Offensive comments about self taught dancers
- Thread starter LadyFatima
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mahsati_janan
New member
This may be part of the confusion/disagreement that shows up when the topic of self-taught dancers is discussed. To me, as soon as you are asking for and accepting feedback from a professional level dancer, you now have a mentor/teacher. Your study may be self-directed at that point, but you are no longer wholly self-taught because you are asking for and receiving direction from a teacher. For my mind, a dancer who is self-taught has learned solely from videos, still images, and written sources. As soon as a professional level dancer's input enters the equation, a teacher/mentor has been engaged.
It's less clear-cut to me when a self-taught dancer asked the masses/friends/family for critique because you can't be certain that those people have any idea what to look for and may be telling the dancer incorrect information as often as correct information. I would still say it is no longer self-taught, but it is not as helpful as having an actual pro dancer to work with you.
An additional clarification, for me, this does not include those who grew up doing this dance in their homes. They are also not self-taught because they learned culturally from many sources. Most of the dancers do take classes and have teachers/mentors before becoming professional; they just have a head-start on someone starting from outside that experience.
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By this particular definition (as applied to anything really, not just bd) I would agree that a self-taught student would have a very, very, very difficult time advancing her or his skills as I truly believe there comes a time in just about every endeavor that an outside opinion is invaluable.
LadyFatima
New member
Miss Vega I think I like your replies the best:clap::clap:
(I don't mean to be rude to anyone else though)
But it seems like your comments really fit to the point that I'm trying to get across about self-taught dancers.
My whole initial complaint was that many belly dancers (usually the one's who are more experienced) have this general idea that "Self-taught dancers have NO idea what the heck they are doing and are going to make the rest of us look bad."
Keep in mind I'm refering to REAL self-taught dancers; the ones who put in hours of practice every day/week, doing the same moves over and over again, practicing with or without the help of a tutorial or instructional video.
Not the so called "self-taught" dancers who watch 2 or 3 Shakira videos and suddenly think they know how to belly dance. . .
Like you (Miss Vega) clearly said, and I agree: I think that the finished results or a dancer's actual performance and stage presence matters more than HOW they learned to dance in the first place. Let the dancing speak for itself.
In the end, I just want my audience to think
"Wow, she really danced with a lot of energy and skill and she looked like she was having fun the whole time!":dance:
Kashmir
New member
And I'd hope what you were doing was belly dance as well - assuming that is how you have been billed. Too often "self-taught" go down the path of drawing on instinct, emotion, even past lives to work out what "belly dance" is. When someone points out they aren'y belly dancing as such they get all defensive
Ariadne
Well-known member
That is the point however. mahsati is absolutely right, the instant you get professional instruction you are no longer self taught, mostly self taught perhaps which is still a considerable accomplishment but not "self taught". This is how most people see it and the reason I know of dancers to be offended when a great dancer claims to be self taught and they know that dancer has had privates along with their own studies. Think of the impression that leaves. Not only is the self claimed "self taught" dancer denying the very real influence of the pro that has helped polish them, taking all the credit for themselves, they are also subtly insinuating that the dancers who have taken classes are somehow less talented then they are, they didn't need classes after all. I am sure that these dancers don't mean it that way but that is still how it comes across especially to the general public. It is unfair to both the teacher and the other dancers who are being compared to them.
There is a huge difference between a mostly self-taught and an actual self-taught dancer. The second very rarely has the technique or skills necessary unless they have a separate background in another type of dance already and already understands how to "see" what they need to do.
Belly Love
New member
Let's face it- it's the performance that matters, not how it was learned.
With that said, it's extremely rare that someone can be 100% self-taught and be up to par with the best. I'm sure it happens, but every self-taught person wants to think that they are that jewel, and they most likely are not.
It was mentioned earlier by a couple of members that a self taught person needs to have a critical eye on themselves and needs to be able to see what they need to improve on. That is not only very true, but very difficult.
Interaction, critiqing, new ideas & a mixture of different ideas are what make people think & then improve. One does not usually come upon these things on their own.
