clue on how some movements were done, like hip drops, plus I couldn't remember all the things that dancer did. There was not youtube and I didn't know you could buy video's. So I ended up forgetting about it. I am glad I found a teacher 2 years later, but wish I would have found one earlier.

 

[LadyFatima]

It seems like there are a lot of mixed views on this topic.

I understand and respect everyone's various opinions on the subject and I appreciate you all being able to argue your point while keeping it civil and "Rated PG".:lol:

I still stand by my own personal opinion and views though.

I think that professional BD dancers and teachers are more critical and opinionated when it comes to self-taught dancers (and I don't blame them). One of the many things that I love and appreciate about this particular dance is that each and every dancer has something special and different that they bring to this art.

I've also noticed that (like with most of the arts) professionals in the biz have higher expectations than the non-professionals. When it comes to belly dancing, I think audience members and people unfamiliar with it will usually be less "picky" about things like technique and form. I've noticed that audiences care more about things like the energy of the performer.
I've read reviews people had on a few professional belly dancers they had watched while visiting Egypt: apparently several of the dancers had all the technique and none of the energy. . .

I'm all for having a professional teaching you how to correctly and effectively perfect your craft. There are some thing that you cannot learn on your own, and sometimes you need outside help to "straighten you out."

We all have different opinions on how building up one's skill for belly dancing should be. Like I said, I only intend to use belly dancing for exercise, entertainment and MAYBE some light performing.

I don't intend to teach the dance to others or become a professional. I'll probably take some formal lessons in the future, but at this time I have no immediate arrangements to do so. I'd rather have fun with it and learn what I can on my own for right now.


I know the difference between real belly dancing and someone just shaking their hips/butt around. I know the history of belly dance, I have full respect for the dance. I practice hard and I put everything I can into it, and I think that should mean just as must as it would if I were taking formal lessons.


I love it and it makes me happy. I don't have a problem with being "untrained" in form or technique.:dance:

 

[Kashmir]

Apparently these young women had at some point, proudly mentioned that they had taught themselves to belly dance without ever taking any formal classes or lessons. What bothered me was that instead of just giving constructive criticism on the technique of the self taught ladies, she gave a score of rude comments about how she just couldn't believe that anyone "could be proud of the fact that they've never taken any formal lessons in belly dancing."

First up - I disagree with free critiques. If the dancer was bad - and proud that she never paid a penny to get that way - why should a professional spend time critiquing her for free? However, she could have offered this a paid service

Next, I am actually confused why people would be proud of not being taught. Does it apply to anything else? Self taught brain surgery? lawyering? plumbing? And it is actually insulting - you may have spent 20 years and $100 000 learning this - but I can do it in 3 weeks for free. Sub-subtext - you are old and stupid and I'm young and hot.

Speaking from experience, I have been training myself in belly dancing for close to 8 months now. Never took a class, never had any one on one instruction other than watching tutorials on various techniques and just watching the performances of other dancers and imitating them.
<snip>
I fully realize that there are downsides to not having formal lessons, and until the time when I can actually get professional instruction I understand that my style and technique will look somewhat "untrained." But I really and truly love and respect the art of belly dancing; it's given me a sense of dignity, spirituality, and self love that I've never experienced before. It gives me an escape from a reality that I'm not always thrilled about living in.

All good stuff. It depends a lot on how physically and culturally aware you are and how good your source materials are. Two downsides which you probably know, is that spending time practicing bad technique is worse than no practice at all because it takes almost as long to untrain your muscles as to train them and self taught (or with a lousy teacher) you may not realize what you don't know so miss a big part out of your education. This leads to people with odd ideas about what is or isn't belly dance for instance. Then is these people start teaching ....:shok:

 

[Kashmir]

I think when we consider belly dance we must also realise and appreciate that it is a cultural dance, that people of those cultures teach themselves from watching others. It is not really something they have classes in. That is a more western idea. I learnt to dance from my family, and started taking lessons to learn to distinguish between styles.

With proper dedication and a touch of natural talent I believe that it is possible to become an amazing dancer, as long as you do enough proper research and gain experience of different styles through performances etc.

I suspect the self taught dancers have not spent over a decade listening to Middle Eastern music and watching rellies dance - or can speak the language and understand the songs.

Most of the big names did come from such a background. At 13-16 they were already good dancers - just from watching and copying (on a base of talent and hard work) - but that's watching and copying for over 10 years. Then they went on for 2-4 years serious training - whether in Mohammed Ali Street, Casino Opera or Reda/Firqa Kawmiyya. And evern after they made it they continued to work with mentors, coaches, choreographers. I cannot think of one that came from "self taught" to performance that didn't continue with training throughout her dancing career.

 

[gisela]

Next, I am actually confused why people would be proud of not being taught. Does it apply to anything else? Self taught brain surgery? lawyering? plumbing? :

It applies to painting and other art.
I have seen so many small exhibitions where I am thinking WTH is this??? And then I read a long statement on how the artist is self-taught and don't want to take classes or be tutored as to not inhibit their artistic "flow" or whatever. That always make me think, Ahaaa, so that's why it was so bad...
It might be snobbery in some eyes, but I actually find it a bit snobbish to talk like that and expect to be taken serious as an artist while painting big hearts with glitterglue on canvases (yes I have seen this) and at the same time dismissing people who have gone to art academies as stupid as they need classes to do what he/she can do without. Btw this has not been in galleries, usually in community buildings etc.

 

[Aniseteph]

I suspect the self taught dancers have not spent over a decade listening to Middle Eastern music and watching rellies dance - or can speak the language and understand the songs.in

Aha! Your post clarified what I've been trying to get straight in my head about the "they don't have lessons over there" thing. I don't think in that situation it is self-taught at all. Your teacher is the whole culture; you have examples to copy, you hear the music all the time, you get feedback - it's all around you.

It's a bit like saying you are self taught in speaking your native language. Yes you picked it up as you went along rather than having lessons, but self taught?? I don't think so.

To me self-taught is more about things that are not part of your everyday life that you opt to learn independently. By not having someone else teach you, you get the responsibility of picking your source materials, assessing yourself, setting standards and role models etc.

Aaand that is why you get the glitter glue hearts. Some people's standards are very...er... let's just say different.

 

[Darshiva]

I like glitter glue hearts... on cards from my nieces!

As an artist nothing gets up my nose so much as someone who pooh-poohs an education and then gets all bent out of shape when someone with said education tells them how to fix given work that 'oh, this doesn't work, teehee, but don't you love me because I am so clevar!'. Culture educated is one thing as is learning from a variety of non-teacher resources due to lack of funds/opportunities. Teaching yourself from youtube and then proclaiming greatness while getting all bent out of shape when someone gives you feedback is another. I can't deride those who learn from non-teacher resources because for a long time I was one of them. However, like me, people who have learned like this do go out of their way to supplement it with a live teacher wherever possible as soon as they can. This is what sets apart the 'self-taught' from the 'alternatively educated'.

Sorry for ranting, just this sort of thing really rankles me, both as a painter and a dancer.

 

[Letizia]

Wow what a provocative thread....Thank you Lady Fatima!

I have read all of the posts and have agreed with everything, how very diplomatic of me....I have had the privilege of taking classes over the years, but I have never really studied BD; started at age 5, had no idea what I was really being taught, but how cool that I could drop my hip, lift my hip and make my arms look like snakes!

I have been fortunate to have a family friend who is a pro in the biz and loved when she would visit, she studied in Iran when her husband was stationed there, she would put on her beautiful dress and dance....CAPTIVATING!

Age 21, after a short career with the ballet, I was fully engrossed in Ballroom, competing and teaching, I took up BD once again to relax and for exercise. Once again not studying, but loving every minute of it.

Now here I am at 43, I have invested a fortune in my dance education and I have now decided to really study BD, however I live in a small town and because I work, (coaching and choreographing Ballroom and Latin, and I'm a fitness instructor), have a family and due to the economy not much expendable cash right now, I am very limited to what I can do as far as formal instruction.