With this said, I do think that it would drive some professionally trained dancers nuts to know that someone who is self taught is dancing at the same level they are. But everyone learns differently, that's just how it is.
There is definitely something extra special about someone who is self-taught in any area of expertise. There are guitar players, sculptors and other artists who are self taught and the best of the best in their fields. It's rare, and that rarity is what makes them special.
I am self taught thus far and while I believe that I'm a "natural" at belly dancing, there is no way I would be good enough to go anywhere near a stage right now. I expect in the future I will need some sort of formal training, but the moves I'm learning now I'm able to do on my own, so I figure, why pay someone? Also, I learn by imitating, not by being told how to do something... it's the way I've always been. If I wasn't able to learn on my own, I would definitely be taking classes- I'm just not at the point where I need it yet.
With that said, it's extremely rare that someone can be 100% self-taught and be up to par with the best. I'm sure it happens, but every self-taught person wants to think that they are that jewel, and they most likely are not.
It was mentioned earlier by a couple of members that a self taught person needs to have a critical eye on themselves and needs to be able to see what they need to improve on. That is not only very true, but very difficult.
Interaction, critiqing, new ideas & a mixture of different ideas are what make people think & then improve. One does not usually come upon these things on their own.
With this said, I do think that it would drive some professionally trained dancers nuts to know that someone who is self taught is dancing at the same level they are. But everyone learns differently, that's just how it is.
There is definitely something extra special about someone who is self-taught in any area of expertise. There are guitar players, sculptors and other artists who are self taught and the best of the best in their fields. It's rare, and that rarity is what makes them special.
I am self taught thus far and while I believe that I'm a "natural" at belly dancing, there is no way I would be good enough to go anywhere near a stage right now. I expect in the future I will need some sort of formal training, but the moves I'm learning now I'm able to do on my own, so I figure, why pay someone? Also, I learn by imitating, not by being told how to do something... it's the way I've always been. If I wasn't able to learn on my own, I would definitely be taking classes- I'm just not at the point where I need it yet.
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Greek Bonfire
Well-known member
The first nine months of my own bellydancing I learned from videos as I did not know of any teachers. I learned a lot and in fact, I have continued my training from videos in addition to workshops and classes over the years. I can't say enough about classroom training but sometimes you need more.; in fact, I learned things from videos that I doubt I would ever have learned in a classroom, partly because I can do the steps and combos over and over again, something a classroom couldn't accommodate. Also, some of the most well known international stars are very much self taught, most notably my friend Soraya of New Jersey comes to mind and she is a very well sought after dancer predominantly in the Arab world.
BellaBohemian
New member
Because in some fields like musical instruments, drawing, painting, racing, and extreme sports its pretty much bragging rights if you are really good and are self-taught. Like others have been saying. Its just kind of a way of saying "Im naturally talented."
I also started out as being self-taught. Mostly because I was too young and poor to even find something lol. I instead got videos from the library or bought them with the little money I earned for 5years before I even considered taking a class. Yeah I did learn a few things that even now (another 5years after when I began taking classes) I don't have to work on so much. But I could have NEVER been able to get to a point where I would have had the mind to get paid to preform anything I learned. I think after my 3rd year of DVDs and VHS I hit a brick wall.
Learning from classes doesn't just give you the critique that you can't always give yourself, but it (for me) gives the confidence needed. Even little things are helpful, like my first performance my teacher told me to be sure to wear chap-stick or put Vaseline on my lips because smiling in the hot summer sun while dancing will dry out your mouth and lips in the worst way. I never would have considered that, I probably would have put on some lipstick and had my lips stuck to my teeth midway through a dance.
I think in a way most dancers are "mostly" self taught though. We go home and practice and drill in front of mirrors for hours, record ourselves and critique until we feel everything is cool. I know a lot (if not all) of us use DVDs/VHS at some point, and can even learn new combos, stretches, drills and etc. that we may use later on. As artists I believe we need a healthy dose of both personal learning and peer learning. If you only practice in class you may be inclined to forget some choreography here and there, or you might not work up enough muscle memory. The same goes for being completely self-taught, you might not be comfortable at a hafla or you might not know how to react when someone tries to put a tip in your belt.