As a professional dancer of other dance forms, it would drive me crazy when someone would tell me that they were going to just buy the video and skip the one on one instruction. These poeple were just cheap and lacked any respect for the art. There is a difference between someone who really cannot and those who can afford to but do not feel that the respect is due the art or the artists to study. Ok, fine if you only want to learn to do a box step. But again, and this has also been said, even with something as simple as a box step, it can be dangerous, if you don't understand the proper techniques, postures, etc, and now let's add another body in the mix to really make a mess.

So now I am diving head first into this world that has been calling me my entire life, and I feel that with all of my dance training and knowledge, I have been dropped in the middle of the jungle with a survival pack of stuff I don't really know how to use. I don't know what direction to go in, Egypt, Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, or somewhere in between! So, I study, I read everything I can find about the cultures, which is a lifetime of study in itself, I am looking for a teacher, but again I am limited, temporarily, I hope.

My point is that whatever draws someone to BD it's great that they got here, and I know especially for those like Lady Fatima, that love of the dance will bring formal lessons when it is possible. There is a difference between those who have a bloated ego and won't take lessons and those who would love nothing more that to be able to formally study but just do not have the resourses.

I am not plannng to turn pro, I have lived that life long enough, I am hoping that somewhere out there the time will come that I can get involved with a school and danceray: But for now, I am loving learning, watching and being able to associate with accomplished artists. It is beyond a privilege to be accepted here, even as one who is just beginning the journey.

Whew!!!!!!!

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Now here I am at 43, I have invested a fortune in my dance education and I have now decided to really study BD, however I live in a small town and because I work, (coaching and choreographing Ballroom and Latin, and I'm a fitness instructor), have a family and due to the economy not much expendable cash right now, I am very limited to what I can do as far as formal instruction.

Want some un-requested advice? LOL.

Find a really good private instructor and take a monthly (or even every other month) private lesson for 1-2 hours. Mine lives over 4 hours away, but she's a gem. Two hours of private instruction is like 2 months (for me anyway) of weekly classes.

If you have a good beginners class in your area, go ahead and take it. I get a lot out of taking a friend's beginner class. It's a chance for you to focus on the music and really explore how the movements feel on you and how they fit the music.

A few workshops a year are a GREAT way to learn and get re-invigorated in dance. Don't expect a lot of personal correction, but you can actually learn a lot by watching other students and being exposed to somebody else's teaching and choreography.

Learn from performance videos. Study how the dancers interpret the music. Analyze what you like about the performances. Emulate the "character" of the dancer.

Videotape or webcam yourself often and review the footage a lot. You'd be amazed what you can learn between dancing the same song on a Monday, reviewing the tape, and then dancing it again on Friday!


Now that I'm pregnant, I'm REALLY looking out for money so I'm cutting back on a lot of my "extraneous" workshops and only going to a handful of ones that I think will really benefit me as a performer. I'm also working a lot with information I've already learned but failed to incorporate in my dancing.
Don't let money (or lack of it) put you off, but yeah, we have to be pretty careful about how we actually spend it nowadays!

 

[Letizia]

Actually, I am here, so any advise is requested and appreciated.

I have, just this morning, contacted the young lady who teaches in my area, and I requested information on private instruction. Come to find out, she is interested in learning B and L, so we will be able to work a trade, Yippee!!!..

In the beginning, she, our one local BD instructor, did not seem like she wanted me to take her beginner class, even though I tried to explain to her that I fit into the beginner category. I have only stuck my toe in the water and now would like to learn to swim.

Had it not been for this thread, I might still be waiting...so thank you all!:dance:

 

[Amulya]

Had it not been for this thread, I might still be waiting...so thank you all!:dance:

The one thing I forgot to mention: boards like these are valuable sources of information. The fact that you can share, ask, talk (about) things with dancers all over the world is something you would not be able to if there was no internet (or forums), it makes a huge difference.

 

[Imeera]

I do think that self-taught belly dancers have it harder than the rest of us simply because they have no real guidance, especially for a beginner. I was self taught until I found a class, and as a beginner it was very hard. I do much prefer lessons. But those who are completely self taught doesn't make them any less of a dancer. One of my favourite dancers is self taught and she is fantastic! I can understand why the woman was angry, but I think she took her prejudices too far. There is nothing wrong with a self-taught belly dancer!

 

[MissVega]

I say everyone learns differently, has different sources available to them etc. Isn't it best to just let the dancing speak for itself? You can watch a performer and see if they have technique, musicality, stage presence, feeling, rhythm etc.How they learned it isn't overly important if they are getting the job done on stage in my opinion.
There are dancers with limited resources who go onto dance well and dancers with access and training by top instructors who still aren't great and vice versa. While I agree most should take classes if they can and get involved in their local dance community, not just for the same of proper instruction but also for the social aspect and support in the learning process as well as objective (well hopefully objective) feedback.

 

[MariaAZ]

I can't really comment on the quality of dancing that self-taught dancers are capable of, but I DO believe that in our technological world a self-taught student has a pretty darned good chance of being at least adequate. We have DVDs that allow us to pause, rewind & replay and slow down segments of a lesson so we can see what we need to see. I don't know if it qualifies as "self taught", but the sites that offer not only recorded lessons but also video conferencing to allow a teacher to evaluate a student offer an additional level of home-based education that we never had before.

 

[Darshiva]

Maria, I think that self-taught stops when you start getting feedback from more experienced dancers, preferably credible teachers.

I would love to hear more on this topic from older dancers who have been around on the dance scene for several decades, because it hasn't always been about learning in a classroom setting, and often was about learning by watching, copying and listening to the feedback of your mentors ('that was good'/'that wasn't good, don't do it again', etc)

 

[Kashmir]

I DO believe that in our technological world a self-taught student has a pretty darned good chance of being at least adequate. We have DVDs that allow us to pause, rewind & replay and slow down segments of a lesson so we can see what we need to see.

Assuming the learner is capable to seeing - I have often had students that I have corrected who insisted that they were doing x or y (or not doing a or b). Sometimes I literally have been driven to video them and point out what I wanted them to change - even then, in one case, a student insisted she was doing what I was asking!! Another had a teaching DVD and had totally missed the point of the whole DVD! She totally ignored what was being taught and proudly demonstrated a performance that only had the music in common!

Then, self taught often don't know what to look for. I heard of a belly dance teacher - back in the 1980s - who suddenly discovered the shimmy. How many self-taught dancers know they should have some folkloric background - in whatever base style they have taught themselves? And although, educated and smart people will often be able to find out what they need to know, the sheer weight of crap found on the internet can lead people down odd paths.

 

[Ariadne]

Assuming the learner is capable to seeing

....

Then, self taught often don't know what to look for.

So true. That is why I ask if they already have a background in structured dance instruction of some kind. If someone has already been through the experience of being critiqued and trained in that way they are more likely to understand not only what is being done and which muscles are being used but how to recognize good posture and technique.

 

[MariaAZ]

How many self-taught dancers know they should have some folkloric background - in whatever base style they have taught themselves? And although, educated and smart people will often be able to find out what they need to know, the sheer weight of crap found on the internet can lead people down odd paths.

I agree totally about the crap factor on the Internet (speaking from experience in other aspects of life, not belly dance ) Part of our technological advance is that a serious "self-taught" student can find sites like this with a few simple keystrokes in a search engine. That's how I found it, while looking for tutorial type stuff to study. I watch videos on the forum that dancers have deemed as good, and voraciously read all the good threads here. It's kind of funny, because when I first started watching BD videos they all looked OK to me but after studying the ones that posters have praised, I'm beginning to be able to see differences.

The advent of Youtube has given people easy and instant access to a whole library of performances that they likely wouldn't have seen if they didn't have Internet access and/or services like Youtube didn't exist. And even more scarily, if they were brave enough they could post videos and request feedback (the sheer thought horrifies me, I'll take an in-person class instead thankyouverymuch.) To clarify... in my mind, self taught means not having taken any in-person classes where I share the same physical location of the teacher, so shooting a video and asking for critique in my mind qualifies as self-taught.

That being said, I don't have what it takes to go the self-taught route I would think it would take a really serious, savvy and dedicated self-taught student to advance their skills. I find in-person instruction most helpful, and I think I'm happier with my progress after taking a general bd class than I would be had I tried doing it on my own. However, over the summer I will be leaning on DVDs and this forum to advance my learning and hopefully will be able to continue class in the fall.