My moto for dance:: There is always room for improvement!!!
Everyone else is right, blogs are personal opinions, don't let hers get to you!
You seem to be on the right path, in fact what you're doing is what my teacher recommended to me when I told her I wanted to make BD my career. If you can't afford a full on class, check out a workshop sometime. Take a friend who has a car, even if they have never danced before they may find it fun! Good luck to you! :dance:
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LadyFatima
New member
Let's face it- it's the performance that matters, not how it was learned.
With that said, it's extremely rare that someone can be 100% self-taught and be up to par with the best. I'm sure it happens, but every self-taught person wants to think that they are that jewel, and they most likely are not.
It was mentioned earlier by a couple of members that a self taught person needs to have a critical eye on themselves and needs to be able to see what they need to improve on. That is not only very true, but very difficult.
Interaction, critiqing, new ideas & a mixture of different ideas are what make people think & then improve. One does not usually come upon these things on their own.
With this said, I do think that it would drive some professionally trained dancers nuts to know that someone who is self taught is dancing at the same level they are. But everyone learns differently, that's just how it is.
There is definitely something extra special about someone who is self-taught in any area of expertise. There are guitar players, sculptors and other artists who are self taught and the best of the best in their fields. It's rare, and that rarity is what makes them special.
I am self taught thus far and while I believe that I'm a "natural" at belly dancing, there is no way I would be good enough to go anywhere near a stage right now. I expect in the future I will need some sort of formal training, but the moves I'm learning now I'm able to do on my own, so I figure, why pay someone? Also, I learn by imitating, not by being told how to do something... it's the way I've always been. If I wasn't able to learn on my own, I would definitely be taking classes- I'm just not at the point where I need it yet.
I definitely agree with your reply, especially about the part that everyone learns differently: some people can only pick up things by being given personal instruction, and some can learn simply by watching others and building up their skill on their own. Some people need both. I don't think there's anything wrong with either one.
I think when it comes to SERIOUS self taught dancers like us, we know and understand that we need extra, extra practice when it comes to our technique, and we don't try to push ourselves into thinking that we're ready for live stage performances (becaue I know I'm no where close to being ready for that either:lol
I also agree with what you said about why bothering to pay someone else to show you moves that you can learn on your own. (No offense to anyone out there who actually teaches classes.)
Like someone else mentioned a few days ago, belly dancing classes are hard to come by in certain areas.
To be completely honest, even though I know there are many advantages to being formally taught by an actually professional instructor, knowing how I learn and pick up on things, I also think I learn better by simply imitating (over and over and over again until I get it right) rather than just being told "Do this move like so. . .now like this. . .etc, etc." Because what good is learning how to dance in a class, if I still can't get the moves right when I'm practicing on my own, you know?:think:
Greek Bonfire
Well-known member
Anyone who says they are self taught and are ready to go out there after six weeks is totally wrong. There is such a thing as being self taught which still takes years, same as class instruction. As for myself, I sought out videos when I couldn't find teachers who would take me to the next level. Let's face it - for many reasons, there are teachers who will take you to the next level but also many who won't because they either can't or they don't want to. So for myself I've needed both. But even with being partly self taught and with classroom instruction, I am still far from being perfected. BellaBohemian has it right - we are much self taught because we practice hundreds to thousands of hours.
Kashmir
New member
If you don't put those hours in you will never be any good! But I wouldn't call that "self taught". To me to be totally self taught means no other input - not a single class or video or watching aunty at the hafla. Next level is to have never had a single person, ever, show you a move or interpretation or comment on your dance. Once you get into a few classes then follow up with teaching videos and the occassional workshop you have moved way beyond "self taught".
Belly Love
New member
I don't see how someone saying they are self taught is actually saying "You are old and stupid and I'm young and hot".
They are just explaining that they had no training by anyone.
I have to disagree. Self taught means you never had anyone specifically teach you. How can one teach themselves an actual bd move if they have never seen it done somewhere else first?
I learn by mostly watching other dancers just dance. Occaisonally, I watch a Youtube video on how to do a specific move, but essentially, I'm still doing it on my own. I don't have anyone critiquing me on every move and explaining everything to me.
If a guitarist were to read a book on "How To Play The Guitar" and only learns by the book and his own practicing, he is still considered self-taught.
I'm sure there are varying degrees of being self taught & many shades of gray, but I would have to say that someone who does not have a consistent teacher and figures out the vast majority of the dance on their own is someone who is self taught.
Sidenote: I greatly admire those who can teach themselves to do something and do it well without the help of a teacher or formal training where it would normally be required for most people.
I taught myself how to ride a bike & swim when I was a kid. I made up my own practice techniques and finally got it- all by myself without anyone showing me how to do it. I was always embarassed about it then, because I thought I was "less than" for not having anyone to teach me. But now that I look back on it, it was pretty cool of me to teach myself how to swim- especially since I was terrified of the water!
mahsati_janan
New member
There is a pretty big difference; I am guessing you didn't teach yourself to be a professional cyclist or professional swimmer, though, so it isn't really comparable. No one is saying that people can't learn the basics on their own to dance socially or even be a gifted amateur. It is only that if one wants to be a professional in almost any field, they will need the guidance of people proficient in that field at some point. No matter how many books people read on surgery, they can't become medical doctors without the proper education. Will it give you a head-start in med school? Of course it will, but it won't be enough to be professional.
The arts are a little different. You can be incredibly gifted, but without good training, a self-taught dancer runs the risk of training themselves to do moves in a way that is harmful to their body long-term. Being self-taught is a limitation if a dancer chooses to never go beyond that because she will likely think she has 'learned it all' in a short time when she may have only just scratched the surface. Even the most gifted naturals usually find a dance mentor, coach, or teacher who can give them feedback and critique. A teacher can see a student in whole, with years of experience, and can tell the student that their weight placement is uneven, their extension needs work, their posture is likely to cause injuries, and dozens of other very important things that a self-taught dancer may not be able to critique in themselves because they don't know everything they need to watch for.
Are there fabulous self-taught dancers? Yes. I know a couple who were self-taught for years. I met them in workshops because they realized that you have to reach out in order to continue your education. They aren't self-taught anymore, but they achieved a lot of skill on their own before seeking assistance. Are there any terrible self-taught dancers? Yes. I have known quite a few. Some of whom have had to stop dancing even as a hobby because of long-term injuries caused from poor dance posture and technique. When a student chooses not to engage the assistance of a skilled teacher, then they are taking their chances. For some, the gamble will pay off. For most, it will not.
shiradotnet
Well-known member
First, a quick comment to help everyone see where I'm coming from.... I live in a part of the U.S. with a lot of rural areas, where qualified belly dance teachers are sparse. Therefore, I understand that sometimes a person who wants to learn this dance form really does need to do the best she can through video. I think it's better to learn what you can on your own than it is to give up in despair.
So, kudos to all who put in serious, focused self-study with videos, forum discussions, etc. (But thumbs down to people who simply mimic Shakira and decide that qualifies them to call themselves "belly dancers.")
I think one pitfall that strikes many self-learners is the belief that if you figure out how to do moves, you then have "learned" how to belly dance. But learning moves is like learning the alphabet - it's a place to start, but you don't really know how to dance/write until you learn ways to fit them together logically into words, sentences, and (ultimately) poetry.
I think many people are quite capable of learning moves from videos, without the aid of a teacher. I also think some people are able to imitate a choreography/performance they see on video without the aid of a teacher. But it's much harder to create art without some level of mentoring. I think it's possible, but very difficult.
That said, there are too many teachers who believed they had learned everything worth knowing once they learned their "alphabet" of basic moves. But they stopped the learning process and started teaching before they learned musicality, transitions, emotional projection, artistic interpretation, etc. They can't teach these things because they don't know these things themselves. Studying with such a teacher wouldn't be much better than working with videos at home. Such a teacher probably isn't going to be able to provide her students with the tools to create art.
So, I think being self-taught is at least as good as studying with an unqualified teacher. The key is to realize that sooner or later you'll need a qualified teacher to help you take your dancing beyond the level that can be achieved through self study. The trick will be finding one who is advanced enough herself to help you keep growing.
So, kudos to all who put in serious, focused self-study with videos, forum discussions, etc. (But thumbs down to people who simply mimic Shakira and decide that qualifies them to call themselves "belly dancers.")
I think one pitfall that strikes many self-learners is the belief that if you figure out how to do moves, you then have "learned" how to belly dance. But learning moves is like learning the alphabet - it's a place to start, but you don't really know how to dance/write until you learn ways to fit them together logically into words, sentences, and (ultimately) poetry.
I think many people are quite capable of learning moves from videos, without the aid of a teacher. I also think some people are able to imitate a choreography/performance they see on video without the aid of a teacher. But it's much harder to create art without some level of mentoring. I think it's possible, but very difficult.
That said, there are too many teachers who believed they had learned everything worth knowing once they learned their "alphabet" of basic moves. But they stopped the learning process and started teaching before they learned musicality, transitions, emotional projection, artistic interpretation, etc. They can't teach these things because they don't know these things themselves. Studying with such a teacher wouldn't be much better than working with videos at home. Such a teacher probably isn't going to be able to provide her students with the tools to create art.
So, I think being self-taught is at least as good as studying with an unqualified teacher. The key is to realize that sooner or later you'll need a qualified teacher to help you take your dancing beyond the level that can be achieved through self study. The trick will be finding one who is advanced enough herself to help you keep growing.
Ariadne
Well-known member
Back to the original point of the thread...
You know it occurs to me that all that any of us can give is our general opinion with the links to the video's that were being criticized. Maybe she was right, maybe she wasn't. If you can give links to them then maybe you can find out. Otherwise this is all an argument on semantics and is turning into a discussion on the value of individual study which I doubt very much anyone would disagree with.
You know it occurs to me that all that any of us can give is our general opinion with the links to the video's that were being criticized. Maybe she was right, maybe she wasn't. If you can give links to them then maybe you can find out. Otherwise this is all an argument on semantics and is turning into a discussion on the value of individual study which I doubt very much anyone would disagree with.
Kashmir
New member
I guess that make me self taught too then
- once past the alphabet stage, with the exception of a few private lessons - I've never received critique. I attend mostly Egyptian workshops so movement breakdown is the exception rather than the rule.But realistically, I'm not. No critique or breakdown - but I watch how my teachers move. I listen when they explain what the music or the lyrics or the style is about. Then I work on including into my own dance - no one does that for me. It is my hours of practice, observing my own dance on video and research but that doesn't make me self taught. That just makes me a dancer.
Aniseteph
New member
Ooh, cupcakes - the one with the tattoo is so cute!
More virtual rep for Kashmir.
If Jenna or Neena & Veena or Jillina showed you on a DVD, you were still taught, surely? Maybe you learnt wrong and have the disadvantage of no feedback/correction, maybe you nailed it, but you were still taught by someone else.
To me, self-taught (when it isn't something that's part of your usual culture that you pick up because it's all around you) is the dancer who has learnt solely by watching performance from an audience viewpoint; where no one has ever shown you correct posture or how to do a hip drop, you just worked it out for yourself. IMO it's a minority who would work it out right - the occasional natural maybe, and people with other dance experience who have skills in analysing movement.
More virtual rep for Kashmir.
If Jenna or Neena & Veena or Jillina showed you on a DVD, you were still taught, surely? Maybe you learnt wrong and have the disadvantage of no feedback/correction, maybe you nailed it, but you were still taught by someone else.
To me, self-taught (when it isn't something that's part of your usual culture that you pick up because it's all around you) is the dancer who has learnt solely by watching performance from an audience viewpoint; where no one has ever shown you correct posture or how to do a hip drop, you just worked it out for yourself. IMO it's a minority who would work it out right - the occasional natural maybe, and people with other dance experience who have skills in analysing movement.
LadyFatima
New member
I can't rep you for that Kashmir, but you deserve a rep for it. So have a cupcake instead!
Those cupcakes look AWESOME!!!!:lol::clap::lol::clap:
How 'bout that, belly cupcakes for my belly. . . .:dance: